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  #1  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2007, 8:21 PM
Boris Boris is offline
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Arrow Domain/North Austin Projects

North Burnet's future outlined
Austin Business Journal - 2:54 PM CDT Tuesday, March 20, 2007by A.J. Mistretta

It's an area of Austin dominated by a multitude of uses with no clear vision and poor transportation infrastructure. It's also a part of town that could boom in coming years with projects that have the potential to drastically reshape where many Austinites shop, work and live.

The 2,500-acre North Burnet/Gateway area--increasingly referred to as Austin's second downtown--along MoPac Expressway is the subject of a recently-completed study that provides a framework to help realize its untapped promise.

In the next three decades the area targeted in the new master plan could become home to 42,000 residential units and 13.2 million square feet of commercial space including office, retail and industrial, according to an executive summary. In its highest-density areas, buildings could reach a height of 30 stories, creating a significant second core in Austin convenient to the burgeoning northwest part of the region as well as downtown.

http://austin.bizjournals.com/austin...ml?jst=b_ln_hl

.........................

It's beginning to look a lot like Houston ........

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  #2  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2007, 2:55 AM
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Sorry, I still think this is all developer spin. Marketers wishing it to be true. It will be a suburban town center as best...... all separated by large highways. Not a second downtown. ( I will be glad to revisit this in 20 years with all of you.... it's a date.)
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  #3  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2007, 5:59 AM
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Sorry, I still think this is all developer spin. Marketers wishing it to be true. It will be a suburban town center as best...... all separated by large highways. Not a second downtown. ( I will be glad to revisit this in 20 years with all of you.... it's a date.)

MichaelB - I hear what you are saying, but I think that we should give credit where it is due.
This area will change for the better. I really see some possibilities with what is going on.
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Old Posted Mar 21, 2007, 6:12 AM
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I know what he's saying, though. It's still a retail development with a lot of space and amenities, not really an urban district - a neighborhood. Perhaps in time that will take hold, though, and we will see it become a true neighborhood which will truly be urban in character.
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Old Posted Mar 21, 2007, 2:44 PM
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I think I may be stuck in what I consider a downtown. I get that. There is an energy and density and texture and depth that a "downtown" has. I look at mid-town in Atlanta as a "second" downtown. It has highrise and lowrise. Old neigborhood restaurant and new. Hotels,Offices, Housing, THeatre, museums..... parks (ok, kinda nearby)

I do think the Arbor/Domain area will continue to grow as a commercial center. And it will be a hub of retail. But the format of things around there is by and large suburban. It would take a lot of undoing for the region, in general, to undo what has been done in the last 15 years in the way of vast parking lots that separate developments, yes/no? It will even be interesting to see how the arboretum will progress now that there has been an exodus to the domain.

Do you think the area will infill with housing, offices, entertainment, culture, recreation, condos? Or just more retail and rentals..... all of which lacks some permanance?
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Old Posted Mar 21, 2007, 2:58 PM
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Originally Posted by MichaelB View Post
Do you think the area will infill with housing, offices, entertainment, culture, recreation, condos? Or just more retail and rentals..... all of which lacks some permanance?
If the city of Austin has its way, I think the Domain/Gateway districts will develop as you hope. As for offices, The Domain will consist of close to a million sq ft of offices when built-out (including a 175,000 sq ft office building nearing completion, near Macy's). Parks and a 5,000 seat ampitheater are planned for the eastern edge of the development. There are also early plans for 25-30+ story condo towers (probably 5-10 years down the road). Also, I spoke with one of the store managers, who indicates that the adjacent second phase, "Domain Crossing" will incorporate more of an entertainment component, including a bowling alley (Lucky Strike?) and arthouse cinema, among many others, as yet unnamed.

I do agree, its hard to 'create' a true urban texture from scratch, especially when mall developers like Simon are playing an integral role. I'm still very optimistic that The Domain will fulfill its potential!

As for the Arboretum... I think it will hold its own. Simon owns and manages both properties, and they certainly have a vested interest in keeping the Arboretum viable! The bigger impact has been on the non-simon properties nearby, such as Arboretum Crossing (which lost Circuit City and DSW to the Shops at Arbor Walk, and Great Hills Station, which lost Borders). The Arboretum/Gateway district is still a hot commodity, and most of the abandoned boxes should be backfilled soon. (Including a Target in the vacated Home Depot building, on Great Hills Trail).
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  #7  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2007, 6:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Mopacs View Post
If the city of Austin has its way, I think the Domain/Gateway districts will develop as you hope. As for offices, The Domain will consist of close to a million sq ft of offices when built-out (including a 175,000 sq ft office building nearing completion, near Macy's). Parks and a 5,000 seat ampitheater are planned for the eastern edge of the development. There are also early plans for 25-30+ story condo towers (probably 5-10 years down the road). Also, I spoke with one of the store managers, who indicates that the adjacent second phase, "Domain Crossing" will incorporate more of an entertainment component, including a bowling alley (Lucky Strike?) and arthouse cinema, among many others, as yet unnamed.

I do agree, its hard to 'create' a true urban texture from scratch, especially when mall developers like Simon are playing an integral role. I'm still very optimistic that The Domain will fulfill its potential!

As for the Arboretum... I think it will hold its own. Simon owns and manages both properties, and they certainly have a vested interest in keeping the Arboretum viable! The bigger impact has been on the non-simon properties nearby, such as Arboretum Crossing (which lost Circuit City and DSW to the Shops at Arbor Walk, and Great Hills Station, which lost Borders). The Arboretum/Gateway district is still a hot commodity, and most of the abandoned boxes should be backfilled soon. (Including a Target in the vacated Home Depot building, on Great Hills Trail).
Just a few things…

First, Simon Property Group does not own The Domain; Endeavor Real Estate Group does. Currently, they just manage the leasing for Phase I. However, I believe Endeavor sold the land for the Domain Crossing to Simon a year or two ago and thus, Simon may own and manage that property.

Additionally, as far as I know, Endeavor has not chosen to partner with Simon for Phase II of The Domain. Rumor has it that Endeavor will be teaming-up with another retail developer for the management/leasing of Phase II. At least that is what I heard several months ago.

Second, The Domain (Endeavor Real Estate Group's portion) will have over 3 million SF of office space when completely built-out (by 2017). In addition to the office space, the overall plan is to include 300+ hotel rooms, 3,000-4,000 residential units, a 7,000 seat amphitheatre, 1.6 million SF of retail, and a 10+ acre park. Again, this does not include the Domain Crossing (which is solely a Simon Property Group development). Plus, the office space being constructed across from Macy’s (in Building H) is actually 75,000 SF – not 175,000 SF.

Obviously, there will be further developments and redevelopments in the Gateway/N. Burnet neighborhood in the coming couple of decades. By roughly 2030, the City of Austin and the Gateway/N. Burnet neighborhood residents and business owners are envisioning the 2,243-acre (3.5 sq. mi) planning area to be one of high-density, mixed-use developments which will include as many as 82,000 residents (or 24,429 people/sq. mi.); 41,000 apartment, condo and town home units (0 single-family homes); and in excess of 51,500 jobs. Thus, the Arboretum will eventually feel the hurt as the center of commerce moves to its north and east… I wouldn’t be surprised if Simon, in the very near future, decides to sell their stake in the Arboretum. Its value will never be higher than it is today and as the Gateway/N. Burnet area develops, its sells price may reflect this new shift. The glory days of the once great Arboretum are pretty much over…
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Last edited by GoldenBoot; Mar 21, 2007 at 6:28 PM.
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  #8  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2007, 6:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Mopacs View Post
If the city of Austin has its way, I think the Domain/Gateway districts will develop as you hope. As for offices, The Domain will consist of close to a million sq ft of offices when built-out (including a 175,000 sq ft office building nearing completion, near Macy's). Parks and a 5,000 seat ampitheater are planned for the eastern edge of the development. There are also early plans for 25-30+ story condo towers (probably 5-10 years down the road). Also, I spoke with one of the store managers, who indicates that the adjacent second phase, "Domain Crossing" will incorporate more of an entertainment component, including a bowling alley (Lucky Strike?) and arthouse cinema, among many others, as yet unnamed.

I do agree, its hard to 'create' a true urban texture from scratch, especially when mall developers like Simon are playing an integral role. I'm still very optimistic that The Domain will fulfill its potential!

As for the Arboretum... I think it will hold its own. Simon owns and manages both properties, and they certainly have a vested interest in keeping the Arboretum viable! The bigger impact has been on the non-simon properties nearby, such as Arboretum Crossing (which lost Circuit City and DSW to the Shops at Arbor Walk, and Great Hills Station, which lost Borders). The Arboretum/Gateway district is still a hot commodity, and most of the abandoned boxes should be backfilled soon. (Including a Target in the vacated Home Depot building, on Great Hills Trail).
As always, Mopacs, you make good points......
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  #9  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2007, 7:23 PM
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Just a few things…

Second, The Domain (Endeavor Real Estate Group's portion) will have over 3 million SF of office space when completely built-out (by 2017). In addition to the office space, the overall plan is to include 300+ hotel rooms, 3,000-4,000 residential units, a 7,000 seat amphitheatre, 1.6 million SF of retail, and a 10+ acre park. Again, this does not include the Domain Crossing (which is solely a Simon Property Group development). Plus, the office space being constructed across from Macy’s (in Building H) is actually 75,000 SF – not 175,000 SF.

Obviously, there will be further developments and redevelopments in the Gateway/N. Burnet neighborhood in the coming couple of decades. By roughly 2030, the City of Austin and the Gateway/N. Burnet neighborhood residents and business owners are envisioning the 2,243-acre (3.5 sq. mi) planning area to be one of high-density, mixed-use developments which will include as many as 82,000 residents (or 24,429 people/sq. mi.); 41,000 apartment, condo and town home units (0 single-family homes); and in excess of 51,500 jobs. Thus, the Arboretum will eventually feel the hurt as the center of commerce moves to its north and east… I wouldn’t be surprised if Simon, in the very near future, decides to sell their stake in the Arboretum. Its value will never be higher than it is today and as the Gateway/N. Burnet area develops, its sells price may reflect this new shift. The glory days of the once great Arboretum are pretty much over…
You're right... I may have mixed up the sq-footage of this office building with the one proposed along Burnet Rd (which is in the 175k neighborhood). Transwestern lists the building at 125k sqft, which I take to include the 1st floor shops, and approx 90k of offices. I also understand that a local/regional law firm has leased a good chunk of that.
http://austin.transwestern.net/pdfassets/pdf_374.pdf

As for Simon... I was probably thinking of Domain Crossing with their stake in ownership. Thats a shame about The Arboretum. The setting is second to none, but competing for high-end tenants will be a challenge I'm sure. The nearby Gateway center had plans several years back of expanding, reconfiguring and adding more upscale/lifestyle retailers (Crate & Barrell, etc). I'm guessing much of that is out the window? This was perhaps prior to Simon purchasing the property. How do you see The Arboretum evolving over time?... re-tenanting with less upscale retailers or different uses altogether? Just curious... I guess there are a lot of variables that could play out.
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  #10  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2007, 7:31 PM
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I'm with MichaelB on the difference between a downtown and a retail destination. Apartments are as transient as the shoppers who come in by day and leave for their homes (neighborhoods) at night.

One of my major issues with the Domain is that it is a master plan. Very few "downtowns" were built in this way. The master plan is still synonymous with mall culture, even if the mall has been turned inside out and people pushed to the streets. Without a critical mass of homeownership in this area (which may actually happen) and the fragmentation of retail ownership (which won't) the Doman will never become a downtown.

Downtowns are both smooth and rough. They have shining facades and dark alleyways. They have crumbling edges and polished fronts. Some landowners are slumlords and others becons of civility.

Culture needs room to grow; a chance to make mistakes; a chance to express itself. It doesn't need building standards implemented by a master developer. A downtown has to have dicotomy to be reflective of the human condition - nobody is perfect so why do we seek utopian ideals in our building practices?

Good intentions or not, master planners fail to understand the subconscious importance of the seedy, smelly, dirty underbelly of a downtown. For them, the safe route is to seek profits from all gloss and no soul. Hummers. Lattes. Boob jobs. Jesus...
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  #11  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2007, 7:33 PM
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Another observation... the overal site plans show the large, sprawling 2-3 story IBM building (closest to the Burnet/Braker intersection) integrated into their 5-10+ year plans? I'm assuming IBM still owns and operates this structure?

EDIT: Here is a Massing/Conceptual Plan for The Domain. Notice the tall 25-30 floor tower in the center, and the existing retail center along Mopac, on the right-hand side of the image

From Nelsen Partner's website...
http://www.nelsenpartners.com/



Site Plan... Existing Domain retail complex at the bottom center, along Mopac, and the aforementioned IBM building at the top-right corner (light red):

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Last edited by Mopacs; Mar 21, 2007 at 7:42 PM.
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  #12  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2007, 9:59 PM
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I'm with MichaelB on the difference between a downtown and a retail destination. Apartments are as transient as the shoppers who come in by day and leave for their homes (neighborhoods) at night.

One of my major issues with the Domain is that it is a master plan. Very few "downtowns" were built in this way. The master plan is still synonymous with mall culture, even if the mall has been turned inside out and people pushed to the streets. Without a critical mass of homeownership in this area (which may actually happen) and the fragmentation of retail ownership (which won't) the Doman will never become a downtown.

Downtowns are both smooth and rough. They have shining facades and dark alleyways. They have crumbling edges and polished fronts. Some landowners are slumlords and others becons of civility.

Culture needs room to grow; a chance to make mistakes; a chance to express itself. It doesn't need building standards implemented by a master developer. A downtown has to have dicotomy to be reflective of the human condition - nobody is perfect so why do we seek utopian ideals in our building practices?

Good intentions or not, master planners fail to understand the subconscious importance of the seedy, smelly, dirty underbelly of a downtown. For them, the safe route is to seek profits from all gloss and no soul. Hummers. Lattes. Boob jobs. Jesus...
NO.... I agree with you. I think of That area as "Downtown Disney".,,, and that is fine for many folks. Truly. But it's like thinking you're really a rock star when it's only Karaoke. ( Or thinking it's "kerry-okey" when it is really Karaoke!) Just be honest about what it is.

And speaking of Jesus..... "God" forbid they actually develope a homeless population!
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  #13  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2007, 11:01 PM
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There will never be a homeless population, because it's all private property. That's why it could never truely be a 'second downtown'. When the streets in the domain are maintained by the city of Austin, then it could possibly be a 'second downtown'. But never if the streets remain private property.
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  #14  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2007, 4:32 AM
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Downtown? Uptown? Midtown?

While we are on this topic, pardon me if this is a stupid question, but where is what is considered uptown and midtown Austin. I think I had heard that the University of Texas area was the "midtown" area, but no talk of an uptown. Why would Austin call it a 2nd downtown? Is uptown and the Med Center in Houston considered 2nd and 3rd downtowns as well because they have high- and mid-rise buildings and areas of retail?
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Old Posted Mar 22, 2007, 4:40 AM
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There will never be a homeless population, because it's all private property. That's why it could never truely be a 'second downtown'. When the streets in the domain are maintained by the city of Austin, then it could possibly be a 'second downtown'. But never if the streets remain private property.
ah, good point.... again
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Old Posted Mar 22, 2007, 4:45 AM
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While we are on this topic, pardon me if this is a stupid question, but where is what is considered uptown and midtown Austin. I think I had heard that the University of Texas area was the "midtown" area, but no talk of an uptown. Why would Austin call it a 2nd downtown? Is uptown and the Med Center in Houston considered 2nd and 3rd downtowns as well because they have high- and mid-rise buildings and areas of retail?
Yeah, I live there (here) and I'm not sure. I have heard the area from the Capitol to UT refered as both Uptown and Midtown..... I usually call it midtown ..... but there doesn't seem to be any one consistant term. Technically, I believe (oh, gods of the forum correct me in my doubt) that up to MLK is considered the CBD. ( I know my taxes think we are!) I have also heard many folks call the area between downtown and UT the "Capitol complex".

I'll stick with Midtown.

It is...... complex. Somebody tell me where I liveeeeeee!!!!!!!!
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Old Posted Mar 22, 2007, 12:20 PM
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Yeah, I live there (here) and I'm not sure. I have heard the area from the Capitol to UT refered as both Uptown and Midtown..... I usually call it midtown ..... but there doesn't seem to be any one consistant term. Technically, I believe (oh, gods of the forum correct me in my doubt) that up to MLK is considered the CBD. ( I know my taxes think we are!) I have also heard many folks call the area between downtown and UT the "Capitol complex".

I'll stick with Midtown.

It is...... complex. Somebody tell me where I liveeeeeee!!!!!!!!
Thats funny... I don't think there has ever been an agreed-upon label for areas north of the CBD. The terms midtown and uptown have been thrown around randomly for various areas of central and north-central Austin. For instance, I have heard many refer to the state Health and Human Services complex and "Triangle" area as midtown (centered around the confluence of Guadalupe and Lamar)... and some have referred to the urbanizing Burnet Road corridor as " Uptown" (and a few call it midtown!). I guess it could be worse....downtown Charlotte is referred to as "uptown Charlotte" by the locals. I'm sure there's a reason, but for the tourist I found it a bit perplexing
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Old Posted Mar 22, 2007, 12:34 PM
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As for the Domain, I think rad707 makes a good point in reference to "fragmentation of retail ownership." As discussed earlier, the whole of the complex is owned by only 1 or 2 entities. No 'town center' developed by Simon properties will ever be a 'true' downtown (especially at street-level). In time, as (or if) lots are sold off to various groups, then you will find more variety in the individual developments , instead of a strictly 'Disney' facade.

I think we're all (including myself) getting caught up in the semantics of 'downtown'... I envision The Domain developing along the lines of an Atlantic Station (Atlanta), somewhere between a 'traditional' downtown, and a Las Colinas.
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Old Posted Mar 22, 2007, 12:48 PM
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The aforementioned example of Atlantic Station, in Atlanta, GA.... a former brownfield (steel mill) site. Not exactly another downtown Atlanta, but not half bad either:

http://www.atlanticstation.com









Now this would be nice... a real Grocery store (hell, the 'first' downtown Austin could use one too!):






40+ story Novare condo tower on the way (Atlantic Residences):



Photos from: http://www.raisethehammer.org/index.asp?id=305
Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Station
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Old Posted Mar 22, 2007, 4:03 PM
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As for the Domain, I think rad707 makes a good point in reference to "fragmentation of retail ownership." As discussed earlier, the whole of the complex is owned by only 1 or 2 entities. No 'town center' developed by Simon properties will ever be a 'true' downtown (especially at street-level). In time, as (or if) lots are sold off to various groups, then you will find more variety in the individual developments , instead of a strictly 'Disney' facade.

I think we're all (including myself) getting caught up in the semantics of 'downtown'... I envision The Domain developing along the lines of an Atlantic Station (Atlanta), somewhere between a 'traditional' downtown, and a Las Colinas.

I agree... But, there's another thing we're forgetting here. This whole "second downtown" concept pertains to the entire Gateway/N. Burnet planning area; in which The Domain project makes up slightly less than 10% of the total area. It seems to me that some forumers are viewing The Domain as Austin's "second downtown." Which is not the case.

Furthermore, the initial rezoning of The Domain’s phase II has yet to be finalized; let alone the remaining 2,000 acres in the planning area. At the outset, The Domain is going to be limiting the height of its buildings to 308’. However, in the years to come, a taller building could come along in either The Domain or in another section of the planning area.
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