Should Canada's Capital be Officially Bilingual

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Does it make you feel like Gandalf walking into the Shire?

.

Assuming I am getting this reference right... no, I don't have these kinds of pretentions.

But I still know what I am talking about.

[Dado]

Were the population of Ottawa itself to become bilingual (i.e. most people being able to speak both languages), then I suspect the city becoming officially bilingual would come about relatively quickly.

Personally, I think the focus of bilingualism efforts in Ottawa should now be on the education system and not the municipal government. The municipal government has gone about as far as it should for the moment.

It's something of a travesty how few anglophones in Ottawa clear the education system without becoming fluent in French. When you step back and think about the fact that a sizeable proportion of the federal civil service is now drawn from the population of Ottawa it would really make a lot of sense for the education system in Ottawa to be graduating far more people who are bilingual. Yet of course the feds constitutionally have no role to play in education, so we get this situation where the level that needs bilingual employees can't do anything to generate them. Ontario provincial education policy seems to run along the lines of "preserve French amongst the French, and teach French to a select few of everyone else". This sad state of affairs in Ottawa is definitely an argument for a federal capital territory to bring some sort of sanity to this kind of issue because Queen's Park doesn't really give a damn about the language needs of the federal government in distant Ottawa.

Whether Ottawa becomes federalized or not, I'd like to see the entire hoary system of four schoolboards in Ottawa - English and French by public and Catholic with French immersion in the English boards - dispensed with entirely. Create one bilingual board with a requirement for most everyone to graduate from high school bilingual, with 40% of classes in each language. The final 20% could be either or in third languages - which are themselves useful assets for a capital city to have amongst its population.

[1overcosc]

Such an education system could potentially lead to accelerated assimilation of francophones, as even if the classes were bilingual, the 'language of the playground' would inevitably be English.

[Aylmer]

Can we start a poll on whether Ottawa's municipal affairs are anyone else's business?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Such an education system could potentially lead to accelerated assimilation of francophones, as even if the classes were bilingual, the 'language of the playground' would inevitably be English.

In addition to being unconstitutional.

[Surrealplaces]

I don't believe Ottawa needs to be Bilingual. Ottawa might be Canada's capital, but it's also it's own city, and it already functions bilingually.

Government jobs in Ottawa, and official functions relating to the government and Ottawa's role as a capital are already bilingual. Those that need to speak French or want to speak French already do.....same goes for English. Why does Gatineau need to be officially bilingual? The people who live there and need/want to speak English are already doing so.

[Dado]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In addition to being unconstitutional.

It's not a foregone conclusion that a truly bilingual education system would be unconstitutional. Indeed it would be perverse if a bilingual education system failed a constitutional test.

Interestingly, this Ottawa Citizen article makes reference to a bilingual high school which later became a French language elementary school. This was before the Charter, but it does show that bilingual schools are not unprecedented.

That article itself though makes mention of the overall demographic trend towards fewer francophones in Ottawa.

[Stryker]

Meh I think billingualism for anglos is a lost cause, is more elitism than anything else.

I think a much better strategy is make french a more prevalent part of canadian education.

The fact is learning french is bloody hard if you don't have the intellectual, parental or geographic tools for immersion schools.

And outside of that it's bloody hard to actually get spoken experience with the language.

It'd be much better if we treated the language as a reference or intellectual language.

i.e. use french Vocabulary more often in schools.

Small bits that shouldn't interfere with basic learning.

I.e. Exposing kids to french terms while learning math etc.

It wouldn't make make people fluent, however it would help extend awareness outside of bilingual regions.

By spreading the written form of the language it'd give a much more pragmatic usage for anglos than this wild idea that we might ever meet a french person.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Dado

It's not a foregone conclusion that a truly bilingual education system would be unconstitutional. Indeed it would be perverse if a bilingual education system failed a constitutional test.

Interestingly, this Ottawa Citizen article makes reference to a bilingual high school which later became a French language elementary school. This was before the Charter, but it does show that bilingual schools are not unprecedented.

.

That's an interesting point.

Technically the constitution says that francophone and anglophone minorities have a right to schooling in their language where numbers justify. (Obviously in Ottawa the numbers "justify" it.)

In theory this means that bilingual schools could be sufficient. And for some time (both before and after the Charter) many anglo provinces tried to placate or comply by having bilingual schools in areas where there were lots of francophones. One of my parents went to such as school as did one of my in-laws.

It was found that these schools tended to assimilate francophones as the language of the hallways and the schoolyards was always English. There were a number of these schools in Ottawa and Eastern Ontario. Eastview High on McArthur was one of them. It later became the French only André Laurendeau. And is now an elementary school. I believe Gloucester High School on Ogilvie as was also bilingual was Plantangenet High School out on Highway 17 East.

Minority francophone communities from across Canada took their case for their own distinct schools to the Supreme Court.

They gradually got their own French only schools, but under shared (bilingual) school boards. Then they found that French schools often got short shrift for facilities and supplies from the majority anglo boards. So they went to court again - and won again. To get their own French only school boards.

All of this played out in the 1980s and early 1990s. I was there.

So while the Constitution might allow for your plan, there are several court rulings that say that francophone minorities are entitled to their own French only schools, managed by their own French only school boards.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Dado

Interestingly, this Ottawa Citizen article makes reference to a bilingual high school which later became a French language elementary school. This was before the Charter, but it does show that bilingual schools are not unprecedented.

That article itself though makes mention of the overall demographic trend towards fewer francophones in Ottawa.

Thanks for that Citizen article. It definitely confirms what I've been seeing on the ground for quite some time.

I found this line quite revealing:
"For one thing, fewer people speak the language in their homes. Even though 15 per cent of Ottawa residents reported French as their mother tongue, only six per cent told Statistics Canada in 2011 that they use it exclusively at home."

Of course, a decent number of people in Ottawa speak English in addition to French in the home, so it likely bumps things up to around 10%.

Still, that's not that much. It leaves a city that's functionally anglophone to the tune of about 90% of the population. A figure which includes former francophone bastions all over the east end like Vanier, Cyrville, Orleans, etc.

You can also read the full report they are referring to here:
http://www.officiallanguages.gc.ca/e...ortrait-ottawa

Surprising is the much much lower than expected use of French at home in places like Vanier and Orleans.

Also the number of immigrants that adopt French is a lot lower than I would have expected. But then again, I've noticed that a lot of immigrants in Ottawa from traditionally French-oriented places are adopting English as well. I meet tons of Lebanese Ottawans and increasing numbers of Haitians too who can't speak French.

As I said earlier in the thread, we're probably moving towards a situation where the capital region has a more clear demarcation between an anglophone side (Ottawa) and a francophone side (Gatineau).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Dado

That article itself though makes mention of the overall demographic trend towards fewer francophones in Ottawa.

Oh, I should mention that the demographic trend so far doesn't indicate a decline in the total number of francophones in Ottawa. That number has actually been growing steadily - until now.

It's in relative terms (population share/%) that it's been dropping like a stone though.

And of course the use of French at home numbers are very telling.

Those 6-10% speaking French at home are your base francophone population of the future, not the larger 15-16% mother tongue group as many of those are now off the grid and have abandoned French entirely and their kids won't be francophones either.

A good chunk of my family in Ottawa is like this actually.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Acajack

That's an interesting point.

Technically the constitution says that francophone and anglophone minorities have a right to schooling in their language where numbers justify. (Obviously in Ottawa the numbers "justify" it.)

In theory this means that bilingual schools could be sufficient. And for some time (both before and after the Charter) many anglo provinces tried to placate or comply by having bilingual schools in areas where there were lots of francophones. One of my parents went to such as school as did one of my in-laws.

It was found that these schools tended to assimilate francophones as the language of the hallways and the schoolyards was always English. There were a number of these schools in Ottawa and Eastern Ontario. Eastview High on McArthur was one of them. It later became the French only André Laurendeau. And is now an elementary school. I believe Gloucester High School on Ogilvie as was also bilingual was Plantangenet High School out on Highway 17 East.

Minority francophone communities from across Canada took their case for their own distinct schools to the Supreme Court.

They gradually got their own French only schools, but under shared (bilingual) school boards. Then they found that French schools often got short shrift for facilities and supplies from the majority anglo boards. So they went to court again - and won again. To get their own French only school boards.

All of this played out in the 1980s and early 1990s. I was there.

So while the Constitution might allow for your plan, there are several court rulings that say that francophone minorities are entitled to their own French only schools, managed by their own French only school boards.

I went through my old school records a few months ago. Among the things I found was my kintergarten registration form from 1997. It was a bilingual form. Francophone school boards are pretty recent I think.

[Dado]

Originally Posted by Acajack

That's an interesting point.

Technically the constitution says that francophone and anglophone minorities have a right to schooling in their language where numbers justify. (Obviously in Ottawa the numbers "justify" it.)

In theory this means that bilingual schools could be sufficient. And for some time (both before and after the Charter) many anglo provinces tried to placate or comply by having bilingual schools in areas where there were lots of francophones. One of my parents went to such as school as did one of my in-laws.

It was found that these schools tended to assimilate francophones as the language of the hallways and the schoolyards was always English.

If that is the case, then why are the Francophone boards marketing themselves to Anglophone parents? There's a TV ad running with a somewhat annoying kid speaking in French (subtitled in English) with a borderline French (France) accent extolling the virtues of French language education. Wouldn't the introduction of substantial numbers of anglophone children help bring about this very assimilation? Perhaps it's being aimed at current English-speakers whose mother tongue is French, but it really seems a broader net than that that they're casting.

As it stands right now, what do the French language boards do about English language education? Practical reality is that it's not in the interest of students in Ontario not to learn English to a reasonably fluent level.

Perhaps if "language of the schoolyard" is the concern, then the fully bilingual schools could wait to the secondary level (where I recall students speaking in languages other than English anyway). So long as enough of the other language was being learned at the primary level, it still ought to be enough to achieve bilingual fluency upon graduation.

[1overcosc]

^ Isn't there some sort of rule of how in order to enroll your child at a Francophone school board, you yourself have to have attended a francophone school in your childhood, in order to prevent anglophones from using the French language school system as French immersion?

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Oh, I should mention that the demographic trend so far doesn't indicate a decline in the total number of francophones in Ottawa. That number has actually been growing steadily - until now.

It's in relative terms (population share/%) that it's been dropping like a stone though.

And of course the use of French at home numbers are very telling.

Those 6-10% speaking French at home are your base francophone population of the future, not the larger 15-16% mother tongue group as many of those are now off the grid and have abandoned French entirely and their kids won't be francophones either.
A good chunk of my family in Ottawa is like this actually.

I wonder if this is due to multi-generational anglicization (i.e. they are now Anglos with French names), or "mixed" Anglo/Franco marriages, or other factors)? In a way it surprises me (except for the Anglos with French names) as the graduation and scholastic achievement rates of the French school boards surpass those of the English (iirc). You would think many parents would want to give their kids that opportunity, especially with the potential dividends in Ottawa in terms of public sector employment.

Edit: It's a small subset, but Canadian diplomats have for years been putting their kids into Lycee Claudel to ensure they get a French language education while overseas. It is almost universal among francophones, but is quite common among anglos as well. Added bonus - your kid gets a private school education subsidized by the employer.

[Dado]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

^ Isn't there some sort of rule of how in order to enroll your child at a Francophone school board, you yourself have to have attended a francophone school in your childhood, in order to prevent anglophones from using the French language school system as French immersion?

Well if you can find it...

I looked on CEPEO's enrolment page and there's nothing that would seem to require parental attendance of a French language school. Indeed, back when the French language boards were first formed, that may well have been counterproductive.

http://www.cepeo.on.ca/inscrivez-vous/

One of the forms (in French only, so there is that) does require you to mark off what languages the child speaks and what languages are used in the home, but again, nothing states that one of the parents must have attended a French language school or even speaks French.

I suppose in the event of a surplus of would-be students, the authorities would prioritize identifiable Francophones, but as an absolute requirement it doesn't seem to be.

[Dado]

Originally Posted by Stryker

Meh I think billingualism for anglos is a lost cause, is more elitism than anything else.

I think a much better strategy is make french a more prevalent part of canadian education.

The fact is learning french is bloody hard if you don't have the intellectual, parental or geographic tools for immersion schools.

And outside of that it's bloody hard to actually get spoken experience with the language.

It'd be much better if we treated the language as a reference or intellectual language.

i.e. use french Vocabulary more often in schools.

Small bits that shouldn't interfere with basic learning.

I.e. Exposing kids to french terms while learning math etc.

It wouldn't make make people fluent, however it would help extend awareness outside of bilingual regions.

By spreading the written form of the language it'd give a much more pragmatic usage for anglos than this wild idea that we might ever meet a french person.

For Canada-at-large I agree with you - it would be difficult to implement bilingual education.

But I only had the idea for the Ottawa area, where of all places it ought to be possible and would have benefits that extend beyond just the students themselves. Between bilingual anglophones, Franco-Ontarians and Quebeckers across the river, we likely have sufficient numbers of French-speaking teachers in the area to run a bilingual education system in Ottawa.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

^ Isn't there some sort of rule of how in order to enroll your child at a Francophone school board, you yourself have to have attended a francophone school in your childhood, in order to prevent anglophones from using the French language school system as French immersion?

You're absolutely right. It's even in the Constitution. It's applied variably by francophone school boards across the country. Ottawa French schools are among the toughest in the country to get into if you yourself aren't francophone or your kids don't already speak French.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You're absolutely right. It's even in the Constitution. It's applied variably by francophone school boards across the country. Ottawa French schools are among the toughest in the country to get into if you yourself aren't francophone or your kids don't already speak French.

Must save them big bucks in terms of FSL student needs.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I wonder if this is due to multi-generational anglicization (i.e. they are now Anglos with French names), or "mixed" Anglo/Franco marriages, or other factors)? In a way it surprises me (except for the Anglos with French names) as the graduation and scholastic achievement rates of the French school boards surpass those of the English (iirc). You would think many parents would want to give their kids that opportunity, especially with the potential dividends in Ottawa in terms of public sector employment.
.

It's a bit mystifying to me as well. I've actually got members of my family whose kids have been in French school in Ottawa since the beginning (the kids' French is subpar even with that) and who are considering switching over to an English school for some reason that's unclear... either French school is ''too hard'' (ha) or they want to shore up their English for the future (ha ha).

Regardless, if they do that it will basically kill French in that family for all intents and purposes. The kids' French is already very weak (and they go to French school!) and below their proficiency in English.