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  #41  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2017, 2:42 PM
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ill nominate portland's streetcar system as one giant white elephant. its slowwwww and costly and except for the inner NW, seems vastly under ridden. pundits say it spurred pearl district development but that would have happened anyway.
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  #42  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2017, 4:01 PM
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Originally Posted by pdxtex View Post
ill nominate portland's streetcar system as one giant white elephant. its slowwwww and costly and except for the inner NW, seems vastly under ridden. pundits say it spurred pearl district development but that would have happened anyway.
It's the biggest justification for streetcars in the States nowadays.
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  #43  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2017, 4:02 PM
llamaorama llamaorama is online now
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Does it fulfill its stated purpose as a hop on hop off circulator? I think a lot of people like it, even if its not a particularly good form of cross town travel. Denver's 16th street mall ride is also slow but its an incredibly useful feature.

Maybe the solution is to make it free. The Miami Metromover was an even more dramatic boondoggle until they realized that it cost money to enforce fares from the nonexistent passengers and turned into to a free service. Then a lot of people starting using it as a way to take a short trip a few blocks instead of walking, and in turn that has likely increased land value around the stations.

Of course in Portland the homeless issue might create safety and perception problems if it cost nothing to sit in the climate controlled trams all day and night. Maybe it should be free but the ticket machines remain and everyone is rationed something like 6 free rides in a day. Normal users(including people who happen to be homeless but are respectful of public spaces) would never have to pay but someone abusing the privilege by sleeping on a seat or smoking on the train could be kicked off.

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Exactly. And projects would be built where ridership has the highest potential.
Why would private investors spend money on something that will never make a profit and relies on unpredictable public subsidies?

I think investors would question the viability of Hong Kong style private transit oriented development. Where actual ridership and operational revenues come close to breaking even. Not enough Americans ride transit, and there are very few if any places where you can imagine multi-tower apartment districts sprouting up on a totally greenfield location with a heavy rail station at the center.

You dismiss streetcars as merely being justified for land development, but in the US I think the M1 Detroit streetcar approach is the closest thing you'll ever get to this idea. And I think in the long run this will face problems when too few people use the line and its no longer new and shiny. Weak local transit lines that are privately funded always have short lives. Tampa used to have a people mover line, there were multiple private monorails and people movers around Kobe and Osaka that closed, The Los Colinas system only sticks around because it has a guaranteed public funding source and DART built a station for transferring to the light rail. If you haven't noticed, transit spending in US cities is a roller coaster too. It goes up, then costs skyrocket or funding falls, and its always contentious politics. Would a company expecting that public subsidy as their main revenue stream feel secure?

Finally this gets to the heart of why we even bother with transit. It is so expensive to subsidize transit trips in most suburbs and towns that in the near future a community owned fleet of electric cars might actually be more cost effective, and have better outcomes in terms of mobility and welfare. Even in city centers there are only really specific circumstances where you absolutely need rail capacity, and almost all of those places have it already.

A reason why I always favored public transit, aside from the utility of people needing to get to work and not overcrowding urban centers with cars, is that it implicitly creates more lively public spaces. But private transit and private development that is just 'mall-lite' may defeat that purpose.

Last edited by llamaorama; Dec 13, 2017 at 4:23 PM.
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  #44  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2017, 4:48 PM
mhays mhays is offline
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Relying on privately-run transit would be a disaster. It would be too easy for them to go out of business, or cut way back, whatever. Not to mention trying to skate by with driver standards and so on...all those public-worker rules, union rules, etc., are pretty helpful when it comes to training, avoiding double-shifting, and so on.
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  #45  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2017, 4:49 PM
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SkahHigh SkahHigh is offline
More transit please
 
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Originally Posted by llamaorama View Post
Why would private investors spend money on something that will never make a profit and relies on unpredictable public subsidies?

I think investors would question the viability of Hong Kong style private transit oriented development. Where actual ridership and operational revenues come close to breaking even. Not enough Americans ride transit, and there are very few if any places where you can imagine multi-tower apartment districts sprouting up on a totally greenfield location with a heavy rail station at the center.
In some cases it might. I know the Montreal Metro is profitable but the STM isn't, because the bus service is costly so the agency records a deficit in the end.

Some BRT networks in South America are privately-run and profitable.

An institutional fund manager in Quebec is about to build a 6-billion automated metro network by generating revenue via fares (partly) and land development. MTR basically does the same thing as you mentioned.

I don't think transportation should be privately-run but I think the private sector should invest more in it. There would be much less political bickering concerning coverage areas, that's for sure...
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  #46  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2017, 5:18 PM
llamaorama llamaorama is online now
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It will be interesting to see if that line is even built and if it actually succeeds. I noticed it follows the alignment of existing rail lines and tunnels, but the construction schedule sounds unrealistic. 2 years? Also sure its private money. But its pension money. Deposited by government agencies. Would be a shame if that got lost after this project.

Montreal is also a lot more transit centric than any comparable US city. It's ridership would make it the second busiest metro in the US.
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  #47  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2017, 6:05 PM
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I think the USA focuses is too obsessed with rail. Bus-based systems in Canada have much higher ridership. Upgrading to rail about increasing capacity nothing more or less. If the buses aren't full, there is no need to upgrade to rail. That why all these new rail lines often fail to impact development and growth in these US urban areas in a significant way. The goal is reducing parking demand and increasing density, and ultimately that comes from increased transit ridership, not increased rail service.

In Canada, even a subway to replace a 6.4km line in Scarborough that had 46,400 boardings per weekday in 2012 is so controversial. The Scarborough RT in 2012 had more riders per km than the busiest line in Chicago, the Red Line (251,800 boardings per weekday, 37.7km). Still, some people here getting up in arms. That's Canada for ya.
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  #48  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2017, 6:11 PM
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The criteria for funding in the New Starts formula in the United States would be good guide for evaluation. I just wish there was an assessment of past project performance in that if funds were awarded to a transit agency with overly optimistic assumptions, that transit agency would be punished in further funding considerations. The alternate, where past transit projects exceeded expectations, should receive higher consideration. That way, cities will be much more vested in ensuring their transit investment is fully successful. If investing in rail (either heavy or light), cities would be more motivated to implement zoning changes and other actions to spur development to help ensure the new investment is successful in order to receive continued funding for other projects.

Mobility improvements, measured by the number of trips on the project, with trips by the transit-dependent population counting double.

Environmental benefits, measured by the monetized value of benefits in air quality, greenhouse gas emissions, energy use, and safety in relation to the cost of the project. Benefits are calculated based on the estimated reduction in vehicle miles traveled resulting from the project.

Congestion relief, measured by the number of new weekday linked transit trips resulting from implementation of the new project. This is calculated by comparing total weekday linked transit trips for the no-build alternative with total weekday linked transit trips with the new project in place.

Economic development effects, measured by the likely effects of the project on development in the nearby area.

Land use (or capacity needs of the corridor for Core Capacity projects), based on station area population density, employment served, affordable housing in the corridor, and the amount and cost of downtown parking. The extent and quality of pedestrian infrastructure near stations also is used in the evaluation.

Cost effectiveness, measured by the annual capital amortized over asset lifetimes and operating cost per trip. A high rating is awarded for projects where the cost per trip is less than $4 for a New Starts project.
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  #49  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2017, 6:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Doady View Post
I think the USA focuses is too obsessed with rail. Bus-based systems in Canada have much higher ridership. Upgrading to rail about increasing capacity nothing more or less. If the buses aren't full, there is no need to upgrade to rail. That why all these new rail lines often fail to impact development and growth in these US urban areas in a significant way. The goal is reducing parking demand and increasing density, and ultimately that comes from increased transit ridership, not increased rail service.

In Canada, even a subway to replace a 6.4km line in Scarborough that had 46,400 boardings per weekday in 2012 is so controversial. The Scarborough RT in 2012 had more riders per km than the busiest line in Chicago, the Red Line (251,800 boardings per weekday, 37.7km). Still, some people here getting up in arms. That's Canada for ya.
Rail bias is a disease that permeates through North America overall. Why improve frequency and coverage of multiple bus lines when you can just replace one of them with rail! It might have the exact same frequency, speed and capacity, but at least it's rail!!!!
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  #50  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2017, 7:23 PM
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That's true...rail is important sometimes, but cities with "good" transit often have horrible actual commute shares and ridership. Much of that is the idea that bad rail trumps good bus service.

Buses can spiderweb out and provide nearly door-to-door service for entire metros, many without transfers. Where routes converge you can have service with extreme frequencies for those corridors. They can run in HOV lanes, bus-only lanes, and even tunnels. With accordions or double-deckers plus good frequency, they can have pretty decent capacity especially if there's room to pass so one wheelchair doesn't stop everything.
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  #51  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2017, 7:42 PM
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Buses can spiderweb out and provide nearly door-to-door service for entire metros, many without transfers. Where routes converge you can have service with extreme frequencies for those corridors. They can run in HOV lanes, bus-only lanes, and even tunnels. With accordions or double-deckers plus good frequency, they can have pretty decent capacity especially if there's room to pass so one wheelchair doesn't stop everything.
Like this:



Most of these are bus routes. Here is the rail skeleton:


Images: https://www.google.com/search?q=Muni...0WEZ0CQZ_U9RM:
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  #52  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2017, 8:13 PM
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Originally Posted by GlassCity View Post
Rail bias is a disease that permeates through North America overall. Why improve frequency and coverage of multiple bus lines when you can just replace one of them with rail! It might have the exact same frequency, speed and capacity, but at least it's rail!!!!
A new rail line can have impact on multiple bus lines, but that also means rail expansion has to supported by increased bus service too. No line exists in isolation.

I think Canada underestimates the impact of rail, USA overestimate the impact. Because both Canada and US fail to see the big picture, in different ways.

Like Finch LRT, would it really be needed if Sheppard Subway were completed? And then you have Eglinton Crosstown LRT that won't connect to Mississauga Transitway. Bloor-Danforth subway extension to Scarborough's main transit hub, connecting Scarborough Centre with Etobicoke Centre and downtown Toronto, is a rare example of big picture thinking in Toronto's rail expansion.

I have to say, as a GTA resident, I really hate Toronto's LRT plan. It's just LRT for the sake having a lot of km of rail. Rail bias, as you call it. It's no different from the mentality in the US.
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  #53  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2017, 8:25 PM
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^^I disagree with all this "busses are as good or better than rail" talk. All I can say is that in my city (network posted above) the rail experience for the rider is far superior to the bus experience. The reasons for this are various and hard to describe. But I know people who simply won't ride busses in SF but will ride LRVs because of the dfference.

Our first real BRT line is presently under construction. We'll see how that compares to the others when it's done.
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  #54  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2017, 9:11 PM
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One of the main problems with all transit projects in the USA is that all systems capacity seems designed to to replace existing capacity like for like but at a lower unit cost per passenger.

So you get a high frequency bus service replaced with a train that carries 5 times as many people but at only 4 trains an hour. The main determinanent of how attractive a transit service is not speed or cost but frequency. Often in an attempt to cut costs the first thing an agency is to reduce the order of trains to operate at a lower frequency.

It's all about x corridor has 5,000 users per hour, so all they do is look at the number of trains required and supply that.

That is a false economy, vast amounts are spent on fixed way and stations and signalling put a few million is skimped on 6 more trains.

A train that comes every 5 minutes means no one waits for transit and if you don't need to run for a train another will be at the platform soon. High frequency drives ridership and development near the line.

There is nothing wrong with streetcars. The best ones have their own rights of way, but the main thing is to be on a reasonable straight line linking major desitnations. The streetcar in a city centre does not need to be fast, it's main benefit is a range extender for the pedestrian who would be tired walking all the way all the time. But the main problem I see is that people seem to think a train every 20 minutes will do.

Ideally a starter line could form a core for a inner city network linking all the major destinations and major avenues.
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  #55  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2017, 12:20 AM
mhays mhays is offline
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^^I disagree with all this "busses are as good or better than rail" talk. All I can say is that in my city (network posted above) the rail experience for the rider is far superior to the bus experience. The reasons for this are various and hard to describe. But I know people who simply won't ride busses in SF but will ride LRVs because of the dfference.

Our first real BRT line is presently under construction. We'll see how that compares to the others when it's done.
Nobody said it was as good or better.

My post, in so many words, meant that a bus-focused system can be better than a rail focused system. That assumed the bus-focused system is a much tigher web, and some express type elements.
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  #56  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2017, 1:17 AM
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Rail is important if it can deliver faster service on a popular corridor or when buses can no longer handle the ridership on a route.

Urban rail service has less flexibility and means more transfers. There must be a good complementary bus network to compensate for the extra transfers. If rail service is introduced, there must be an evaluation that typical trip times actually improve including waiting time.
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  #57  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2017, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Pedestrian View Post
^^I disagree with all this "busses are as good or better than rail" talk. All I can say is that in my city (network posted above) the rail experience for the rider is far superior to the bus experience. The reasons for this are various and hard to describe. But I know people who simply won't ride busses in SF but will ride LRVs because of the dfference.

Our first real BRT line is presently under construction. We'll see how that compares to the others when it's done.
The inadequate running of buses is an issue of operation, not technology.

People who ride trains but not buses are adapting to this, or even just image. I just think it's silly comparing cities' transit systems based on their rail systems when that typically only tells a very small part of the story. Public transit is much more than that.

I also just get annoyed when cities pay $2 billion to replace a busline with a streetcar at the same frequency and speed, when it could've increased the frequency and service of that same route with more buses, as well as other ones too. It's irrational and it has much more to do with city image-building and entrepreneurialism than with improving transportation
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  #58  
Old Posted Dec 16, 2017, 12:11 AM
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I also just get annoyed when cities pay $2 billion to replace a busline with a streetcar at the same frequency and speed, when it could've increased the frequency and service of that same route with more buses, as well as other ones too. It's irrational and it has much more to do with city image-building and entrepreneurialism than with improving transportation
The projects replacing bus lines with rail that I am familiar with always do more than just put rails in the street for a "modern streetcar" for the entire route. They include at least some segment--often only part of the route--that is grade separated or has a dedicated right of way and in that way does make things faster. For example, SF is currently supplementing a horribly crowded bus route (the 30 Stockton) with an LRV that will be about 80% underground as a subway.

Incidentally, a new report says:

Quote:
City Hall efforts to get people out of cars and onto buses appears to be working...but there’s a catch. Since 2011, the number of commuters driving to work is down four precent, the number of carpoolers down one percent, and the number of people using mass transit up four percent. (Walking and biking rates were flat.) While that’s on the surface encouraging, the real number of daily Muni riders rose by just half a point—2,520 people—since 2012, and the figures don’t take into account how many people are just taking Lyft and Uber instead.
https://sf.curbed.com/2017/12/15/167...stry-inventory

Count me as somebody now taking Uber/Lyft for about 10-15% of the rides for which I formerly would have taken a bus.
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  #59  
Old Posted Dec 16, 2017, 12:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Pedestrian View Post
The projects replacing bus lines with rail that I am familiar with always do more than just put rails in the street for a "modern streetcar" for the entire route. They include at least some segment--often only part of the route--that is grade separated or has a dedicated right of way and in that way does make things faster. For example, SF is currently supplementing a horribly crowded bus route (the 30 Stockton) with an LRV that will be about 80% underground as a subway.

Incidentally, a new report says:


https://sf.curbed.com/2017/12/15/167...stry-inventory

Count me as somebody now taking Uber/Lyft for about 10-15% of the rides for which I formerly would have taken a bus.
Yes but there is nothing stopping places from giving grade-separation or dedicated right-of-way to buses. Rail service often being better is a result of rail bias, not of inherently better qualities.
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  #60  
Old Posted Dec 16, 2017, 2:01 AM
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Nouvellecosse Nouvellecosse is online now
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Yes but there is nothing stopping places from giving grade-separation or dedicated right-of-way to buses. Rail service often being better is a result of rail bias, not of inherently better qualities.
Actually, there is something stopping many places from giving dedicated right-of-ways to buses, the most common cause being lack of space on the surface and/or political opposition to taking away general traffic lanes. And if there is high enough passenger volumes to justify totally grade-separated right-of-ways, then buses would have to run very frequently, possibly too frequently to have full signal priority without disrupting the flow of other traffic. And if passenger volumes are high enough to justify a full elevated or tunneled transit line if there isn't room on the surface, then they're also high enough to warrant the investment in rail which gives higher capacity with lower operational costs and what most passengers consider to be a higher quality ride.

And the important thing to consider, is that once service frequency reaches the level of "turn up and go" then having additional frequency has diminishing returns when compared to the savings in operational costs from having larger vehicles with reduced trips. I mean, I'd consider 12 trips per hour (every 5 minutes) to be turn up and go, so let's compare that to 30 trips per hour (every 2 minutes). Is an average time savings of just 3 minutes per trip really worth spending two and a half times the operational cost?
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