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  #2081  
Old Posted May 10, 2008, 5:52 PM
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Who says the State Fair is a dying tradition? That's news to me....
Of course I couldn't track down the Bee articles but for the past couple of years the Bee has put out a few articles after the end of the fair run reporting on the steady decline in overall attendance. I don't see why that would be changing this year so I think we will probably see one again in a few months. I probably overstated it as dying but given the not-so-cheap cost of a ticket and parking to get in these days and the safety concerns from incidents of shootouts from out of control youth, I think the days of people considering it a cheap, family attraction are behind us. Besides, have you seen the concert series this year? Ugh...
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  #2082  
Old Posted May 10, 2008, 5:56 PM
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There are several ways to avoid interfering with traffic. There's a lot of space there, and big greenways, and a center median, any of which could be pressed into service as streetcar right-of-way. Another option would be to use Challenge and Response Way as part of the loop, rather than going the whole way up Arden or Expo. Private right-of-way can solve most of the traffic snag problem. It probably can't be eliminated entirely, but if it's a well-designed system, and gas stays expensive, it could more than make up the difference in reduced vehicle traffic.

Elevated railways are enormously more expensive than a street-level railway, and they don't serve the same purpose. Think of an elevated train like a freeway: they're fast for getting from point A to point B, but points in between are inaccessible. A surface level train is more like a city street--slower, but you have the option to get off and check stuff out. It also means that using parking lots outside of regular walking distance is a lot more practical.
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  #2083  
Old Posted May 10, 2008, 11:11 PM
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Any idea exactly where they would build the arena at Cal Expo?

http://www.calexpo.com/PDFs/grounds%20map_fnl.pdf
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  #2084  
Old Posted May 10, 2008, 11:47 PM
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They have yet to submit to developers for proposals so until then we won't know. The timeline is another 180 days I believe before they get to that point. I would think the area that fronts the corner of ethan and expo would make the most sense. You could line the outside of the arena with retail and restaurants facing out toward traffic on Arden, Expo, and toward Howe. Also, I would assume that the arena would be part of the first phase so that area has the least amount of demo needed to start immediate construction. Just plow under the parking, Paradise Island and the horse racing track. This would leave the fairgrounds open during the construction..
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  #2085  
Old Posted May 10, 2008, 11:57 PM
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arod: I suppose I'd like to see the numbers over the years, but according to a quick Google search last year's total attendance was lower because they weren't open as many days, but average fair attendance per day actually went up. I get the impression that peak fair attendance may have been more like 900,000 a year instead of the 700-800,000 we're seeing now, but that's not exactly writing on the wall that the fair is doomed...the main complaints I hear is that it's just too crowded, which isn't exactly evidence of decline.
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  #2086  
Old Posted May 11, 2008, 12:13 AM
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Well wburg, this year will be a good barometer as they will be going back to being opened everyday for the run of the fair. As for the complaints I hear, they tend to run toward value for dollar paid and safety. I haven't heard anyone complain about crowded conditions in general except the crowds of unsupervised teens on the midway. Well anyway I digress. Good discussion but it doesn't look like anyone else has an opinion so I don't want to hijack the thread on the merits of the fair...
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  #2087  
Old Posted May 11, 2008, 12:25 AM
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I love PS!

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  #2088  
Old Posted May 11, 2008, 12:44 AM
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Congratulations, guys. I hate seeing teams relocated.
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  #2089  
Old Posted May 11, 2008, 12:58 AM
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Yeah. Poor Seattle.

Nice job on the 'shop, Tenebrist.
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  #2090  
Old Posted May 11, 2008, 1:02 AM
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Nice photoshop work tenebrist. It's nice to see how really substantial the size of land Cal Expo controls when you superimpose the current arena over it. I would be surprised if they don't end up with proposals with the arena on the other end of Cal Expo to integrate it better with entertainment and retail already in the area.
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  #2091  
Old Posted May 11, 2008, 5:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Tenebrist View Post
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I think it would be built exactly were the exhibition hall is in the center (the one with the towers). They've been thinking about demolishing those for quite sometime. Or it could be closer to the older exhibit halls by the racing track..

I noticed in the Bee, Dave Jones is already blowing hot air; hinting that he's going to come out against this proposal too.

The guy is against new river crossings, a publically financed arena and even a privately finced arena that would upgrade the fairgrounds.

I'm not sure waht he does stand for.?

We'll see how this plays out, but i have my doubts that it can withstand the usual naysayer who are going to stop at nothing to stop this before it even gets off the gorund. Their are people in this town, the Dave JOnes, Leonard Padilla's and their ilk who don't care if the KINGS stay or go and who don't want to see a new arena built no matter who pays for it. This was never about meausre Q and R. This is about people who want to stand in the way of progress. It's about people that want Sacramento to be the Sacramento of 1974.


Btw we haven't even heard yet from the NIMBYs in East Sac who are bound to come out against this with the usual traffic, noise etc.......




on another note.....

Personally i think they (the NBA and Cal Expo) should bring in AEG who helped build Staples and KC's new arena.


Sacramento's economy will eventually turn around and the land at Cal Expo will be worth something. The problem is, will somebody pay for a new arena in the hopes that they may one day reap a windfall?
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Last edited by urban_encounter; May 11, 2008 at 11:53 PM.
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  #2092  
Old Posted May 11, 2008, 10:13 PM
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I was very surprised that the VAST majority of comments on the Bee's Arena article were totally rational and in favor of the arena. There were only a couple that were against it. The tide is changing and I hope we ride this wave all the way to a new arena at Cal Expo!
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  #2093  
Old Posted May 12, 2008, 4:20 AM
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^ My thoughts exactly!
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  #2094  
Old Posted May 13, 2008, 8:46 AM
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Some current designs in other cities

Pittsburgh Penguins' new arena


Orlando Magics' new arena
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  #2095  
Old Posted May 14, 2008, 2:50 AM
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what are the chances of gettin light rail to cal expo?
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  #2096  
Old Posted May 14, 2008, 7:44 AM
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Pretty much nil. A separate streetcar line would be easier and cheaper than making light rail run in a loop to Cal Expo. It costs less per mile, streetcars have an easier time interacting with street traffic, and you wouldn't throw the Gold Line trains' schedules out of whack.
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  #2097  
Old Posted May 14, 2008, 3:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wburg View Post
Pretty much nil. A separate streetcar line would be easier and cheaper than making light rail run in a loop to Cal Expo. It costs less per mile, streetcars have an easier time interacting with street traffic, and you wouldn't throw the Gold Line trains' schedules out of whack.
What's the difference between a street car and light rail? From the looks of the street car proposed for the Tower bridge it looks exactly the same as the light rail cars all around the city minus the wires above. Is that really the only difference?
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  #2098  
Old Posted May 14, 2008, 6:02 PM
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Actually, the wires above (and the rails below) are the main thing they have in common: typically they don't bother putting the overhead wires in the renderings, but both streetcars and LRVs are powered by overhead wire.

The main differences:

LRVs are larger vehicles, 60-80 feet, intended for operation as multiple-unit trains. Streetcars are smaller, 30-50 feet, intended for single-unit operation, although some can be MU'd. Streetcars deal with auto traffic a lot better because they're about the same size as a modern bus, and won't block off a block at a time and interfere with intersections as much as LRVs.

LRVs are heavier, requiring a lot heavier roadbed and track. Putting in the LRV line on 7th/8th required deep trenches, rerouting of utilities, encounters with archaeological remains, etcetera. Streetcar lines only need a trench about a foot deep, so no running into utility lines or ancestral burial grounds. You can lay a city block's worth of track in a week or two instead of a couple months.

Streetcars are cheaper, both the vehicles and the lines--and the overhead, which uses simple trolley overhead instead of compound catenary, due to lower maximum speeds. Streetcars are slower, they can't flat-out at 60-70 MPH for inter-city runs like an LRV, but they do fine at 20-40 MPH, in other words, the speeds of city traffic. Costs, all told, are about one-third what you'd pay for a comparable LRV system.

Light rail vehicles are best at interurban and commuter service, operating mostly on private right-of-way with limited sections of street travel. Streetcars, as the name implies, are intended to work on the street, at street speeds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsf8278 View Post
What's the difference between a street car and light rail? From the looks of the street car proposed for the Tower bridge it looks exactly the same as the light rail cars all around the city minus the wires above. Is that really the only difference?
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  #2099  
Old Posted May 14, 2008, 6:09 PM
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Lets just go all in and build a subway.
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  #2100  
Old Posted May 14, 2008, 7:43 PM
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Time to upgrade the monorail at calexpo
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