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  #1  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2015, 4:39 AM
BodomReaper BodomReaper is offline
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Brian Jackson resigns

This took me by surprise. Maybe someone more familiar with city hall can weigh-in, but to me it appeared that Jackson is as pro-market as it gets in Vancouver urban planning circles.

Frances Bula has the best write-up on the news.

What's particularly upsetting is one of the main reasons he cited for his decision: the ceaseless sniping by a band of development-averse former city officials. The article only mentions Scot Hein, but I suppose Spaxman and Condon are the other culprits.

Quote:
Last fall, a former urban-design specialist, now working at the University of British Columbia, also created a minor sensation related to Mr. Jackson days before the November civic election. In a comment on a local blog, Scot Hein implied that Mr. Jackson pushed staff, against their wishes, to produce a plan for a cluster of high-density towers around the Commercial-Broadway station, in response to pressure from above him at city hall.
Because god forbid that the civil service carry-out the will of the elected officials they're appointed to serve.
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  #2  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2015, 5:30 AM
Caliplanner1 Caliplanner1 is offline
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Originally Posted by BodomReaper View Post
What's particularly upsetting is one of the main reasons he cited for his decision: the ceaseless sniping by a band of development-averse former city officials. The article only mentions Scot Hein, but I suppose Spaxman and Condon are the other culprits.

Because god forbid that the civil service carry-out the will of the elected officials they're appointed to serve.
...the question and problem though is by whom are city officials elected (re: the wealthy campaign donors) and in whose interest do these elected city officials work (re: the same wealthy few corporate sponsors)!?
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  #3  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2015, 5:36 AM
BodomReaper BodomReaper is offline
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Originally Posted by Caliplanner1 View Post
...the question and problem though is by whom are city officials elected (re: the wealthy campaign donors) and in whose interest do these elected city officials work (re: the same wealthy few corporate sponsors)!?
The great thing about democracy is that citizens can decide these things for themselves. As it turns out, Grandview-Woodlands, the neighborhood most alleged to have been wronged by a "secret developer plot", heavily voted Vision.

But let's have an unelected cabal of bureaucrats decide on behalf of everyone what and what doesn't constitute effective representation.
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  #4  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2015, 1:54 PM
Caliplanner1 Caliplanner1 is offline
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Originally Posted by BodomReaper View Post
The great thing about democracy is that citizens can decide these things for themselves. As it turns out, Grandview-Woodlands, the neighborhood most alleged to have been wronged by a "secret developer plot", heavily voted Vision.

But let's have an unelected cabal of bureaucrats decide on behalf of everyone what and what doesn't constitute effective representation.
......."democracy" isn't necessarily "democratic". Effective democracy ultimately hinges on an "effectively/appropriately educated voting constituency", one who all equality share the same values and access to critical economic/political resources. In the real world that doesn't happen; a reality that the ancient Greek philosopher, Pericles, lamented as being a crippling flaw of democracy!

While I do understand your position on the potential liability of having our lives run by so called "professional experts" we live in a society/world composed of scientific/technical experts who run the bureaucracies that gird our civilization. These experts (for example, think of your professional medical doctor or lawyer here) can be viewed as our "enlightened/wise kings" (as called for by Plato) to guide us to safety!
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  #5  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2015, 3:04 PM
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jlousa jlousa is offline
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This has been an ongoing issue at Cityhall for the last decade. City staff aren't supposed to serve council, but are supposed to serve the public. In the past we've had staff battle council on some issues, staff these days seem to answer to council and not the public and that's a shame. Staff tend to last longer then administrations and should ultimately be party neutral and carry on doing the best for the city no matter who's in power. Not saying that's the case here but it is certainly obvious to cityhall obervsers that it's a growing problem.
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  #6  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2015, 3:25 PM
WarrenC12 WarrenC12 is offline
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Originally Posted by jlousa View Post
This has been an ongoing issue at Cityhall for the last decade. City staff aren't supposed to serve council, but are supposed to serve the public. In the past we've had staff battle council on some issues, staff these days seem to answer to council and not the public and that's a shame. Staff tend to last longer then administrations and should ultimately be party neutral and carry on doing the best for the city no matter who's in power. Not saying that's the case here but it is certainly obvious to cityhall obervsers that it's a growing problem.
Ok we have 3 groups here:

1. Democratically elected council (who I realize have donors).
2. City staff
3. The general public

I see no problem with group 1 directing the activities and focus of group 2.

You can argue that group 3 should also be represented, but the reality is you get a handful of NIMBYs, idiots and shit disturbers who show up at council meetings and derail things.

Whatever decision the city makes, they are either "steamrolling the public and their consultation process is a sham" or "bowing to NIMBYs".

You can't win. But I'm ok with an elected government using their power to bring forward their agenda. Provided there were no surprises from the platform they ran on, that's the way things should work. So much of government at all levels is mired in process and takes decades to do anything.
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  #7  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2015, 3:40 PM
dreambrother808 dreambrother808 is offline
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Lamenting the fact that unelected bureaucrats have less power than elected officials isn't going to stir much opposition within the general public. Look at Translink, the public loathes unelected power.
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  #8  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2015, 3:51 PM
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jlousa jlousa is offline
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I don't trust any city council to know more about building code, engineering, traffic, parks etc etc then staff dedicated to those professionals. Council is certainly entitled/expected to offer their prefered direction on topics but I also expect Council to listen to staff in return.
As one example, I think most of us can agree that the ongoing dismantling of industrial zoning within Vancouver proper is not a good thing and it's something staff have voiced over and over and been largely ignorned by both Vision and the NPA over the years.
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  #9  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2015, 4:34 PM
WarrenC12 WarrenC12 is offline
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Originally Posted by jlousa View Post
I don't trust any city council to know more about building code, engineering, traffic, parks etc etc then staff dedicated to those professionals. Council is certainly entitled/expected to offer their prefered direction on topics but I also expect Council to listen to staff in return.
As one example, I think most of us can agree that the ongoing dismantling of industrial zoning within Vancouver proper is not a good thing and it's something staff have voiced over and over and been largely ignorned by both Vision and the NPA over the years.
In theory we need to maintain a base of industrial land, but in practice much of it lies empty when businesses move or stop operations for a variety of reasons. So then what? We just wait with empty land?
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  #10  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2015, 6:23 PM
Caliplanner1 Caliplanner1 is offline
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Originally Posted by dreambrother808 View Post
Lamenting the fact that unelected bureaucrats have less power than elected officials isn't going to stir much opposition within the general public. Look at Translink, the public loathes unelected power.
How ironic when the real problem with Translink seems to lie with the intellectual leadership vacuum at the top of the ELECTED provincial government!!!!
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  #11  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2015, 6:26 PM
Caliplanner1 Caliplanner1 is offline
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In theory we need to maintain a base of industrial land, but in practice much of it lies empty when businesses move or stop operations for a variety of reasons. So then what? We just wait with empty land?
In an ideal world WarrenC12, the elected officials should have some iota of relevant professional training in terms of the essence and realities of urban planning and resource/public administration specific to their constituency!
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  #12  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2015, 7:32 PM
Steveston Steveston is offline
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Council (to senior staff): "Let's do this"

Senior Staff: (to Council): "OK, we can do it; but this, that, and the other thing will likely happen as unintended consequences"

Council: "We don't care -- do it anyways"

Senior Staff: "OK, but don't say we didn't warn you" (in camera)

Senior Staff (to line staff): "Do this"

Line Staff: "Are you kidding? This is moronic"

Senior Staff: "I know it is. Just do it."

Public (to line staff): "What are you guys doing? This is moronic"

Line staff (to public): "We will pass your comments on to our senior staff"

Line staff (to senior staff): "The public is very upset -- this is going to become a shitstorm"

Senior staff (to Council): "Expect a lot of Twitter traffic coming very soon"
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  #13  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2015, 7:47 PM
WarrenC12 WarrenC12 is offline
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Originally Posted by Steveston View Post
Senior Staff (to line staff): "Do this"

Line Staff: "Are you kidding? This is moronic"

Senior Staff: "I know it is. Just do it."

Public (to line staff): "What are you guys doing? This is moronic"

Line staff (to public): "We will pass your comments on to our senior staff"
This exchange exists in just about every company and government in the world.
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  #14  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2015, 7:50 PM
Caliplanner1 Caliplanner1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Steveston View Post
Council (to senior staff): "Let's do this"

Senior Staff: (to Council): "OK, we can do it; but this, that, and the other thing will likely happen as unintended consequences"

Council: "We don't care -- do it anyways"

Senior Staff: "OK, but don't say we didn't warn you" (in camera)

Senior Staff (to line staff): "Do this"

Line Staff: "Are you kidding? This is moronic"

Senior Staff: "I know it is. Just do it."

Public (to line staff): "What are you guys doing? This is moronic"

Line staff (to public): "We will pass your comments on to our senior staff"

Line staff (to senior staff): "The public is very upset -- this is going to become a shitstorm"

Senior staff (to Council): "Expect a lot of Twitter traffic coming very soon"
The other side to the local government planning nightmare is when politicians seek to appease an "ignorant" public for political expediency even though the science/research says irreparable harm will be done to the economy and/or environment if certain questionable development actions are pursued!
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  #15  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2015, 8:29 PM
Vin Vin is offline
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Originally Posted by jlousa View Post
I think most of us can agree that the ongoing dismantling of industrial zoning within Vancouver proper is not a good thing and it's something staff have voiced over and over and been largely ignorned by both Vision and the NPA over the years.
I think existing industrial lands in Vancouver should be repurposed for higher density, clean industry rather than sticking with the traditional heavy industrial concept, so that other industrial lands can be freed up for other kinds of high-density residential/commercial/institutional developments. Vancouver isn't an overly large city, and therefore much of its population live near industrial lands. In this day and age, industrial lands near urban centres are basically warehouse and automall districts instead of production and manufacturing bases. Higher density storage facilities can be attained by making more efficient use of these lands.

If we don't rezone industrial lands to other uses, many iconic Vancouver neighbourhoods, such as Granville Island, Fairview Slopes, Olympic Village, Yaletown, Coal Harbour, etc. would not have existed today.
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  #16  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2015, 8:35 PM
Vin Vin is offline
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Last fall, a former urban-design specialist, now working at the University of British Columbia, also created a minor sensation related to Mr. Jackson days before the November civic election. In a comment on a local blog, Scot Hein implied that Mr. Jackson pushed staff, against their wishes, to produce a plan for a cluster of high-density towers around the Commercial-Broadway station, in response to pressure from above him at city hall.

What is meant by "against their wishes" here? How can city design staff go against the wishes of their superiors directing them to work? It's not like staff should be free to do whatever they please, so this doesn't make any sense to me at all. There shouldn't be any outcry short of Jackson actually pointing a gun to their heads while making the city staff work to make a design plan.

Scott Hein should be the villain here.
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  #17  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2015, 12:21 AM
BodomReaper BodomReaper is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlousa View Post
I don't trust any city council to know more about building code, engineering, traffic, parks etc etc then staff dedicated to those professionals. Council is certainly entitled/expected to offer their prefered direction on topics but I also expect Council to listen to staff in return.
As one example, I think most of us can agree that the ongoing dismantling of industrial zoning within Vancouver proper is not a good thing and it's something staff have voiced over and over and been largely ignorned by both Vision and the NPA over the years.
Sure, there's no reason for politicians to get involved in technical matters like the ones you mentioned. But for something as high-level as a community plan, informed by an entangled matrix of economic and social objectives, market forces, community feedback, and (yes) planning and design best practices, no single profession can provide an "optimal" plan objectively better for society than all alternatives. (I would of course rather that densities and uses were market-determined, but c'est la vie). The city's representative body should therefore much better suited to provide direction than a narrow slice of appointed officials.
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