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View Poll Results: Which border has the stronger linkage between its cities on two sides?
On average, the Mexican-US border cities. 27 49.09%
On average, the Canadian-US border cities. 16 29.09%
On average, they are equally strong, or weak. 12 21.82%
Voters: 55. You may not vote on this poll

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  #101  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2018, 3:45 AM
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One thing I notice about Alaska is that it's generally Republican. But nearby British Columbia and the territories often vote Liberal or NDP and is more left wing.

Why is Alaska more politically conservative or right wing than the adjacent parts of the Canadian west? Both are largely rural areas with lots of Native people. There are lots of people who work for the government in both areas too.

In eastern Canada where Quebec and New Brunswick border the US, it's mostly Democratic on the US side (and where Bernie Sanders got much of his support was in rural Vermont, where you had the more left-wing, but rural Canadian political attitudes).

The prairies area in Canada borders American red states which makes sense even though Alberta may be only conservative by Canadian standards.
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  #102  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2018, 3:50 AM
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One thing I notice about Alaska is that it's generally Republican. But nearby British Columbia and the Yukon often votes NDP and is more left wing.

Why is Alaska more politically conservative or right wing than the adjacent parts of the Canadian west?

In eastern Canada where Quebec and New Brunswick border the US, it's mostly Democratic on the US side (and where Bernie Sanders got much of his support was in rural Vermont, where you had the more left-wing, but rural Canadian political attitudes).

The prairies area in Canada borders American red states which makes sense even though Alberta may be only conservative by Canadian standards.
Northern sparsely settled parts of Canada that vote NDP (or Liberal) generally have high aboriginal populations. The huge riding near the Alaskan border has the higher percentage of aboriginals in the province: about one third.

The other rural ridings in BC generally vote conservative.
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  #103  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2018, 3:54 AM
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Northern sparsely settled parts of Canada that vote NDP (or Liberal) generally have high aboriginal populations. The huge riding near the Alaskan border has the higher percentage of aboriginals in the province: about one third.

The other rural ridings in BC generally vote conservative.
So, do Native populations in both Alaska and Northern Canada tend to be more supportive of the left wing political party, but it's just that the Canadian side has a large enough demographic that it outweighs the conservative voters in many years, while Alaska's native population or other demographics that votes Democrat isn't as numerous or politically dominant relative to the Republican-voting demographics?
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  #104  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2018, 3:58 AM
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Also, in general, when it comes to Canada vs. the US, it seems like the kind of rural, resource-industry type of places which gets NDP support doesn't have as much of an equivalent in the US. There's a bit of an element of it stateside, like in places where Bernie Sanders got support.

But Canada in general has much more of a left-wing, pro-union, rural electorate than the US, in small towns/rural areas which would be Republican there.
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  #105  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2018, 3:59 AM
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Yeah, there are indeed border checkpoints well into the U.S. on many of the highways - this is true in South Texas, at least. My dad was raised in Brownsville and his family was still down there while I was growing up in the Austin area. We drove down all the time.

That said, this is not to say that there is not security on the border as you cross into Matamoros, Nuevo Progresso, Reynosa, etc. These northern checkpoints are just that - checkpoints. They're additional layers of security on top of the customs and immigration at the actual border.
I have gone through the checkpoint on I-19 twice last week. Both times they let their dog sniff my car and then waved me through. The principle purposes of these checkpoints seem to be 2: Drug interdiction and interdiction of illegals who have walked across the border outside of town (Nogales in the case near me) where there is no fence and gotten picked up by a "coyote" in a van or pickup for further transport north. This is a common practice and putting checkpoints on the roads leading away from the border about 20 miles or so from the border means the crossers have to walk at least that far north befoe being picked up, a significant barrier (especially in an Arizona summer when it's 115 F in the desert).

There is plenty of security also at the border at official crossing points, but out in the desert it is more variable and in the past the various sensor systems used out there haven't always worked well. These days they do use drones as well as embedded sensors.

One thing many pople don't realize: The folks at the border crossing are from Customs & Immigration and the ones at the checkpoints farther north are the Border Patrol, 2 different agencies.
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  #106  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2018, 4:06 AM
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Also, in general, when it comes to Canada vs. the US, it seems like the kind of rural, resource-industry type of places which gets NDP support doesn't have as much of an equivalent in the US. There's a bit of an element of it stateside, like in places where Bernie Sanders got support.

But Canada in general has much more of a left-wing, pro-union, rural electorate than the US, in small towns/rural areas which would be Republican there.
Once upon a time in the northern Midwest there was a thing called the Democratic Farmer-Labor Party which still exists in Minnesota and that is probably similar to Canadian Liberals across the border. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnes...–Labor_Party
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  #107  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2018, 12:52 PM
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Also, in general, when it comes to Canada vs. the US, it seems like the kind of rural, resource-industry type of places which gets NDP support doesn't have as much of an equivalent in the US. There's a bit of an element of it stateside, like in places where Bernie Sanders got support.

But Canada in general has much more of a left-wing, pro-union, rural electorate than the US, in small towns/rural areas which would be Republican there.
Well, for one thing the U.S. compared to Canada has very few rural resource industry regions that don't at least have at least some agricultural or ranching activity taking place in the region. Canada has many, many areas where it's resource industries only with almost no local farming at all.

And we all know farmer types tend to be politically conservative. That explains why even in Canada most of the Prairies and rural Ontario are fairly conservative. (There is a notable exception to this rule in Quebec where agricultural areas don't tend to be conservative, and to a lesser degree is Atlantic Canada as well, where there are other factors at play.)
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  #108  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2018, 2:56 PM
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Once upon a time in the northern Midwest there was a thing called the Democratic Farmer-Labor Party which still exists in Minnesota and that is probably similar to Canadian Liberals across the border. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnes...–Labor_Party
Likely the equivalent in Canada was the CCF (Co-operative Commonwealth Federation) that was founded on the Canadian prairies during the Depression. This eventually became the NDP in Canada.
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  #109  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2018, 4:33 PM
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Well, for one thing the U.S. compared to Canada has very few rural resource industry regions that don't at least have at least some agricultural or ranching activity taking place in the region. Canada has many, many areas where it's resource industries only with almost no local farming at all.

And we all know farmer types tend to be politically conservative. That explains why even in Canada most of the Prairies and rural Ontario are fairly conservative. (There is a notable exception to this rule in Quebec where agricultural areas don't tend to be conservative, and to a lesser degree is Atlantic Canada as well, where there are other factors at play.)
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Likely the equivalent in Canada was the CCF (Co-operative Commonwealth Federation) that was founded on the Canadian prairies during the Depression. This eventually became the NDP in Canada.
Yeah, but the NDP grew out of a labor movement in the prairies, a farming region.

The connection between political conservatism and population density (sparser being more conservative) seems stronger in the US but less clear cut in Canada.

I think for a number of reasons. As mentioned earlier, sparsely populated areas in Northern Canada have more aboriginal people. There's also probably places where people have government jobs in sparsely populated areas (so you'd have less of the "anti-big government" conservatism political views for those people). Also, labor unions declined much more in small town America than in Canada. Additionally, suburbs of bigger Canadian cities can be conservative much more than further, outlying rural regions, because those suburbs are voting conservative on economic grounds.
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  #110  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2018, 4:35 PM
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Well, for one thing the U.S. compared to Canada has very few rural resource industry regions that don't at least have at least some agricultural or ranching activity taking place in the region. Canada has many, many areas where it's resource industries only with almost no local farming at all.

And we all know farmer types tend to be politically conservative. That explains why even in Canada most of the Prairies and rural Ontario are fairly conservative. (There is a notable exception to this rule in Quebec where agricultural areas don't tend to be conservative, and to a lesser degree is Atlantic Canada as well, where there are other factors at play.)
Is it a given that resource extraction industries have more people who are left-wing than farmers/ranchers?

I mean, I don't really think of an oil worker as any more or less likely to be economically left-wing than a rancher. I know coal miners traditionally have kind of been associated with socialism/labor unions, but I don't think of them as that much more likely to be so than farmers/ranchers.
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  #111  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2018, 4:37 PM
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So, back to the poll topic and question -- it looks like as of now, the Mexican-US border has pulled ahead a bit.
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  #112  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2018, 4:49 PM
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Yeah, but the NDP grew out of a labor movement in the prairies, a farming region.
The connection between political conservatism and population density (sparser being more conservative) seems stronger in the US but less clear cut in Canada.

I think for a number of reasons. As mentioned earlier, sparsely populated areas in Northern Canada have more aboriginal people. There's also probably places where people have government jobs in sparsely populated areas (so you'd have less of the "anti-big government" conservatism political views for those people). Also, labor unions declined much more in small town America than in Canada. Additionally, suburbs of bigger Canadian cities can be conservative much more than further, outlying rural regions, because those suburbs are voting conservative on economic grounds.
The CCF came directly from the farming community in the west which was devastated by the Dust Bowl. It was through their activism that the social safety net was developed in Canada. This later became a union issue as they took over as the primary advocate for improved social programs in the post-war years, but its origins was the farming community. It should come as no surprise that the NDP replaced the Conservatives in the Alberta legislature.

We have to remember that their was the real possibility of revolution in Canada in 1935, when young men from western farms boarded trains by the thousands bound for Ottawa. This was a major concern for the stability of the Canadian government at the time and followed a dismal period when the Conservatives ran the country and made the Depression worse in the early 30s.
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  #113  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2018, 5:29 PM
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Is it a given that resource extraction industries have more people who are left-wing than farmers/ranchers?

I mean, I don't really think of an oil worker as any more or less likely to be economically left-wing than a rancher. I know coal miners traditionally have kind of been associated with socialism/labor unions, but I don't think of them as that much more likely to be so than farmers/ranchers.
In Canada, that's generally the case. Farmers and ranchers tend to be Conservative and mining and forestry workers who are feisty/sensitive about working conditions, workers' rights and job security tend to be NDP or at the very least Liberal. Oil industry workers in Canada (concentrated in one particular part of the country) are a bit of a different breed of resource worker though. They don't seem to have as much of a "precarity" and "class struggle" mindset as mining and forestry workers do. It's probably due to the fact that they've been pretty well-served by the capitalist free market in their sector. There is a strong sense in that sector that the good times will almost always roll and always pay really well. The working conditions are harsh but it's surprising how there is a near-total absence of an exploitation narrative on the part of workers in the Alberta oilpatch. And when there is a downturn and layoffs, those workers blame the government as opposed to their bosses in big oil.
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  #114  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2018, 5:43 PM
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It appears that in Canada, the connection between population density and political views is not so clear cut.

Both the really locally dense (urban downtowns) and the really not-dense parts (remote resource-extraction-dominated areas, or places with lots of aboriginal demographics) of Canada can be left wing, hence there are places in both which go for the NDP.

The conservative areas are less dense but not really sparse (suburbs of big cities, Alberta, farming and ranching) and the liberal areas have a range of population densities.
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  #115  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2018, 5:47 PM
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Bernie Sanders' support was kind of NDP-like in that he got the support of some really left-wing young people like students, and urbanites within big cities, plus his rural base in New England and some other less densely populated areas.
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  #116  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2018, 5:49 PM
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Bernie Sanders' support was kind of NDP-like in that he got the support of some really left-wing young people like students, and urbanites within big cities, plus his rural base in New England and some other less densely populated areas.
In many ways, Bernie follows in the Farmer-Labor footsteps of Gene McCarthy and Paul Wellstone.
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  #117  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2018, 5:57 PM
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Bernie Sanders' support was kind of NDP-like in that he got the support of some really left-wing young people like students, and urbanites within big cities, plus his rural base in New England and some other less densely populated areas.
An important piece of the puzzle that jumps out at me as missing there is labour.

Sure, the leadership of big labour in the U.S. was for Sanders (and later perhaps begrudgingly for Clinton) but the rank and file workers who are the ones who actually mark ballots largely defected from the Democratic side and went with Trump.
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  #118  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2018, 6:00 PM
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Northern sparsely settled parts of Canada that vote NDP (or Liberal) generally have high aboriginal populations. The huge riding near the Alaskan border has the higher percentage of aboriginals in the province: about one third.

The other rural ridings in BC generally vote conservative.
Not quite that simple.

in 2015 BC voted in 17 Liberals, 10 Conservatives, 14 NDP and 1 Green.

The Lower Mainland elected a number of Conservtives, the Kootenays went exclusively NDP (there is a very small FM population there) The Interior went Conservative (A large FN population there) North Coast went NDP and the Northern interior went Conservative
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  #119  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2018, 6:13 PM
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Why is Alaska more politically conservative or right wing than the adjacent parts of the Canadian west? Both are largely rural areas with lots of Native people. There are lots of people who work for the government in both areas too.
Alaska in theory should count as more resource extraction right?

Or perhaps since Alaska has oil, it's a big more like Republican-voting Texas or Conservative-voting Alberta, rather than the NDP or liberal supporting forestry areas of say Northern Ontario or BC (but I'd still imagine it has an element of that). Also since the fishing industry is doing well (and the economic situation isn't as precarious as say, in the Canadian Maritimes), perhaps more people are pro-business and free market.
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  #120  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2018, 6:20 PM
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An important piece of the puzzle that jumps out at me as missing there is labour.

Sure, the leadership of big labour in the U.S. was for Sanders (and later perhaps begrudgingly for Clinton) but the rank and file workers who are the ones who actually mark ballots largely defected from the Democratic side and went with Trump.
Are there similar cases in Canada? Perhaps when non-urban or rural NDP-voters go populist right, for example the former Reform party (when people ask whether or not Canada could have an analogous situation with Trump support)?
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