Halifax Stadium Discussion

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

I would much rather have HRM donate the $10 million they are planning to waste on a useless bike flyover ramp to this project.

But think of the children Keith.......

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

I would much rather have HRM donate the $10 million they are planning to waste on a useless bike flyover ramp to this project.

Was in town last week and heard a radio talk show discussing the stadium and the jist of the conversation was: If Haligonians had to choose between funding a hospital or a stadium they'd likely choose the hospital.

It confuses me that the potential ownership group is putting deadlines on city staff when they themselves have failed to provide any government official at any level with any sort of financial figures whatsoever. The entire process feels like a wait-and-see from the ownership group. Government officials need dollar figures - that's how budget allotments work at all levels of government. If you're going into a meeting with a government official you need to have firm dollar figures as an ask. The group isn't doing a good enough job of convincing councillors and provincial politicians of the potential benefits of a stadium and seemingly haven't done the legwork on the ground with residents, either.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Was in town last week and heard a radio talk show discussing the stadium and the jist of the conversation was: If Haligonians had to choose between funding a hospital or a stadium they'd likely choose the hospital.

It confuses me that the potential ownership group is putting deadlines on city staff when they themselves have failed to provide any government official at any level with any sort of financial figures whatsoever. The entire process feels like a wait-and-see from the ownership group. Government officials need dollar figures - that's how budget allotments work at all levels of government. If you're going into a meeting with a government official you need to have firm dollar figures as an ask. The group isn't doing a good enough job of convincing councillors and provincial politicians of the potential benefits of a stadium and seemingly haven't done the legwork on the ground with residents, either.

When your product has dubious value you stay away from full disclosure. If you have a great product the sales job is a lot easier.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Colin May

When your product has dubious value you stay away from full disclosure. If you have a great product the sales job is a lot easier.

Requoted for truth.

Obfuscation is a sign of a poorly crafted business plan. In the absence of an impressive business plan, you use fancy graphics and pretty girls to spice up your presentation and dazzle your audience. Maybe they won't notice the obvious flaws in what you are proposing.........

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Requoted for truth.

Obfuscation is a sign of a poorly crafted business plan. In the absence of an impressive business plan, you use fancy graphics and pretty girls to spice up your presentation and dazzle your audience. Maybe they won't notice the obvious flaws in what you are proposing.........

There are some valid reasons to keep secrets. Cities normally hold in camera meetings about a variety of issues. Land deals are one classic example. It's good to keep your options secret until you have secured the land you need. If it gets out that you have no alternatives, land owners are free to charge much higher prices.

I generally agree that now's the time for more public disclosure though, and that too much secrecy could kill the entire project.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

In the absence of an impressive business plan, you use fancy graphics and pretty girls to spice up your presentation and dazzle your audience. Maybe they won't notice the obvious flaws in what you are proposing.........

Sounds like most presentations made by staff and activist groups to get their hands on public funds at HRM Council.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by JHikka

It confuses me that the potential ownership group is putting deadlines on city staff when they themselves have failed to provide any government official at any level with any sort of financial figures whatsoever. The entire process feels like a wait-and-see from the ownership group. The group isn't doing a good enough job of convincing councillors and provincial politicians of the potential benefits of a stadium and seemingly haven't done the legwork on the ground with residents, either.

I'd like to know how the people here who are against the stadium seem to know what the POG has and hasn't been doing behind the scenes and what their time agenda is. They must have some secret insider who tells them what they've been communicating to the politicians and the future stakeholders.

Personally I'd like some insider info on trading, so I can retire, if that's possible but all I'm gonna see are a few lame cautionary quotes from a few councilors who don't want to be seen spending public dollars whether they want to or not.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by elly63

I'd like to know how the people here who are against the stadium seem to know what the POG has and hasn't been doing behind the scenes and what their time agenda is.

Firstly, i'm not against the stadium in general. Good of you to make an assumption, though, I guess.

Secondly, there have been a number of news articles with politicians quoted as stating that the POG haven't brought forward confirmed funding numbers:

• "Savage said at the time that council hadn’t heard any numbers and there was no specific funding request from Maritime Football Ltd., but some councillors have discussed possible funding arrangements."
  http://3downnation.com/2018/07/18/ha...dium-cfl-team/
  
  
• "McNeil said that he has previously met with representatives of Maritime Football, but has no idea on what a request for support from the province, if any, would look like."
  https://globalnews.ca/news/4327632/n...r-cfl-stadium/
  
  
• “Until we have a business plan in place with dollars and cents, I don’t know what the ask will be,” said a cautiously optimistic Zurawski. “We need to get the information."
  http://thechronicleherald.ca/metro/1...-idea-to-staff

Thirdly, the time agenda comes from a tweet that you posted on the last page of this thread:



Insider knowledge indeed.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Firstly, i'm not against the stadium in general. Good of you to make an assumption, though, I guess..

I'm also not against a Halifax Stadium per se, and I also think it's high time for a Maritime CFL franchise.

I just can't get rid of that "carpetbagger" odour wafting from the proposed ownership group. I hope I'm wrong, but we'll see.......

[elly63]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Firstly, i'm not against the stadium in general. Good of you to make an assumption, though, I guess.

It's easy to make that assumption when all of your posts show otherwise. And even though I didn't name any names, you assumed I was referring to you, why would you do that?

This is very early days, I don't hold anyone accountable for what they might say or what people interpret what they say. Those utterances will hold about as much similarity to what goes down as the original concept design for Mosaic Stadium did to the end product.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I just can't get rid of that "carpetbagger" odour wafting from the proposed ownership group. I hope I'm wrong, but we'll see.......

What's the problem? I assume you are referring to Phoenix and two of the partners. They were able to sustain a hockey franchise which is much more difficult than a CFL team. Plus there is also another majority owner in the mix along with local partners. Apparently their finances are fine with the CFL Commissioner and the Mayor, so why the apprehension?

Are they going to try and finagle so less cash comes out of their pockets to pay for this project? Of course, and if that is unacceptable to the PTB and John Q Public, it ain't gonna happen. Otherwise, there will be a deal.

[Nouvellecosse]

I'm not necessarily against it either, but I'm concerned when I hear people suggest that it won't be busy more than a couple dozen times per year, and that in fact it'll be so quiet that it shouldn't be built anywhere other than the periphery. If that were actually the case, I'd be against any government financial involvement but of course if the private sector thinks it can make a go of it without help, they can have at it.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

but I'm concerned when I hear people suggest that it won't be busy more than a couple dozen times per year

This never ceases to amaze me. Do people really think that the only thing this is being built for is 10 CFL games, and a few other concerts and big events, no public use whatsoever? It defies credulity.

[Keith P.]

This is one of the better, more balanced pieces on the stadium topic I have seen:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-s...dium-1.4753953

[MonctonRad]

I read the article - so he wants to fund the stadium through a hotel tax eh???

Sounds a lot like Trump - "We're gonna build a big beautiful wall and Mexico is going to pay for it!!!"

Substitute - We're gonna build a big beautiful stadium and New Brunswickers are going to pay for it!!!"

[IanWatson]

Interesting quote:

It's not a net creator of wealth. A CFL team would probably have a revenue base of about $15 million a year. That's frankly just another small business. It'll create a few jobs and it'll be good.

I think the real thing is, does it make people feel good about living in Halifax? Is it something adding to the social wealth of the community?

So I guess the question is: is this something that people need to feel good about living in Halifax? It's true that the Raptors and Jays are important to the identity of Toronto, but on the flip side is anyone saying, "Hamilton just wouldn't be Hamilton without the TiCats"?

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by IanWatson

is anyone saying, "Hamilton just wouldn't be Hamilton without the TiCats"?

Pretty much the only stature that Hamilton has in the national consciousness is because of the Ti-Cats.

There is no question that a CFL team would make Halifax a "big league city." It also would contribute to the civic pride and "social wealth" of the community. This is beyond debate.

The question is - Is it worth the investment????

[lirette]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Pretty much the only stature that Hamilton has in the national consciousness is because of the Ti-Cats.

There is no question that a CFL team would make Halifax a "big league city." It also would contribute to the civic pride and "social wealth" of the community. This is beyond debate.

The question is - Is it worth the investment????

Regina even moreso with the RoughRiders. They are a huge part of the culture in Saskatchewan. They even lead the CFL in attendance with the smallest city.

[someone123]

The "not a net creator of wealth" (in a dollars and cents way) statement would be true about any recreational facility and it is true of a lot of our public services.

In the US it's common for people to argue that sports create spinoff effects that defray the costs of stadium construction or even generate profit for the host region. Nobody in Halifax seems to be claiming that or seems to believe that, and I tend to agree that it's a fantasy. Pro a facilities are a money sink, not a cash cow. They can still be worthwhile though.

[JHikka]

I feel as if most of the dialogue in the US referring to stadiums not being economic growth drivers derives from massive NFL stadiums and the public funding they suck up. When an article like this one uses "Sports Stadiums" in the title it's mostly referring to NFL stadiums:

Originally Posted by Roger Noll

“NFL stadiums do not generate significant local economic growth, and the incremental tax revenue is not sufficient to cover any significant financial contribution by the city,”

Noll said that because football stadiums are used so infrequently – two preseason games, eight regular season games and possibly a couple of playoff games – they do not realize a large economic benefit from those games alone. Realizing this, the San Francisco 49ers’ new Levi’s Stadium, which opened last year, has played host to several other events, including concerts and college football, soccer and hockey games.

Basketball and hockey arenas are a better deal for cities, he said. “Arenas are used more often.”

Emphasis added mine.

You can come closer to creating economic growth equaling public investment funding with an arena but you stray further from that possibility with a stadium.