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  #21  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2017, 1:57 AM
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One major problem with these people pulling these pensions is that they are retired and have already moved out of state and the money they get are not spent in the state.
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  #22  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2017, 1:18 PM
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The real major problem with these pensions is that the state invested the pension funds unwisely (resulting in losses some years), and also over-projected the returns (unrealistically), a double whammy.

It has little to nothing to do with what the workers are paid, or what state they spend their retirement in. Where they spend their retirement is important but a separate discussion. It was poor management by the state, as usual.
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  #23  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2017, 6:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr Roboto View Post
The real major problem with these pensions is that the state invested the pension funds unwisely (resulting in losses some years), and also over-projected the returns (unrealistically), a double whammy.

It has little to nothing to do with what the workers are paid, or what state they spend their retirement in. Where they spend their retirement is important but a separate discussion. It was poor management by the state, as usual.
In more ways than just that. The entire pension programs should be looked at perhaps changed to more of 401k type plan.
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  #24  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2017, 9:33 PM
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In more ways than just that. The entire pension programs should be looked at perhaps changed to more of 401k type plan.
Public employees such as myself ARE on a deferred comp plan like a 401k. It's called a 457b.. It was introduced Day 1 of working for the government and I was able to roll over my 401k from my previous employer (private company). But we're still required to pay into the pension. My share is around 6.5% gross pay per paycheck. Whether the pension is there or not in the future is up in the air. But my contribution is low compared to other governments which require upwards of 10.5% contribution
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  #25  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2017, 10:12 PM
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There's nothing wrong with people making high incomes. The problem is, a lot of these people wouldn't earn close to that in the private sector with their same education and skill level. There's a bit of a disconnect here because the salary of a lot of these employees don't follow the same market forces as much of the rest of country. What's more is almost no private companies have pensions anymore. They just do retirement contributions and deferred income.

That being said, it's hard not to admit that a six figure income doesn't go as far as it used too. I'd hardly call someone rich who's making a little north of 100k.
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  #26  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2017, 10:43 PM
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There's nothing wrong with people making high incomes. The problem is, a lot of these people wouldn't earn close to that in the private sector with their same education and skill level. There's a bit of a disconnect here because the salary of a lot of these employees don't follow the same market forces as much of the rest of country. What's more is almost no private companies have pensions anymore. They just do retirement contributions and deferred income.

That being said, it's hard not to admit that a six figure income doesn't go as far as it used too. I'd hardly call someone rich who's making a little north of 100k.
The article cited some pretty extreme examples, and I think the majority of their own coworkers would say "hey, that's not right!" In agencies I'm familiar with, our salaries match private sector salaries and the union contracts slightly elevate those with prevailing wage or stepped increases that are, again, identical to standard cost of living increases in a well performing business. Plus government has to attract talent and say in the job description: "Must engage with the public and perform customer service duties." For some that's a turn-off if their degree is in finance or engineering
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  #27  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2017, 3:43 PM
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I think most skilled public workers (engineers, healthcare professionals, lawyers, accountants, technical experts, scientists etc) make less than their private counterparts.

I think most unskilled public workers (secretaries, clerical workers or admin assistants, housekeepers, etc) make far more than their private counterparts.

When you include the benefits though, the pension the vacation days the healthcare, it is evened out for the most part with most of the skilled workers' compensations, and the unskllled workers look even better.
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  #28  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2017, 7:04 PM
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I think most skilled public workers (engineers, healthcare professionals, lawyers, accountants, technical experts, scientists etc) make less than their private counterparts.

I think most unskilled public workers (secretaries, clerical workers or admin assistants, housekeepers, etc) make far more than their private counterparts.

When you include the benefits though, the pension the vacation days the healthcare, it is evened out for the most part with most of the skilled workers' compensations, and the unskllled workers look even better.
This.

I can tell you, as a physician, that a lot of my friends who went to work with the VA made quite a bit less than their private practice counterparts. But it was generally considered a pretty sweet gig, as it was easier case load with more time off and less malpractice exposure.

I can also tell you that my brother worked as a high school teacher for a long time, and after tenure broke six figures. I found that to be a very high salary, given that some of my medical school classmates who chose primary care specialties weren't making a huge amount more than him.

And finally, with the pensions.... I mean.... with most of us, our retirements are tied to the markets and the economy as a whole. I'd say most of us have a lot of our net worth tied up in Mutual funds, individual stocks, bonds, and other equities. So back in 2008, when the world decided to take a shit, my net worth just like everyone else's took a nosedive. People who have pensions simply don't have that kind of risk exposure. They have a guaranteed nut, regardless of what happens to the country and the world at large. And when cost of living increases for pensions exceed that of inflation... it's hard not to be a little perturbed at government worker.
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  #29  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2017, 7:19 PM
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^ All this is quite similar of what is currently been happening here in California.
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  #30  
Old Posted May 8, 2018, 10:04 PM
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I'm no expert on the nuts and bolts of the Illinois pension fund, but public pensions have been under attack by Wall Street for many years. Current Ohio Governor John Kasich was a Lehman Brothers goon back in the early and mid-2000s, under Bob Taft. He lobbied endlessly to have Ohio's public pensions taken over by Lehman, which of course went bankrupt in late 2008, because Dick Fuld was the smartest guy in the room.

Also during the reign of Taft, the republican legislature changed management of the public funds to permit new types of investing. That led to the absolutely hysterical Coingate scandal. A buddy of Taft invested pension funds in rare coins, and tens of millions mysteriously disappeared.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coingate_scandal

FFWD to the 2010s, and most pension funds are still invested primarily in bonds and blue chip stocks. This period of unprecedented low interest rates has undermined the funds as well as limited hiring during the recession. Some funds also have real estate investments, which generally are doing well, but bonds remain the backbone of most funds, as they should be.
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  #31  
Old Posted May 8, 2018, 10:07 PM
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Illinois should just refuse to pay the pensions.

What's some old Supreme Court Justice wearing a robe gonna do? Bang a gavel?

Just don't pay. That's my solution
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  #32  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2018, 7:04 PM
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Halve the pensions for people who move out of state.
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  #33  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2018, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by NiHao View Post
Halve the pensions for people who move out of state.
This is a big problem..Ill tax money flows to AZ, FL and the south. There should be a tax on pensions sent out of state. But the main problem is that the public employee does not pay near the amount of private sector for their own health care and retirement.
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  #34  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2018, 10:37 PM
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^ All this is quite similar of what is currently been happening here in California.
except california has a massive budget surplus.
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  #35  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2018, 11:00 PM
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So... I kind of get really fucking sick and tired of all the bitching about what public employees make. I'm not paid a quarter of what it's worth to put up with the shit I see on my job.
A lot of people put up with work I don't think I could ever handle. But I'm not convinced by arguments for better pay for public employees that rest on such "it's hard work" reasoning.

The job of government in determining how much to pay its employees is not to do the impossible challenge of putting a dollar value on how hard the work is. The task is to determine the minimum amount necessary to attract the necessary talent.

People think, "I love my kid's teacher so much--she deserves a lot more money!" But the state should offer her just enough to keep her--not try and fulfill some sense of cosmic justice in rewarding good people. Of course, that may mean paying her more than other teachers since she might have better outside options; but if you know she'll stay for $50k, paying more is a waste of taxpayer money that may well crowd out other good that could be done.

The big problem with a lot of public employee pay is that they're being paid a lot more than would have been necessary to have them take and keep the job. Very hard to quantify, of course, but there's plenty of suggestive evidence. For example, massive raises for public employees near retirement is extremely hard to explain as a necessary payment to retain talent (which is why it's practically nonexistent in the private sector).
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  #36  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2018, 12:46 AM
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Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post
Illinois should just refuse to pay the pensions.

What's some old Supreme Court Justice wearing a robe gonna do? Bang a gavel?

Just don't pay. That's my solution
YES

Quote:
Originally Posted by NiHao View Post
Halve the pensions for people who move out of state.
DOUBLE YES

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Originally Posted by jpIllInoIs View Post
This is a big problem..Ill tax money flows to AZ, FL and the south. There should be a tax on pensions sent out of state. But the main problem is that the public employee does not pay near the amount of private sector for their own health care and retirement.
TRIPLE YES

Unfortunately, not going to happen, since that would be "diminishing the benefits" to the union employees. We really need to trash that constitution of ours. It was rewritten in the 70's with heavy union influence, and it can be clearly written again now that the sweetheart union deals are threatening the state's ability to remain solvent and stick to its primary mission: serving the people of Illinois.
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  #37  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2018, 8:26 PM
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So... will this ruling have any effect on pay and benefits for new public employee hires for Illinois and Chicago in general?

U.S. Supreme Court gives Rauner major victory over labor, in ruling that could undercut public worker unions nationwide
Source: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/l...604-story.html

Quote:
Gov. Bruce Rauner on Wednesday notched a major victory in a battle with organized labor when the U.S. Supreme Court issued an opinion that could undercut public employee unions nationwide.

In a case with roots in Rauner’s first weeks in office, the court ruled that public workers shouldn’t have to pay fees to a union they don’t want to join.

The idea behind the “fair share” fees is that unions negotiate on behalf of all employees within a workplace, and workers who benefit from bargaining should help cover that cost even if they don’t agree with the union’s politics. Unions and their advocates have warned that a ruling against the fees could weaken unions by undercutting their funding and membership.

By a vote of 5-4, the high court found that the fees violate workers' First Amendment rights to free speech, reversing a 41-year precedent.

Rauner traveled to Washington, D.C., this week in anticipation of a ruling, demonstrating his high interest in the case. He called the decision "pro-workers and pro-taxpayer," saying it represents a "historic victory for freedom of speech and affiliation for our public sector employees, and for taxpayers who have to bear the high cost of government."

Rauner said the state will stop withholding "fair share" fees from paychecks of workers who are not in a union, and said state employees will be notified of the ruling and "given an opportunity to modify their union status."
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