Transit Fantasies

[deasine]

By the way, for my SkyTrain Expo Line extension, it follows the map on the Provincial Transportation Plan, which continues down Fraser Highway and turns to the east at the Hydro ROW just past 96 Avenue. Some of you were saying I used 100th Avenue and I didn't think that was the case.

[windscar]

Originally Posted by deasine

It's Microsoft Visio as eduardo88 stated above.

I need to read abit slower LOL, Thanks I think I'll give it a try.

[paradigm4]

Originally Posted by deasine

I don't have enough time to reduce the maps but here you go... 2040: A Vision for Metro Vancouver.

1. SkyTrain Network
2. West Coast Express Network
3. LRT Network
4. Streetcar Network
5. RapidBus Newtork

Note that I didn't properly draw the RapidBus R17 route but it actually goes into Tsawwassen.

Really great maps Deasine! But now for some constructive criticism

It just really seems more like a 202 or 2030 vision then 2040. The routes and technologies you propose here are quite easily achievable - I should hope that our system is beyond this by 2040. I just feel there should be more rail and less bus, I suppose. And definitely more streetcars.

What streets downtown do the streetcars run on anyway? From the looks of it, I was guessing Hastins/Pender, Robson, and.... Davie or Pacific.

Anyways, great work!

[fever]

The route you've chosen for the Surrey WCE would be slower to downtown than transferring to the expo line at Scott Road. It would only make sense as a Surrey-Coquitlam connection or a Surrey-Maple Ridge connection.

And why no direct connection between Nordel/Scott Road and Surrey Central?

Otherwise, it looks good.

[mrjauk]

Really nice maps, Deasine.

Why is it, though, that there is never any mention of potential skytrain/subway service to/from the West End? Is this not the densest residential community in North America.

Extend one of the lines that go into DT (Richmond/YVR, M-Line, Exop) to loop through the West End and back.

For example, rather than end the Expo line at Waterfront, have it continue west with stations at Coal Harbour, Denman/Stanley Park, English Bay, Burrard/Davie and then back to Waterfront.

Originally Posted by deasine

I don't have enough time to reduce the maps but here you go... 2040: A Vision for Metro Vancouver.

1. SkyTrain Network
2. West Coast Express Network
3. LRT Network
4. Streetcar Network
5. RapidBus Newtork

Note that I didn't properly draw the RapidBus R17 route but it actually goes into Tsawwassen.

[paradigm4]

Originally Posted by mrjauk

Really nice maps, Deasine.

Why is it, though, that there is never any mention of potential skytrain/subway service to/from the West End? Is this not the densest residential community in North America.

Extend one of the lines that go into DT (Richmond/YVR, M-Line, Exop) to loop through the West End and back.

For example, rather than end the Expo line at Waterfront, have it continue west with stations at Coal Harbour, Denman/Stanley Park, English Bay, Burrard/Davie and then back to Waterfront.

In terms of cost, I don't think that would make fiscal sense at all. As nice as it would be to have a SkyTrain station at Stanley Park or the West End, it's just not doable with the other priorities of the region. The West End is pretty well serve as it is with the 5 and 6 trolleys, which I would like to see become a streetcar service (and I believe deasine would as well, as indicated in his maps). Such a service would be most user friendly and appropriate for the neighbourhood, and would provide a reasonably efficient and comfortable trip to SkyTrain connections.

Not to mention, have a tiny SkyTrain loop around the Burrard peninsula isn't exactly the best use of the technology. It's more appropriate for streetcar or light rail, IMO.

[fever]

One thing they could do is shorten the 5/6 route by removing the part that nobody uses between Robson and Cordova, and running it down Homer instead. Then it would form a simple loop on Robson, Homer, Davie, and Denman with connections to the Canada line at Homer/Davie and the Expo line and Canada line at Robson/Granville. The connection into the CBD and to Waterfront would be provided by the Canada line or any of the trolleys on Granville.


I remember a map from a pre-Expo line rapid transit study that had a streetcar/LRT line down Nelson to Denman. I imagine a streetcar line on the 5/6 route would operate in mixed traffic like a Toronto streetcar. It might help to alleviate overcrowding but it wouldn't be any faster. A Nelson line could be separated from traffic, but there aren't any stations near Nelson on the Expo line or Canada line.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by fever

The route you've chosen for the Surrey WCE would be slower to downtown than transferring to the expo line at Scott Road. It would only make sense as a Surrey-Coquitlam connection or a Surrey-Maple Ridge connection.

Well you know I should've just continued the line to Coquitlam. To me, I think there should be a trial interurban route first... which follows the line I drew on the map. As the project becomes successful, you could then lengthen the line across the newly constructed Pattullo Bridge to Braid, and then to Coquitlam Central via railways and ROWs. Of course, you could even have the Spirit of the Fraser (as I call it) continue to downtown. Now with this, it isn't going to be faster to travel on the WCE from Surrey, but I much rather concentrate on moving people directly from Surrey to the Tricities as there isn't any direct connection at the moment (or planned in the future).

Originally Posted by paradigm4

Really great maps Deasine! But now for some constructive criticism

It just really seems more like a 202 or 2030 vision then 2040. The routes and technologies you propose here are quite easily achievable - I should hope that our system is beyond this by 2040. I just feel there should be more rail and less bus, I suppose. And definitely more streetcars.

I suppose you are right. I would hope to have more LRT and Streetcars.

[QUOTE=paradigm4;4017060What streets downtown do the streetcars run on anyway? From the looks of it, I was guessing Hastins/Pender, Robson, and.... Davie or Pacific.[/quote]

I just realized not all the streetcar routes will work... so I will change something the next time I do another version HAHA.

Originally Posted by mrjauk

Why is it, though, that there is never any mention of potential skytrain/subway service to/from the West End? Is this not the densest residential community in North America.

It's not the densest residential community in NA... I think Manhattan is actually denser. It would be second densest for sure. There are steetcar routes that surround the West End on my map.

I actually got a lot of the streetcar ideas from the existing streetcar network in Vancouver.




It's amazing (in a bad way) to see how many streetcar rails we've ripped off or paved over.

[deasine]

There. I refined the streetcar network: (Vancouver side)



Sorry my colours bleeded a little together when it converted to image format... but you can see the Arbutus Streetcar Route, Granville Island Route, and Great Northern Way Route. This map is quite messy with all the stops too =(

Arbutus Streetcar will follow existing tracks on Arbutus and run with the Granville Island Streetcar between Granville Island and Sitka Square. It will then turn North onto a new streetcar and cyclist bridge then onto Pacific Street, where it will then turn on Seymore Street (Homer for the opposite direction), and then on Robston Street where it will share tracks with the Hastings LRT. The rest is quite self explanatory.

Granville Streetcar... pretty obvious.. exact same thing as the City of Vancouver downtown streetcar proposal, except extended to Vanier Park. In the future, it can use Cornwall Avenue (West Fourth might be a little too steep for steetcars) and then link up with Macdonald STN of the Evergreen Line.

Great Northern Way route runs from GNW STN onto Quebec Street, then Pacfic Blvd where it will share tracks with the Arbutus Route, and continue on Pacific ST, turn on Beach Avenue, then onto Denman St.

[worldwide]

looks great and the graphics quality is excellent.

one thing i would say is that your proposed crossing of false creek is really very close to the cambie bridge and the canada line. i would propose to have it run across the burrard bridge instead where it would meet the granville island line at approximately west 7th.

on the kerrisdale line i think that the 12th avenue station is overkill as it really is a short walk to broadway (3 very short blocks)
and there should be either a stop at 33rd or cypress, but not both. the distances between those is negligible.

it would be good to have a north south connector somewhere in the downtown peninsula. those lines are very segregated which means the system would be harder to use (transfer to other mode)

streetcar on main to 49th, or at least 33rd, would be great. and on the drive

also... Seymour is spelled incorrectly and by homer i think you mean howe (or hornby, but thats backwards down a one way)

[deasine]

Originally Posted by worldwide

one thing i would say is that your proposed crossing of false creek is really very close to the cambie bridge and the canada line. i would propose to have it run across the burrard bridge instead where it would meet the granville island line at approximately west 7th.

I actually was considering Burrard Street as an option... and it was shown on the last streetcar concept. Personal preference for me, but I rather see a new separate cycling, pedestrian, and streetcar bridge in between Granville and Cambie.

I'm seeing a low profile bridge in a shape of a moon crescent from the east side of the soccer field at Charleston Park curving outwards, then inwards to the extended Beach Crescent, or in between the basketball court and the tennis courts west of David Lam Park. Streetcars will then turn right on Homer Street and then left on Pacific Street.

Evidently I need my coffee... because if it follows that alignment... Davie Street is impossible... scatch that. Rename that to Homer St and have a Davie St stop before that.

Originally Posted by worldwide

on the kerrisdale line i think that the 12th avenue station is overkill as it really is a short walk to broadway (3 very short blocks)
and there should be either a stop at 33rd or cypress, but not both. the distances between those is negligible.

I knew someone would say this. The reason it's the stops are so closely spaced is that I want to replace the 16 trolley with this streetcar. I don't see the point of continuing another electric trolley with a streetcar, or even replacing it with a diesel running side by side with this line. The large intersections (stops) are quite close together anyway, so plugging in smaller stops in between won't make a big difference. Also, I would want a clear distinction between LRT and Streetcar. Since the 16 trolley is replaced with the streetcar, and the streetcar only goes up to 41st Avenue, an extended 100 bus from Marine Dr STN, turning onto Hudson Street, then on 70th Avenue, back on Granville St, and then onto 64th Avenue, and then follow the current 16 Trolley Bus route, then terminating at 41st Avenue/Kerrisdale. Buses would probably be every 15 minutes during peek hours, which would be more than adequate as there is LRT running there. Oh wait... I just realized I didn't post the rest of the updates HAHA I do need my coffee... we will do that when I have everything ready.

Originally Posted by worldwide

streetcar on main to 49th, or at least 33rd, would be great. and on the drive

also... Seymour is spelled incorrectly and by homer i think you mean howe (or hornby, but thats backwards down a one way)

I was thinking of a Main and Victoria streetcar (I actually took out the Victoria streetcar on this map). I just felt that they at least have an electric trolley (articulated) and it would be better to spend money on building a new cyclist bridge, and primarily focusing the streetcar in downtown. Of course in the long run, the Main and Victoria could be upgraded. I would also like to see more development projects around Main Street corridor and Victoria Drive before they get their rail transit. I know there's that development off Q.E. Park around 33rd Avenue with lots of social housing but god knows when that will be built.

Oh my... spelling mistakes now HAHA. I meant Howe. I will correct all this next time around.

[worldwide]

it would probably be a lot cheaper to build a new bridge if it didnt have to support the weight of a streetcar. on the other hand it sounds like a great idea logistically. my preference would be from vanier park to beach/thurlow cause i live on the westside, but this option would work best for most people. and the gradients arent too crazy in that area of downtown, like they are at beach/thurlow. crazy steep hills for bikes/peds up to oak and broadway area... but thats life in vancouver

[windscar]

Very nice deasine, I'm quite jealous of your mad, professional looking map making skills I have started my own map using google earth, about 50% done and I will post it if anyone interested. Also I have a Vancouver trollywire overhead map (2003 era) (not made by me), if anyone would like a copy I'll upload that here as well.

[jlousa]

I know I'm in the minority on this, but I'm acutally against a massive expansion of the streetcar program. I feel the current proposal of Phases 0-3 with a possible extension along the Abrutus line wrapping back to New West station would be the max I could support. Streetcar lines are at a major disadvantage to trolleys when travelling along atgrade as they can't move around obstacles. Calgary's LRT has numerous delays due to accidents that it can't move around, unlike a trolley which could just switch lanes, or even disconnect and drive around the problem. I'd rather see an increase of the trolley system and more of the longer buses where demand warrants.

[fever]

A bridge for cyclists to the base of Oak would be poorly used. The grade on Oak is 22%. It's closed to cars at the first hint of ice, it's hard to walk up, and it's impossible for most people to push a bike up. It could work if it was a smooth gradient from the north side of False Creek to Broadway. It would actually be pretty cool. Maybe something similar (and more realistically) could be done with Bute (to Vanier park) as an alternative to the Burrard bridge lane reallocation.

[worldwide]

Originally Posted by fever

A bridge for cyclists to the base of Oak would be poorly used. The grade on Oak is 22%. It's closed to cars at the first hint of ice, it's hard to walk up, and it's impossible for most people to push a bike up. It could work if it was a smooth gradient from the north side of False Creek to Broadway. It would actually be pretty cool. Maybe something similar (and more realistically) could be done with Bute (to Vanier park) as an alternative to the Burrard bridge lane reallocation.

there is that ped bridge at laurel?... or spruce? or in that area that brings you at a decent grade up to west 7th. i have ridden up that hill on a mellow gear on my 24 speed, but my fixie barely makes it up yukon, so i wouldnt even try. its not too hard to work around the hills for an easier gradient however most people would probably choose an alternate route.

imo the best way to get to broadway from downtown is:
howe > granville bridge > fir offramp

i dont take that way too often. 5 times a week max. im usually going to cambie and 10th area. you have to go hard to keep up or you get muscled by cars. luckilly if you hit the green wave on howe you usually start out with enough speed to power the uphill.

[fever]

Yeah. It's at Laurel. Spruce has a stairway to get between 6th and 7th (Choklit park). The grade's ok a few blocks east of Oak, but that could be fixed with some improvements to the Cambie street bridgehead. I agree with you about the howe-fir route (there's almost no hill). I even posted a map showing how that could work (as a separated bike route) in one of the biking threads a few months ago.

When I was talking about regional rail (to switch gears), these are the types of trains I was talking about, Bombardier Talents. They can go 140 km/h or 160 km/h.

Mille Sabords

[deasine]

Granville bridge is really bad for cycling. I thought that there is at least the Burrard St Bridge (which will be receiving it's lane closure according to Robertson... I guess he's too worried about Olympic Village now).

The only reason I put a bridge around Oak Street is that I think there should be easy an accessible access from the Seawall. None of the bridges, other than Cambie, has any access so that pedestrians can just go across the False Creek from the seawall... and Cambie has a gajillion stairs to climb up. For there to be accessible access, one must walk a bit to the bridge offramps. You did bring up a good point about where no one would be biking up to Broadway using that route... With regards to the Vanier Park to Bute connection, I would much prefer the second deck of the Burrard Street Bridge to be used. The streetcar, however, won't be able to use this as nicely... since it has to detour all the way around (the gradients on the North side of Burrard is way too steep for any rail vehicle to climb up)

Originally Posted by jlousa

I know I'm in the minority on this, but I'm acutally against a massive expansion of the streetcar program. I feel the current proposal of Phases 0-3 with a possible extension along the Abrutus line wrapping back to New West station would be the max I could support. Streetcar lines are at a major disadvantage to trolleys when travelling along atgrade as they can't move around obstacles. Calgary's LRT has numerous delays due to accidents that it can't move around, unlike a trolley which could just switch lanes, or even disconnect and drive around the problem. I'd rather see an increase of the trolley system and more of the longer buses where demand warrants.

I don't mind Streetcars... only for certain routes. For me, I'm still not convinced about streetcars replacing routes like the Main Street Trolley or Victoria St Trolley, which is why I dropped it in my last version. For routes like Arbutus, it's fine because there is a ROW anyway.

[fever]

Yeah, I meant taking it on a slow gradient from Vanier park to connect up the hill at Davie or Harwood, wherever the hill starts to flatten out, connecting a couple blocks inland much like the Burrard bridge does.

[worldwide]

the streetcar would probably have to go east/west on pacific for a few blocks regardless if one of those two options were chosen.

granville bridge is pretty deadly, but its by far the fastest way to get to broadway. fever. i would love to see your map if you could link me. thanks