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  #121  
Old Posted May 1, 2017, 4:23 PM
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Philadelphia is a tricky city when it comes to splits, as it has multiple splits.

Of course, any Philadelphian will say that Broad Street is our major N-S street, and Market Street is our major E-W street. There are also a few major ones that people sometimes forget about, including: Ridge Avenue, Baltimore Avenue, Germantown Avenue, Lancaster Avenue, and Roosevelt Boulevard. Ridge, Germantown, and Lancaster Avenues are major NW-SE streets, while Baltimore Avenue and Roosevelt Boulevard are major NE-SW streets. The Schuylkill River and Frankford/Tacony Creek are the natural splits. From Market Street, the city is split from north to south. From Broad (though, technically, Front Street acts as the medium between east and west-running streets), the city is split from east to west. Now, here's where things get tricky.

Baltimore Avenue (also, arguably, the tracks of the Media/Elwyn Line) splits the city from west to southwest, which can also be seen by a change in the street grid. Lancaster Avenue (and 63rd Street) splits the wealthy Main Line from the relatively worse-off parts of West Philadelphia, as well as the poorer parts of West Philly (south of Lancaster) from the wealthier parts (north of Lancaster) with some exceptions. Ridge and Germantown Avenues carry people from North to Northwest Philly. Along the way, Germantown Avenue will act as the split between the wealthier and less wealthy portions of Germantown, Mount Airy, and Chestnut Hill. Finally, Roosevelt Boulevard is our major roadway that carries people from North to Northeast Philly. Along the way, the denser portions of the Great Northeast lie to the south, and the more suburban-like homes lie to the north (with the exceptions of Lawndale and Fox Chase). The Schuylkill River splits "mainland Philadelphia" (North, South, and Center City) from West/Southwest Philly, and the Frankford/Tacony Creek splits North from Northeast Philly.

Philadelphia is a multi-directional city that has several major arterials. As far as wealth is concerned, Lancaster Avenue (U.S. 30) carries the wealth northwest along the Main Line. It starts in Overbrook (West Philly) traverses Montgomery, Delaware, and Chester Counties.

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  #122  
Old Posted May 1, 2017, 4:28 PM
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Originally Posted by mrnyc View Post
oh they are there.
i didn't say there weren't any low level pedestrian-friendly bridges in cleveland, i said there were "shockingly few", and that's coming from a chicago perspective where there is a bridge over the various branches of the chicago river at every single street in the downtown core. and even out in the neighborhoods river bridges are rarely spaced more than a half-mile apart.
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  #123  
Old Posted May 1, 2017, 4:51 PM
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Originally Posted by mja View Post
I don't know that Philly fits into this paradigm. Technically, it's both. Market St splits the city up N/S while Broad does the same thing W/E. But even that's not a good way to really think about the city.

Racially, if you look at maps of the city that measure that, you actually see more of an E/W divide then a N/S, despite what you might immediately think of North Philly vs. South Philly, but even that's not quite as simple. The city is more of a patchwork quilt with each patch feeling distinct from the others.
Sure, breaking Philly down (or really city for that matter) into much greater detail, you're going to lose the broad directional splits that this thread topic is inquiring about. Is it split more along N-S lines or E-W lines? That was the thread question. The answer for Philadelphia is undoubtedly N-S.

The North Philly-South Philly general classification is the dominant geographical split of the city -- it is more split N-S than it is E-W. There are certainly historical neighborhood cultural/ethnic/economic identities that go along with this construct, but it is also how the city itself classifies things on the broad scale for mapping infrastructure, housing, tax, etc... and by city, I mean the City of Philadelphia, PGW, PECO, PHA, and others.

Additionally, West Philly doesn't have an "East Philly" counterpart (well, Camden ). So while, it's certainly a distinct reference area from South and North Philly, it is nonetheless still technically classified within the general N-S construct.
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  #124  
Old Posted May 1, 2017, 5:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
i didn't say there weren't any low level pedestrian-friendly bridges in cleveland, i said there were "shockingly few", and that's coming from a chicago perspective where there is a bridge over the various branches of the chicago river at every single street in the downtown core. and even out in the neighborhoods river bridges are rarely spaced more than a half-mile apart.
Cleveland could definitely benefit from more spans across the Cuyahoga (particularly given present-day uses vs. historical uses), but it's just a completely different situation than in Chicago, now and historically.

Obviously, Chicago is many times larger and its central business core spans the Chicago River, whereas downtown Cleveland ends above the east bank of the Cuyahoga... where it then becomes heavily industrialized in use (this was even more true historically). There is also significant elevation change and a winding river path that cannot match up with a street grid in Cleveland, whereas in Chicago, it's pancake flat and the river is basically a straight canal.

It's just a much different situation in terms of use, topography, need, and hydrology.
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  #125  
Old Posted May 1, 2017, 5:59 PM
eschaton eschaton is offline
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Originally Posted by Private Dick View Post
Sure, breaking Philly down (or really city for that matter) into much greater detail, you're going to lose the broad directional splits that this thread topic is inquiring about. Is it split more along N-S lines or E-W lines? That was the thread question. The answer for Philadelphia is undoubtedly N-S.

The North Philly-South Philly general classification is the dominant geographical split of the city -- it is more split N-S than it is E-W. There are certainly historical neighborhood cultural/ethnic/economic identities that go along with this construct, but it is also how the city itself classifies things on the broad scale for mapping infrastructure, housing, tax, etc... and by city, I mean the City of Philadelphia, PGW, PECO, PHA, and others.

Additionally, West Philly doesn't have an "East Philly" counterpart (well, Camden ). So while, it's certainly a distinct reference area from South and North Philly, it is nonetheless still technically classified within the general N-S construct.
Generalizing across Philly's mega-regions.

Greater Center City: Mostly gentrified, steadily getting more wealthy/creative class.

South Philadelphia: Historically working-class white, getting both more gentrified and more diverse

West Philadelphia: Mostly black and working class, with gentrification slowly spreading westward from University City

Northwest Philadelphia: A "favored quarter" of the city at further remove from the urban core. Kept its middle class better, and has even had some gentrification, but also large areas which have changed little in SES status for decades.

North Philadelphia: Poor and black and Latino. Aside from on its southern fringe - areas which tend to get lumped into the "greater Center City" concept - it hasn't shown much signs of improvement.

Northeast Philadelphia: Historically working class and lower-middle class white, on the whole stagnating or getting worse in recent decades - probably more so than any of the other major regions of the city.

It's hard for me to see any specific north/south or east/west trend here.
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  #126  
Old Posted May 1, 2017, 6:14 PM
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Generalizing across Philly's mega-regions.

Greater Center City: Mostly gentrified, steadily getting more wealthy/creative class.

South Philadelphia: Historically working-class white, getting both more gentrified and more diverse

West Philadelphia: Mostly black and working class, with gentrification slowly spreading westward from University City

Northwest Philadelphia: A "favored quarter" of the city at further remove from the urban core. Kept its middle class better, and has even had some gentrification, but also large areas which have changed little in SES status for decades.

North Philadelphia: Poor and black and Latino. Aside from on its southern fringe - areas which tend to get lumped into the "greater Center City" concept - it hasn't shown much signs of improvement.

Northeast Philadelphia: Historically working class and lower-middle class white, on the whole stagnating or getting worse in recent decades - probably more so than any of the other major regions of the city.

It's hard for me to see any specific north/south or east/west trend here.
All of this detail is fine and correct, but goes far beyond the simple "Is your city split more along north-south or east-west lines?"

Philly's general geographical split is North-South more so than it is East-West. For one thing, there is no East Philly.
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  #127  
Old Posted May 3, 2017, 2:15 AM
mja mja is offline
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Originally Posted by Private Dick View Post
Sure, breaking Philly down (or really city for that matter) into much greater detail, you're going to lose the broad directional splits that this thread topic is inquiring about. Is it split more along N-S lines or E-W lines? That was the thread question. The answer for Philadelphia is undoubtedly N-S.
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Originally Posted by Private Dick View Post
All of this detail is fine and correct, but goes far beyond the simple "Is your city split more along north-south or east-west lines?"

Philly's general geographical split is North-South more so than it is East-West. For one thing, there is no East Philly.
We're disputing that. One might think so given that North Philly & South Philly have really strong images associated with them, but those two areas are arguably more similar to one another then they are to any of the other areas of the city.

Also, here's a map of Philadelphia in 2000 by race, which shows far more of a division E/W (just because there's no East Philly is meaningless) than a N/S:



Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Generalizing across Philly's mega-regions.

Greater Center City: Mostly gentrified, steadily getting more wealthy/creative class.

South Philadelphia: Historically working-class white, getting both more gentrified and more diverse

West Philadelphia: Mostly black and working class, with gentrification slowly spreading westward from University City

Northwest Philadelphia: A "favored quarter" of the city at further remove from the urban core. Kept its middle class better, and has even had some gentrification, but also large areas which have changed little in SES status for decades.

North Philadelphia: Poor and black and Latino. Aside from on its southern fringe - areas which tend to get lumped into the "greater Center City" concept - it hasn't shown much signs of improvement.

Northeast Philadelphia: Historically working class and lower-middle class white, on the whole stagnating or getting worse in recent decades - probably more so than any of the other major regions of the city.

It's hard for me to see any specific north/south or east/west trend here.
Exactly my thoughts. Each region is quite distinct and the distinctions don't really fall on a N/S or E/W boundary.
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  #128  
Old Posted May 3, 2017, 3:49 AM
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We're disputing that. One might think so given that North Philly & South Philly have really strong images associated with them, but those two areas are arguably more similar to one another then they are to any of the other areas of the city.

Also, here's a map of Philadelphia in 2000 by race, which shows far more of a division E/W (just because there's no East Philly is meaningless) than a N/S:

Whether or not North and South Philly are more similar to one another than any other areas of the city really has nothing to do with whether or not the city is geographically split more along north-south or east-west lines. And the claim of their similarities is highly arguable, anyway, depending on how one is attempting to compare them. They are similar in the fact that the traditional North and South Philly areas (with Center City) comprise the dense urban core of the city... and that is precisely why there has been the N-S division historically.

Take a look where Center City is and you can still claim that Philly is situated more East-West than North-South? Seriously? Center City runs E-W from river to river, thus creating a N-S dividing line for the city. Flip the layout of Center City to a N-S linearity, and the opposite would be true... but that's not reality. Everything north of Center City is considered "North" (further classifying into the the very large Northeast and the Northwest enclaves) and all to the south of Center City is "South" (also including Southwest Philly). West Philly displays neighborhood characteristics very similar to its North, Center City, and South Philly counterparts across the Schuylkill.



If you think the map you shared shows more of a racial division E/W, then you have a very different understanding of the city of Philadelphia than I do. Racial division is just one parameter of the split, but ok, let's actually take a look at the City of Phildelphia racial makeup below.



Looking at this city map, it's very hard to defend that the city is separated along racial lines in a dominant E-W fashion. Remove the two "non-city" very white regions (Northwest and Northeast) which are much more suburban in nature than the rest of the city, and you can see a very large, decidedly non-white portion of the city to the north of Center City and a majority white portion to the south of Center City. Or include the Northwest and Northeast suburban sections... and now we have the westernmost portions of the city being almost exclusively white... and the easternmost portions of the city being almost exclusively white. So tell me how again does the city in terms of race, in your words, display "far more of a division E/W than a N/S".


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Originally Posted by mja View Post
Exactly my thoughts. Each region is quite distinct and the distinctions don't really fall on a N/S or E/W boundary.
Again, as I said to eschaton earlier, all of that detail is correct. But if you start getting into all of that distinction for each region of the city, you can't provide an answer to the general question. The answer being, Philadelphia is more split along N-S lines (by numerous measures) than it is split along E-W lines.
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  #129  
Old Posted May 4, 2017, 5:42 AM
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SLC is definitely an east/west split and has been for pretty much as long as the city has been in existence.

Here's a good breakdown of the ethnic makeup of Salt Lake City - you'll definitely notice where the split occurs.



Originally, the city was split by the railroad, which cuts right down the middle in that white area on the map. Today, though, it's also I-15, which divides the city.

As Salt Lake becomes less white, the ethnic population bleeds more east, beyond the rails/freeway. So, today, some consider everything west of State Street (which runs right down the middle of the city) the true divide.

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  #130  
Old Posted May 4, 2017, 2:12 PM
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  #131  
Old Posted May 4, 2017, 5:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Private Dick View Post
Cleveland could definitely benefit from more spans across the Cuyahoga (particularly given present-day uses vs. historical uses), but it's just a completely different situation than in Chicago, now and historically.

Obviously, Chicago is many times larger and its central business core spans the Chicago River, whereas downtown Cleveland ends above the east bank of the Cuyahoga... where it then becomes heavily industrialized in use (this was even more true historically). There is also significant elevation change and a winding river path that cannot match up with a street grid in Cleveland, whereas in Chicago, it's pancake flat and the river is basically a straight canal.

It's just a much different situation in terms of use, topography, need, and hydrology.

yep. the two could not be more different. it's a perfect example of a map being incredibly deceiving and especially so for anyone coming from a flat chicago perspective.

the cuyahoga is as much a tall, wide and sloping valley as it is a crooked winding river down at it's riverfront. that requires a unique mix of both towering high level bridges and small, river crossing bridges. if you are down in the flats, you can use i think five small usable bridges around there, which is sufficient. or seasonal water taxis. if you are going across town, you use the high level bridges, which are also fine.

as for more? well, they just rebuilt the old high level innerbelt bridge into the dual span voinovich bridge. outside of that, i have heard talk of remaking the small train bridge at the mouth of the river pedestrian friendly. also, a much more fun idea than another bridge -- for an urban aerial tramway/gondola system:

http://www.clevelandskylift.com/

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