Austin Backs Paddling Additions to Banook, Axing Playground

[Keith P.]

Sam Austin strikes again:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-...ents-1.7089595

"It's not just a lake, it's also a sporting venue — and all these other places around the world have been doing all these kinds of upgrades and we haven't," Coun. Sam Austin said during the meeting.

Austin, whose district includes the lake, said he's been told by the people behind Canoe '22 that Banook has coasted on its past reputation as an excellent natural canoe-kayak racing course — but "unless we up our game, this could be the last event of this scale we host."

Austin said the changes to Findlay Park make sense, but not all residents will be happy that it likely means moving the "very well-used" park playground elsewhere.

One of these days, Sam will probably support spending tax dollars on something that residents actually want or need, but this isn't that.

[spaustin]

Well I try not to criticize reporters, they have a tough job to do summing up someone's 3-5 minutes into a line or two. In this case, I don't think Ryan got the nuance around the playground quite right. You can judge for yourself since the Committee meetings are broadcast online. Here's a link to where I talked about the playground. Note I said it's well used, that the community probably wouldn't support losing it, and that I'm interested in what the options are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9NUcVj52bE&t=5174s

Do I support an updated plan for Lake Banook to ensure it has great public spaces that work for residents and that we continue to be able to host international events? Yes. Maybe the playground stays where it is, maybe it shifts somewhere else in the area. The end of Nowlan could be recaptured as park for example, there is space at Sullivan's Pond potentially, maybe the playground stays and is redesigned to be easily removable when there are big events. That's just off the top of my head. The point being there are options and we're at step 1 of a planning process. Don't let your hatred for me blind you.

[Patrick Matthews]

Originally Posted by spaustin

Well I try not to criticize reporters, they have a tough job to do summing up someone's 3-5 minutes into a line or two. In this case, I don't think Ryan got the nuance around the playground quite right. You can judge for yourself since the Committee meetings are broadcast online. Here's a link to where I talked about the playground. Note I said it's well used, that the community probably wouldn't support losing it, and that I'm interested in what the options are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9NUcVj52bE&t=5174s

Do I support an updated plan for Lake Banook to ensure it has great public spaces that work for residents and that we continue to be able to host international events? Yes. Maybe the playground stays where it is, maybe it shifts somewhere else in the area. The end of Nowlan could be recaptured as park for example, there is space at Sullivan's Pond potentially, maybe the playground stays and is redesigned to be easily removable when there are big events. That's just off the top of my head. The point being there are options and we're at step 1 of a planning process. Don't let your hatred for me blind you.

I always am surprised a canoe club can effectively commandeer parts of a lake. Any lake.
Doesnt seem logical to me that any public park land can get swallowed up for a special or specific interest, and benefit a private members club.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by spaustin

Don't let your hatred for me blind you.

I don’t hate YOU. I hate some of the positions you take on issues that a majority of constituents would not support and the way you pander to certain special interests. And I especially hate the way you waste public money that could be better spent on things that positively benefit a majority of voters in your district on things like this that benefit just a few.

[JET]

Originally Posted by Patrick Matthews

I always am surprised a canoe club can effectively commandeer parts of a lake. Any lake.
Doesnt seem logical to me that any public park land can get swallowed up for a special or specific interest, and benefit a private members club.

Have you heard of Birch Cove Beach? lots of public access.

[JET]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

I don’t hate YOU. I hate some of the positions you take on issues that a majority of constituents would not support and the way you pander to certain special interests. And I especially hate the way you waste public money that could be better spent on things that positively benefit a majority of voters in your district on things like this that benefit just a few.

I expect that the majority of people in Dartmouth support funding paddling events on Lake Banook.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by JET

I expect that the majority of people in Dartmouth support funding paddling events on Lake Banook.

I can tell you that parents of younger kids who live in the surrounding areas are roasting Sam online over this.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by spaustin

Maybe the playground stays where it is, maybe it shifts somewhere else in the area. The end of Nowlan could be recaptured as park for example, there is space at Sullivan's Pond potentially, maybe the playground stays and is redesigned to be easily removable when there are big events. That's just off the top of my head. The point being there are options and we're at step 1 of a planning process.

As somebody who grew up in the area and lived there for many years, I agree with the bolded text - make it easily removable so that the park can be used by the public when there are no events happening. It seems like a waste of a prime park location next to the lake to have it empty most of the time so that it can be used for an occasional event.

People should also read through the Lake Banook Master Plan as linked to in the article, as it explains the situation a little more completely.

The plan includes much-needed water quality improvements, upgrades to existing park areas and additional locations on the PA road side for the public to access the lake.

One thing I noticed (from Google globe view) that seems to have changed from many years ago are that the public swimming areas, notably Lions beach and Birch Cove beach seem to have been degraded and smaller? Maybe it's just my impression, but they look like they are in need of improvement.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Patrick Matthews

I always am surprised a canoe club can effectively commandeer parts of a lake. Any lake.
Doesnt seem logical to me that any public park land can get swallowed up for a special or specific interest, and benefit a private members club.

Those canoe clubs have been there for at least a century, and though they are private clubs, they do allow use of the lake for boaters that might not have access otherwise.

For example, many years ago my Dad bought a canoe and a family membership to Banook Canoe Club so that we could keep the canoe on site at Banook, and just walk over to the club if we wanted to go out on the lake, which we did many times. We were not well-off financially, but this gave us a chance to use the lake that we wouldn't have had otherwise. I'm not sure if the clubs still offer this type of service, but it was really good for us - I also actually learned to swim there through the lessons offered by the club.

As long as there are public access points at places like Lions beach, Birch Cove, Grahams Grove, Brookdale, etc., I can't see a problem with the use of the lake by private clubs. For that matter, there are many homes surrounding the lake that don't allow public lake access, but nobody is complaining about them.

As far as events go, they can be inconvenient for the locals while the event is on, but they bring a lot to the area in terms of recognition and financial spin-off for local businesses. Lots of events in Halifax and other cities involve temporary use of public spaces, so again I'm having a hard time seeing a problem here.

[terrynorthend]

Agree. The clubs are private, but certainly not as private as those million dollar homes that get a good chunk of the lake access.
At least the clubs offer programming and training many can take advantage of.

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Those canoe clubs have been there for at least a century, and though they are private clubs, they do allow use of the lake for boaters that might not have access otherwise.

For example, many years ago my Dad bought a canoe and a family membership to Banook Canoe Club so that we could keep the canoe on site at Banook, and just walk over to the club if we wanted to go out on the lake, which we did many times. We were not well-off financially, but this gave us a chance to use the lake that we wouldn't have had otherwise. I'm not sure if the clubs still offer this type of service, but it was really good for us - I also actually learned to swim there through the lessons offered by the club.

As long as there are public access points at places like Lions beach, Birch Cove, Grahams Grove, Brookdale, etc., I can't see a problem with the use of the lake by private clubs. For that matter, there are many homes surrounding the lake that don't allow public lake access, but nobody is complaining about them.

As far as events go, they can be inconvenient for the locals while the event is on, but they bring a lot to the area in terms of recognition and financial spin-off for local businesses. Lots of events in Halifax and other cities involve temporary use of public spaces, so again I'm having a hard time seeing a problem here.

[Patrick Matthews]

Come on guys, private ownership of waterfront is not the same as subsidized and or paid for with public funds taking over general public use for specific club use.
Im lobbying for public unfettered use, Im not sure why you'd bring up private lots.
Less restriction, not more on public land.

No one said canoe clubs cant be beneficial.

Jeez.

I remain dismayed a private club can grid out a public waterway with their buoy setup indefinitely. I also confirm my distaste for public lands being taken for specific club use.

[OldDartmouthMark]

???

The boating clubs on Lake Banook are paid for with public funds? Can you provide data/source information for this?

[Patrick Matthews]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

???

The boating clubs on Lake Banook are paid for with public funds? Can you provide data/source information for this?

If we carve out public space what do you call it?

Sackawa in Sackville got hundreds of thousands recently if you want an example of cash.

[Summerville]

Its timely how the feed related to the Wanderers Grounds has been bumped to the top here.

How is the situation of Lake Banook different from the Commons? Its not just the Wanderers on the Commons....its the Lancers, the Lawn bowling club, it used to be the Rugby clubhouse (now on Garves Oakley) and you also have soccer, cricket and softball pitches on the North Commons.

Is this the beginning of a "Friends of Lake Banook"?

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Patrick Matthews

If we carve out public space what do you call it?

Sackawa in Sackville got hundreds of thousands recently if you want an example of cash.

I apologize. I just don't get the point you are trying to make. I admittedly can be a little thick sometimes...

Help me to understand. So are you saying, in your perfect world, that Banook Canoe Club (for example) which has been in existence on Lake Banook since 1903, should be expropriated or purchased by the City and run as a public facility open to everybody, paid for by the City? Or, possibly torn down and converted into a beach or public boat launch? Or sell off the land to developers so they can build private residences on that land (which you appear to prefer to a private club)? With the same fate to Mic Mac AAC, Senobe, etc? Or any non-publicly owned business or club that is on the lakefront?

Or are you protesting against national/international sporting events being held on public lands?

I'm just not sure why the boat clubs are a problem, so help me out here. I really want to know.

And, full disclosure... other than my childhood experience with Banook Canoe Club (as outlined in my post above), I have no affiliation with any of the clubs on the lake, nor do I participate in any of the sporting events there. As a long-time citizen of Dartmouth (now Halifax), I can appreciate the history of the clubs and the benefits of having canoe/aquatic clubs on the lake that allow many people to get more out of the lakes than they would otherwise, and in addition allow the development of world-class paddlers that can compete (and have competed) for Canada in international events (such as the Olympics).

In other words, I don't really have a horse in this race, other than an appreciation for (what I consider to be) an institution in the city, that apparently is somehow taking away the rights of the citizens by their very existence.

[Patrick Matthews]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I apologize. I just don't get the point you are trying to make. I admittedly can be a little thick sometimes...

Help me to understand. So are you saying, in your perfect world, that Banook Canoe Club (for example) which has been in existence on Lake Banook since 1903, should be expropriated or purchased by the City and run as a public facility open to everybody, paid for by the City? Or, possibly torn down and converted into a beach or public boat launch? Or sell off the land to developers so they can build private residences on that land (which you appear to prefer to a private club)? With the same fate to Mic Mac AAC, Senobe, etc? Or any non-publicly owned business or club that is on the lakefront?

Or are you protesting against national/international sporting events being held on public lands?

I'm just not sure why the boat clubs are a problem, so help me out here. I really want to know.

And, full disclosure... other than my childhood experience with Banook Canoe Club (as outlined in my post above), I have no affiliation with any of the clubs on the lake, nor do I participate in any of the sporting events there. As a long-time citizen of Dartmouth (now Halifax), I can appreciate the history of the clubs and the benefits of having canoe/aquatic clubs on the lake that allow many people to get more out of the lakes than they would otherwise, and in addition allow the development of world-class paddlers that can compete (and have competed) for Canada in international events (such as the Olympics).

In other words, I don't really have a horse in this race, other than an appreciation for (what I consider to be) an institution in the city, that apparently is somehow taking away the rights of the citizens by their very existence.

Someone asked, I answered about the funding part.


My intent is to express my distaste for public space being commandeered for a single group or use.

Sometimes its neccessary, but should be exception.
If there is public use of a park, dont give it away.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Patrick Matthews

Someone asked, I answered about the funding part.


My intent is to express my distaste for public space being commandeered for a single group or use.

Sometimes its neccessary, but should be exception.
If there is public use of a park, dont give it away.

Specifically, I asked about the Lake Banook clubs (and also asked for data i.e. amounts, and source info), but that’s fine - it’s no longer important to the discussion. Hundreds of thousands seems like a lot of money. I wonder what they used it for and what was the rationale offered by the (federal? provincial? municipal?) government for giving public money to a private club? We don’t need to know the details because obviously it’s bad.

It seems like you are steamed over the use of the playground for aquatic competitions. Fair enough. I think it’s reasonable if it’s temporary, but that’s just my opinion.

I thought you were upset about the boating clubs commandeering (purchasing?) the land they are on 120 years ago. Thanks for clearing that up.

[Patrick Matthews]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

It seems like you are steamed over the use of the playground for aquatic competitions. Fair enough. I think it’s reasonable if it’s temporary, but that’s just my opinion.

I thought you were upset about the boating clubs commandeering (purchasing?) the land they are on 120 years ago. Thanks for clearing that up.

Mostly just musing and happened to be in the middle of a specific topic.
Thanks for asking Qs to get down to it.
Cheers

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Patrick Matthews

Mostly just musing and happened to be in the middle of a specific topic.
Thanks for asking Qs to get down to it.
Cheers

Yeah… sorry for the barrage of words. Running on less than usual sleep this week… comprehension skills are not as sharp as they could be…

[mattyt]

Banook is doing a $5 million upgrade that is mostly government funded as one small example (about $4 million according to this CBC article). I'm sure they are all getting breaks on property tax as another example of funding but that's no different than any other non-profit.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-...rway-1.7045258

One thing that always bugged me a bit is that the city (not the club) actually owns 10,000 sq feet next to Banook where their beach is that they have fenced off for private members use instead of allowing the general public. There was just a short staff report in 2022 about extending their lease on it until 2042, the area that is publicly owned is shown in attachment 1 in the link below.

https://www.halifax.ca/sites/default...712rc15111.pdf

I actually don't mind the lanes being in place, not sure they are really hurting anyone. And the clubs should be free to use the lake same as anyone else. Don't love the idea of them taking over publicly space for their exclusive use particularly a well used playground although I think frankly most of the clubs would prefer to leave the playground as its well used by members of their kids summer camps.