Winnipeg Retail

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by laumag

I ventured to the new Marshalls/Homesense at KP on Tuesday. It is very nice indeed.

I was driving home from the Marshalls near Polo Park yesterday and spotted one of the property managers from Shindico outside the empty Target Store with a clipboard and three guys.

Shindico: So how do you think we can implode this monster for minimal cost?

In terms of Cineplex, it seems inevitable that Winnipeg will eventually get a Rec Room, aka what they are opening in the Square One Target space. Rec Room would be a great anchor on the stadium site for turning it into a hospitality/entertainment district. Say add a Lucky Stirke, Cheesecake Factory, Shake Shack and some other concepts that are new to market and likely to be only in market. In terms of Rec Room I picture it more on the southwest corner of the lot instead of the Target space, perhaps with a pedestrian bridge to the Scotiabank theater.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by CoryB

Shindico: So how do you think we can implode this monster for minimal cost?

Well, it is a store purpose-built for a company that no longer exists, so I'm sure some thought has been given to that. Hard to blame them... it's not the most universally adaptable big box store around.

[CoryB]

The big challenges with the Target store at Polo Park is that it is a second floor store built on stilts so you can't just build a wall in the middle of the space. It also has a single loading dock and entrance from ground level, on opposite corners of the building. That means if they split the space, half would have no entrance and half would not have a loading dock. In terms of the space as a whole there really is no one actively looking in the market for a store that size. Most of the interest in lease acquisitions is about one third the size of the Target location. You could in theory build a new entrance about 1/3 of the store from the west then split it into west, middle and east spaces. The east space would use the former Target entrance. That said, my general rule on commercial real estate is you don't start construction until someone has signed on to lease the space.

[1ajs]

wow the lennard taylor space on mcdermot that will be vacated has allready found a tenit as lenard taylor moves to a bigger space down the st

[Urban recluse]

Do you know who is taking the space; where LT is moving to?

[1ajs]

Originally Posted by Urban recluse

Do you know who is taking the space; where LT is moving to?

friday knights another clothing shop.


lenards moving to where the game shop was

[Urban recluse]

Great!

[Wolf13]

After seeing other Saks Off Fifth pics, I'll withdraw my opinion about their store design. Comes with the territory.

Originally Posted by laumag

Except for about 12 of the current OCW stores, this facility is in no way a pure Outlet Mall. I expressed my opinion on Facebook and immediately received a personal email from the Guest Services Manager to speak with her directly.

I agree with your assessment. I found good deals at Under Armour, Calvin Klein and Tommy Hilfiger. The design of a few of them indicates to me that they are but fillers until "real" outlet retailers move in. Case in point, Laura which advertises as low as 80% off. I found one item at this price point and it was probably two years+ old. The store had a cement floor, no wall coverings, dim lighting, a long portable cash desk and racks and racks of clothing that had not sold in the regular price stores offered at the same price points. There was also no indication of where the Petite Section was or the Plus Section and their computer system was down, thus accepting Cash Only transactions. I walked in. I walked out.

Off 5th is extremely disappointing. I had this conversation with the Guest Services Manager. I really liked the Eagan Off 5th in Minnesota. I envisioned our Off 5th to be the same and when I walked into it on Opening Day, it was immediately evident that this was in no way similar. Hopefully, in time, the OCW will realize that just by telling consumers that this is Winnipeg's First Fashion Outlet Mall, that Winnipeggers will believe them. Once the novelty wears off, I would hope that the retailers that are filling space will fold and be replaced by real outlets.

It puzzles me as to why our stores are not the stores listed in the Outlet Collection Niagara Directory. There are 16 that should be here. Ivanhoe Cambridge should have done a bit more research on Winnipeggers shopping habits before deciding to dupe us into thinking they are offering outlet shopping.

The parking is a nightmare for working folks with limited leisure time.

So, list members, voice your suggestions and opinions directly to the powers that be at OCW. I doubt whether they read all the blogs and reviews on line. Go directly to the source.

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Damn. If that's the case, then it looks like CoryB was right.

But even if we got a "faux" outlet mall, the place appears to be packed regardless, with Ivanhoe Cambridge laughing all the way to the bank.

Ok, I'm late to the party but the bolded gets me... I like an outlet mall visit once in a while, and that there are "outlet people" who live for this is a new revelation to me, but from what basis can we Winnipeggers pull such a puritan's attitude from?

I've been to bigger malls, I've been to worse, and this one is well executed. Nobody FAILED here at all! How entitled are we to complain so soon? We sound like the bitter significant other that always wants a new house, finally gets one, and it's not as big as the ones we've seen in Beverly Hills.


Some thoughts:

Nobody is "duped" here. IC didn't "trick" us with "lesser stores" and "laugh all the way to the bank".

They only make MORE money by getting the "truer" stores, as these generate more interest and increase traffic, and allow them to negotiate better rents. They simply did the very best they could manage. Blame the chains for playing hardball "because it's Winnipeg", not IC.

Some stores are fillers... good! IC should make money in the meantime otherwise the mall dies! They can't attract new tenants if the mall is empty, they want a full mall and a waiting list of tenants eager to get in! If they can't fill it with A-list spots, add some B's and work on more A's down the road.

Call me a cynic, but I can understand if someone refuses to consider a Porsche SUV "a true Porsche", but to do the same to a well executed new mall just seems a little weird.

Originally Posted by BAKGUY

Saks off 5th..SO I have heard it is not high end enough for some and too high end for some Manitobans. You can never win here.

People want Holt Renfrew quality along with Eaton's service and displays, and let us not forget COSTCO PRICING!
My issue is they have not much in a larger size for men like shirts pants etc...and no shoes for men past size 11.
The manager explained they all sold out in a couple of days of opening and more will arrive soon.
The place just opened and the manager tells me they are understocked and selling lots of high end mens suits and ladies handbags and shoes, more than head office expected and will add more to the assortment. Give things a chance people.

I was hoping to get those $600 shoes for $300, not the $250 for $125. I don't think even cheap Winnipeggers would consider this Saks too upmarket, because it's more upper-midmarket, I think.

[bomberjet]

I made it down to Marhshalls/Homesense at KP on the weekend. Man it was packed, so we walked around for a bit then left. Looks nice. Hopefully the rest of the mall gets a reno similar to that space.

I'll admit, I had no idea these were Winners related stores.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by Wolf13

from what basis can we Winnipeggers pull such a puritan's attitude from?

...

Nobody is "duped" here. IC didn't "trick" us with "lesser stores" and "laugh all the way to the bank".

...

Call me a cynic, but I can understand if someone refuses to consider a Porsche SUV "a true Porsche", but to do the same to a well executed new mall just seems a little weird.

Simply put IC sold one thing and gave us something completely different. They effectively said we were getting a fully loaded Porsche SUV and then handed offer the keys to a beat up, used VW Golf with its diesel cheating engine spewing out of large cloud of black, noxious exhaust.

Sure the "Outlet Collection" is all shinny and new and generating traffic counts right now but I have to wonder if in five years this will be another Premium Outlets Casa Grande. To save the rest of you time, it was an outlet mall belonging to Simon opened about 30 minutes south of Phoenix before the other outlet malls in the area. It now sits mostly abandoned and best I can tell when driving by no longer open.

Calling a property at "outlet" mall sets a certain expectation and Outlet Collection Winnipeg fails to delivery. Worse, it tries to mislead people on what it truly is, a hybrid mall. Has they called it something like "Seasons Fashion Mall" it would have had a lot less issues even with the same store mix.

The other thing that jumps out at me is how wide the common space is between stores. Part of that is likely to almost complete void of any kiosks.

I hope the mall finds success but it really needs to be more upfront with what it truly is and work on filling in those missing retailers people expect from an outlet mall. Getting a couple places selling men's clothing that you wouldn't wear to the gym would be a good start.

[Wolf13]

Originally Posted by CoryB

Simply put IC sold one thing and gave us something completely different. They effectively said we were getting a fully loaded Porsche SUV and then handed offer the keys to a beat up, used VW Golf with its diesel cheating engine spewing out of large cloud of black, noxious exhaust.

Sure the "Outlet Collection" is all shinny and new and generating traffic counts right now but I have to wonder if in five years this will be another Premium Outlets Casa Grande. To save the rest of you time, it was an outlet mall belonging to Simon opened about 30 minutes south of Phoenix before the other outlet malls in the area. It now sits mostly abandoned and best I can tell when driving by no longer open.

Calling a property at "outlet" mall sets a certain expectation and Outlet Collection Winnipeg fails to delivery. Worse, it tries to mislead people on what it truly is, a hybrid mall. Has they called it something like "Seasons Fashion Mall" it would have had a lot less issues even with the same store mix.

The other thing that jumps out at me is how wide the common space is between stores. Part of that is likely to almost complete void of any kiosks.

I hope the mall finds success but it really needs to be more upfront with what it truly is and work on filling in those missing retailers people expect from an outlet mall. Getting a couple places selling men's clothing that you wouldn't wear to the gym would be a good start.

I think that somewhat proves my point... when you sell a mall to the people you also sell it to the tenants... you can be guaranteed they tried to get every great tenant they could, and that's not easy in Winnipeg. In the meantime, they filled spaces up.

To me, their promise is still in process while they try to line up bigger tenants... but what are they gonna say, "come to our semi-outlet mall"? Then you don't get the big outlet tenants at all, and we can forget Nike even came! I wouldn't consider this "lie" worse than half of the advertising out there, and at minimum is still "more outlet than not".

For better or worse, I'm still somewhat perturbed that anytime Winnipeg gets anything for the first time, which is way more than nothing, Winnipeg complains. Our market has some building to do before we can say this mall sucks... it is an appropriate product for us and a good one too.

[jmt18325]

Originally Posted by Wolf13

For better or worse, I'm still somewhat perturbed that anytime Winnipeg gets anything for the first time, which is way more than nothing, Winnipeg complains.

So it's not just me then. Good.

[pacman]

I don't get the hate for the "outlet mall". I know there are lots of empty spaces and filler stores right now but there are also a lot of actual outlet stores and first to market spaces that give us more selection than at a better price point than we had before it opened. I think they should've waited a couple more months to make sure there were less empty spaces and more of the stores we all hoped for and expected but it's definitely not a fail.

Convenient location instead of 15-20 mins outside the city, good parking, easy access for out of towners from the perimeter via Wilkes, Ikea across the street, and a good selection of outlet stores (yes with some non-outlets mixed in) all add up to drawing a lot of Manitoba/Saskatchewan/Northern Ontario tourists who will be necessary to supplement local shoppers to make sure this mall is successful. Anything that was built could've been improved on (day 1), but that doesn't change the positives. Come on people, cup half full.

[CoryB]

As a point of reference I recall when Premium Outlets Phoenix opened. The city already had a pure outlet mall. That said, they didn't open with a bunch of filler stores, they opened with only actual outlet stores and almost zero late openings or empty spaces.

The challenge with how Outlet Collection Winnipeg has opened is people will quickly write in off as a place that isn't worth going to. I know my wife was super excited when it was first announced but now having been there would likely not bother going back even though she visits an outlet mall anytime we are near one in the States. I think once the "new mall smell" is gone it is really going to struggle and not be the magnet that draws people into the city. It is no different than how when Ikea first opened it was super busy and now it is a lot quieter than people original predicted. Outlet Collection needed to step up to the plate and hit a home run on the first pitch and it didn't.

[ba_split]

Originally Posted by pacman

I don't get the hate for the "outlet mall". I know there are lots of empty spaces and filler stores right now but there are also a lot of actual outlet stores and first to market spaces that give us more selection than at a better price point than we had before it opened. I think they should've waited a couple more months to make sure there were less empty spaces and more of the stores we all hoped for and expected but it's definitely not a fail.

Convenient location instead of 15-20 mins outside the city, good parking, easy access for out of towners from the perimeter via Wilkes, Ikea across the street, and a good selection of outlet stores (yes with some non-outlets mixed in) all add up to drawing a lot of Manitoba/Saskatchewan/Northern Ontario tourists who will be necessary to supplement local shoppers to make sure this mall is successful. Anything that was built could've been improved on (day 1), but that doesn't change the positives. Come on people, cup half full.

Well said...

Some peeps like to "pick" and bitch...

[esquire]

Originally Posted by CoryB

As a point of reference I recall when Premium Outlets Phoenix opened. The city already had a pure outlet mall. That said, they didn't open with a bunch of filler stores, they opened with only actual outlet stores and almost zero late openings or empty spaces.

The challenge with how Outlet Collection Winnipeg has opened is people will quickly write in off as a place that isn't worth going to. I know my wife was super excited when it was first announced but now having been there would likely not bother going back even though she visits an outlet mall anytime we are near one in the States. I think once the "new mall smell" is gone it is really going to struggle and not be the magnet that draws people into the city. It is no different than how when Ikea first opened it was super busy and now it is a lot quieter than people original predicted. Outlet Collection needed to step up to the plate and hit a home run on the first pitch and it didn't.

Ikea is quieter than people predicted? Say what now? They don't seem to be hurting for business whenever I go there.

For what it's worth I went to McArthur Glen Outlets in Vancouver a couple of months after it first opened in 2015 and there were several vacant spots and IIRC a few non-outlet stores in the mix. People there didn't seem to mind.

[Wolf13]

Originally Posted by CoryB

As a point of reference I recall when Premium Outlets Phoenix opened. The city already had a pure outlet mall. That said, they didn't open with a bunch of filler stores, they opened with only actual outlet stores and almost zero late openings or empty spaces.

The challenge with how Outlet Collection Winnipeg has opened is people will quickly write in off as a place that isn't worth going to. I know my wife was super excited when it was first announced but now having been there would likely not bother going back even though she visits an outlet mall anytime we are near one in the States. I think once the "new mall smell" is gone it is really going to struggle and not be the magnet that draws people into the city. It is no different than how when Ikea first opened it was super busy and now it is a lot quieter than people original predicted. Outlet Collection needed to step up to the plate and hit a home run on the first pitch and it didn't.

Phoenix isn't a fair comparison because that mall could survive on Canadian consumers alone, in the United States.

Again, you can be guaranteed that every effort was given here... sometimes Winnipeg gets the impression it receives the the B team treatment (like Target did to all of Canada) but sometimes it's the opposite; a big undertaking in a tough market requires EVERY muscle and I'm sure it was used here.

The mall will be fine because it's close to the fastest growing neighbourhoods in Winnipeg which are upper-middle class no less. Meanwhile it nudges on wealthy tuxedo. It is directly across from THE destination tenant of our modern times, IKEA. And IKEA is still very busy. It's on route 90 which is always packed for traffic (which is good). The entire Kenaston corridor is ultimately doing pretty good and this will be the newest and best retail there.

All the right pieces are in place and we have a mall that is mostly occupied with good tenants.


And a last bit of food for though; the avg shoppers isn't an outlet shopper. Aside from maybe missing some retailers I'd like to see, I wouldn't be able to decry it's "outlet" status based on nuances because the average consumer doesn't care about that at all. They want selection and they want a deal. That Bowring isn't an "outlet" thing (I'm guessing) doesn't bother me or 90% of people the slightest, because it still makes sense in a mall. Which this is.

[pacman]

Wolf, agree about the outlet shopper thing. My wife and I are automatic attendees at outlet malls wherever we go in Canada and the United States, it's sad to say but we actually plan around that shopping so we are quite experienced and recognize the "deficiencies" in our mall. That being said, when we were there Monday my wife had no idea that some of these stores are fillers or just another location not outlets. The flooring/wall treatments/temporaryness in those stores were lost on her as she was just looking for deals. This is why I say it doesn't matter if this is pure or hybrid, it just matters that there is good content, good access, and good deals and you can classify it however you want, it will be successful.

[pacman]

Originally Posted by CoryB

As a point of reference I recall when Premium Outlets Phoenix opened. The city already had a pure outlet mall. That said, they didn't open with a bunch of filler stores, they opened with only actual outlet stores and almost zero late openings or empty spaces.

The challenge with how Outlet Collection Winnipeg has opened is people will quickly write in off as a place that isn't worth going to. I know my wife was super excited when it was first announced but now having been there would likely not bother going back even though she visits an outlet mall anytime we are near one in the States. I think once the "new mall smell" is gone it is really going to struggle and not be the magnet that draws people into the city. It is no different than how when Ikea first opened it was super busy and now it is a lot quieter than people original predicted. Outlet Collection needed to step up to the plate and hit a home run on the first pitch and it didn't.

I disagree about people writing it off based on the current experience. My family is the black friday travel to the states to shop , always hit the outlet malls type of people and we weren't turned off by the OC at all. It's not the best outlet mall out there when comparing to other destinations, but it is sure good enough to attract people within at least a few hours west east and north. If I live in Brandon and wanna do some serious shopping, I would definitely drive a couple of hours and hit the OC, but I probably wouldn't bother for Polo or St Vital. Another example, when Eagan opened, it absolutely cannibalized some of the Albertville shoppers especially from Canada because of two things: its better and it's not much farther if you already drove 7 hours from Winnipeg, so now I generally don't bother with Albertville. BUT if there were no Eagan outlets you better believe Albertville is good enough for me and it would be good enough to attract a lot of people. The same will happen with the Outlet Collection. It is not the best and could be better, but it is absolutely worth the trip (especially once the rest of the stores open) and will keep a lot of people from driving a few hours south to get true outlet shopping. Personally I will be there after the new mall smell is gone as long as there are still deals, that's where my Christmas shopping is gonna get done for a while unless an Eagan shows up within a half hour drive, then Outlet Collection becomes our Albertville.

[esquire]

^ Pretty much that... OC Winnipeg may not be perfect, but it's the best outlet mall you're going to find unless you want to spend 7 hours behind the wheel or buy a ticket to fly out of town.