The Whole Foods Effect

[Crawford]

Whole Foods is opening in Detroit because the local/state govts are paying them to open to Detroit.

The only "Whole Foods effect" is the allocation of paltry local tax revenues to benefit an out-of-state grocer.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by 10023

I know it's considered a good value, but yes it's got pretty good produce. I haven't been in a while to say how I'd think of it otherwise. It's also more than 70 blocks north of me, so not an option for anything.

There's a big Fairway opening on 2nd Ave. closer to downtown (corner 30th Street, in a former Borders).

Fairway has very good produce, and is pretty well priced, especially for Manhattan.

[10023]

Originally Posted by Crawford

There's a big Fairway opening on 2nd Ave. closer to downtown (corner 30th Street, in a former Borders).

Fairway has very good produce, and is pretty well priced, especially for Manhattan.

Still way too far away, but great if you live in Murray Hill I guess.

Regardless - you get my point. Most groceries in New York have shit produce, and assuming that's the case in other urban areas (though doubtful to the extent it is here, because I guess it's just tough and expensive to get perishables into Manhattan), Whole Foods is a godsend.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by someone123

Does Brooklyn have a better variety of grocery stores? It is more comparable to the sorts of neighbourhoods that have these other places. I've always figured everybody in Manhattan just eats out all the time.

I don't think the premise is correct. I've lived all over in Manhattan and Brooklyn, and don't think that Manhattan is lacking in grocery stores.

I don't see how D'Ag, Westside Mkt., Food Emporium, Amish Market, Grace's etc. are worse than Safeway, Kroger, Jewel/Osco, etc. If anything, some are better, though more expensive.

I always thought Westside Market locations were great. Pretty cheap, 24/7, great produce and good prepared foods.

Now there are some bad or overpriced markets too, but there's enough decent ones that there's at least a few options.

[10023]

^ After suffering through 3 years of living near the Food Emporium at Broadway and 68th, I'm going to disagree with you vehemently. That place sucked.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by 10023

^ After suffering through 3 years of living near the Food Emporium at Broadway and 68th, I'm going to disagree with you vehemently. That place sucked.

I don't like Food Emporium either, but they vary. The one at 1st/60th is fine.

You had plenty of options in that area, though. Westside, Citarella, Fairway. But you're right that nothing right on Bway in high 60's. I think Balduccis isn't there anymore.

[MNMike]

There is a Whole Foods under construction as part of a larger project in downtown Minneapolis right now...totally privately financed thank goodness.

http://www.ryancompanies.com/ryan/pr...ject-underway/

There is also a Lunds (local upscale grocer) opening on the same street downtown in a month or so...about a mile south of the Whole Foods location.

http://www.lundsandbyerlys.com/Store.../Hennepin.aspx

Downtown has already been growning like crazy...so these aren't really sparking the development...but I am betting they will certainly draw more...Especially around the Whole foods site, as that is currently kind of a hole in an otherwise developing community.

[urbanactivist]

Originally Posted by 10023

Say what you want about Whole Foods, but they truly do bring a different standard of food to the neighborhoods they enter.

I live in the Village in NYC and the only places I'll buy fruits and vegetables are the Union Square Greenmarket and Whole Foods. Other grocery stores in Manhattan (Gristedes, Food Emporium, etc.) have nothing worth eating.

It's also the only full-on grocery store (as opposed to specialty store) where you can find really good bread, meat and cheese (otherwise you need to go to a bakery, butcher or cheese shop like Murray's).

Agreed 100%. Once Whole Foods moves into the neighborhood, the other grocers immediately step up their game to compete. Such was the case with the Kroger in Houston's Montrose neighborhood. They did a full renovation and vastly improved the selection and quality of their groceries, just as the new Whole Foods was being built.

[pdxtex]

i guess people in portland like to eat, we have five full service grocery stores within 2 miles of my apartment, 1 co-op, a trader joes, and a few specialty grocers and 150 food carts....i will say the whole foods by us does have a beer cooler straight off of the starship enterprise, its awesome! whole foods for detroit is great. sure its corporatey but it is a full service grocery store none the less. concerning manhattan, where do normal people buy groceries?

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by pdxtex

iconcerning manhattan, where do normal people buy groceries?

Purely anecdotally, I would say FreshDirect has the biggest market share. They're huge.

[10023]

Originally Posted by pdxtex

concerning manhattan, where do normal people buy groceries?

Remember as well that Manhattan is expensive, and Whole Foods is no more expensive here than it is in any other part of the country... so on a relative basis, it's not out of reach for most people. It's also no more expensive than a lot of the other (inferior) grocery stores for the same goods. Produce is cheaper at Whole Foods than at Food Emporium, in my experience.

The only reason Whole Foods gets accused of being expensive is what you buy there, not their prices relative to other stores' for the same goods. Your bill at the checkout is higher because you're walking out of there with superior products.

[TarHeelJ]

Originally Posted by pdxtex

i guess people in portland like to eat, we have five full service grocery stores within 2 miles of my apartment, 1 co-op, a trader joes, and a few specialty grocers and 150 food carts....i will say the whole foods by us does have a beer cooler straight off of the starship enterprise, its awesome! whole foods for detroit is great. sure its corporatey but it is a full service grocery store none the less. concerning manhattan, where do normal people buy groceries?

Yeah, people in other cities don't like to eat that much...

[10023]

Originally Posted by TarHeelJ

Yeah, people in other cities don't like to eat that much...

I think he means that Portland has a strong food culture, which is is known for. So are New York, Chicago, San Francisco. Phoenix not so much (or any kind of culture, for that matter).

[pdxtex]

Originally Posted by 10023

I think he means that Portland has a strong food culture, which is is known for. So are New York, Chicago, San Francisco. Phoenix not so much (or any kind of culture, for that matter).

^^yes, but it really only stepped up it game within the last 10 years....

[ardecila]

I understand the challenges of produce in the north, but here in New Orleans we have Rouse's, which IMO has far better and cheaper produce than Whole Foods, with roughly the same percentage or higher of locally-sourced.

If they need to choose, Whole Foods will usually choose organic over locally-sourced because they think their customers prefer the organic. Rouse's is the opposite - they take advantage of local suppliers whenever possible to minimize transportation costs and spoilage, but they don't really care about organic.

Interestingly, NOLA was the first city outside of Texas to have a Whole Foods, way back in 1983 on Esplanade Ave. Eventually they moved Uptown to the current location to expand their offerings and reach a wider customer base. Now there are even whisperings of a second Whole Foods opening in the city...

Originally Posted by Private Dick

Yeah, you're right. I wonder if the wonderful Wegmans will ever make an entry into NYC, since they are a NY-based company and are in NY, PA, NJ.

I've done some research on Wegmans... they're incredibly conservative with store locations, opening stores in upscale suburbs and drawing customers from whole sectors of a metro area. They're totally fine with growing slowly (they're privately-owned) so they don't take risks, especially not on transitional urban areas. Once an urban area progresses to the kind of stable wealth that Wegmans looks for, the real estate values would prohibit Wegmans from assembling enough land for a full-scale store without some kind of subsidy.

[Gordo]

Originally Posted by 10023

Regardless - you get my point. Most groceries in New York have shit produce, and assuming that's the case in other urban areas (though doubtful to the extent it is here, because I guess it's just tough and expensive to get perishables into Manhattan), Whole Foods is a godsend.

Every time I've been to New York I've been astounded at how shitty the grocery stores are, at least compared to SF or Seattle or LA or Vancouver. In those four cities, local places similar to Whole Foods are common (both single stores and regional chains), and even the larger chains like the Safeway or Kroger brands are just better - even in very urban locations. Now obviously none of those cities are as urban as Manhattan, but still, New York seems to be worse off than it should be for decent grocery stores.

[10023]

Originally Posted by ardecila

If they need to choose, Whole Foods will usually choose organic over locally-sourced because they think their customers prefer the organic. Rouse's is the opposite - they take advantage of local suppliers whenever possible to minimize transportation costs and spoilage, but they don't really care about organic.

Interesting... personally I usually go for the locally-sourced stuff (particularly if it's in-season like asparagus right now), even if it's not organic, versus something organic from California.

Ideally we shouldn't have to make that choice - chemical fertilizers and pesticides would just be banned completely and it would all be organic.

[TarHeelJ]

Originally Posted by 10023

I think he means that Portland has a strong food culture, which is is known for. So are New York, Chicago, San Francisco. Phoenix not so much (or any kind of culture, for that matter).

I understood what he meant, it was just worded sort of weird. So many cities have a strong food culture that I couldn't see Portland standing out over the others, but oh well. Onward and upward.

[tdawg]

It's (horrible supermarkets) been true for NYC for too long. Places like Met and Key Food, Associated, C-Town, all pretty awful compared to what the rest of the country has. It's been getting better, though, with places like Whole Foods, Eataly, new Fairways, and all the Green Markets around the city. Someone mentioned Wegmans earlier. A Wegmans would be amazing. The ones I've been to before are just about the best supermarkets I've ever been in, besting places like Publix, that are pretty consistently great.

[awholeparade]

Originally Posted by TarHeelJ

I understood what he meant, it was just worded sort of weird. So many cities have a strong food culture that I couldn't see Portland standing out over the others, but oh well. Onward and upward.

And that's where you're wrong. Portland truly is standing out over many other cities for food culture.