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  #41  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2012, 10:23 PM
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Under the original setup it could work something like this...



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Much nicer then staring out at a concrete wall eh?
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  #42  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2012, 11:15 PM
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  #43  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2012, 12:04 AM
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Ya I don't get it. If you're going through the trouble to dig an underground tunnel, why not just make it a subway? Putting LRT in a tunnel is a waste of money and potential.

Do you know if the line could be retrofitted at a later date to convert it to a subway?
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  #44  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2012, 5:37 PM
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A new Toronto transit proposal delivers more bang for the $8.2 billion buck


Jan 24 2012

Read More: http://www.thestar.com/news/article/...lion-buck?bn=1

Quote:
Commuters on Finch Ave. could have a new busway in less than three years and shovels could be in the ground on the Eglinton LRT and Sheppard subway by 2014. A new transit proposal from TTC chair Karen Stintz that would kick-start construction on three new transit lines using already-committed provincial dollars was gaining support Tuesday among councillors, particularly those in the increasingly powerful political middle.

- Instead of allocating $8.2 billion in provincial funds to tunnel the entire length of the Eglinton light rail line, the transit would run above-ground east of Laird Dr., freeing up between $1.5 billion and $2 billion for other projects. The savings could then be applied to bus rapid transit on Finch, where it would improve service to the city’s underserved northwest until funding could be found to install light rail there. It could also jump-start Mayor Rob Ford’s plan for a Sheppard subway extension by paying for a new stop at Victoria Park. That would cost about $1 billion, including station construction, according to one TTC source.

- Ford could then use whatever private funding he raises to push the subway east to the Scarborough Civic Centre and west to Downsview station, as originally hoped. Stintz believes she has a majority of councillors on-side if the proposal goes to a vote in February or March. If the province were agreeable, work on all three lines could begin immediately, she said. Metrolinx CEO Bruce McCuaig said Monday that the province is awaiting a clear statement from the mayor or council on which projects the city wants to pursue. Stintz’s plan resembles a slimmed-down version of the old Transit City plan, but no one’s using that name for fear of antagonizing the mayor.

.....



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  #45  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2012, 4:59 PM
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Rob Ford still wants to build a subway


January 26th, 2012

By Robyn Doolittle

Read More: http://www.thestar.com/news/article/...-a-subway?bn=1

Quote:
As the majority of councillors line-up behind a transit compromise along Eglinton Ave., Mayor Rob Ford said he still wants to build subways. “Scarborough residents voted me in to build subways and I’m building subways,” he told the National Post Thursday night. “I’ll do exactly what the provincial government wants to do. Last time I checked they’re going to build subways. It’s started, it’s going, and I do what the taxpayers of Scarborough want … not above ground.”

His comments came despite the fact that many of the mayor’s own allies are pushing him to accept TTC chair Karen Stintz’s new proposal, which would see parts of a planned underground LRT along Eglinton Ave. moved street side. The change would free up as much as $2 billion, which could be used to extend the Sheppard subway line at least one stop and add some form of rapid transit along Finch Ave. W. “Both the mayor and I are working collaboratively and are committed to extending the Sheppard subway,” Stintz said Wednesday. Her proposal is a way to pay for that, she said. Gordon Chong, the man Ford tasked with finding private dollars to build the Sheppard line, is expected to soon conclude the money isn’t there.

.....



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  #46  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2012, 8:29 PM
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I wonder if the Sheppard "Stubway" will ever become a subway. It needs east and west extensions to operate optimally and will have a huge return on investment once complete.
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  #47  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2012, 8:44 AM
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Good. I want subways too, none of these compromise solutions that don't address the real transit needs of Torontonians. This city needs subway, not LRT.
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  #48  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2012, 11:56 AM
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It needs subways downtown, not in the suburbs or to the suburbs. A subway on Shepard is a complete waste of money as is one in Scarb. and Vaughan.
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  #49  
Old Posted Jan 28, 2012, 8:47 AM
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Toronto doesn't neccesarily need any technology but it does need huge grade separation. Whether that be taking advantage of it's huge rail ROW system like electrifying the Pearson Rail Link, adding stations to it and making it part of the standard Metro system, elevating tracks, trenches, using Hyrdro ROW etc.
I really don't understand how Toronto got this idea that something either has to be tunneled or at complete street level. It does, however, explain how Toronto has expanded it's rapid transit at a blisstering 2km/decade over the last 30 years.
Pathetic.
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  #50  
Old Posted Jan 28, 2012, 5:00 PM
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It needs subways downtown, not in the suburbs or to the suburbs. A subway on Shepard is a complete waste of money as is one in Scarb. and Vaughan.
Toronto's transit success has actually stemmed from the suburbs for the most part, and the expansion of transit in the suburbs.

The suburban subway stations generate a huge percentage of Toronto's subway ridership. So the excuse the suburbs can't support grade separated transit is just false and is not how Toronto became a transit success.

Kennedy, Warden, and Victoria Park subway stations in Scarborough, generate over: 120,000 trips a day.

The Yonge Subway north of Lawrence, carries over 223,000 riders a day.

Even the much complained about Spadina line, carries over 104,000 riders a day on the stretch north of Lawrence West.

Subway ridership on Sheppard is approaching 50,000 riders a day. Hardly little usage for a not even half finished subway.
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  #51  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2012, 5:11 PM
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Look, Transit city will come back in some form. Either Ford accept's it nowon has it forced by him later.

and no isaidso, the city does not need subways when the density is not there.
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  #52  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2012, 4:15 AM
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Originally Posted by dennis1 View Post
Look, Transit city will come back in some form. Either Ford accept's it nowon has it forced by him later.

and no isaidso, the city does not need subways when the density is not there.
If they used that logic in the 50's, Finch Ave would have a bus running every hour today, if it even got a bus at all. After all in the 50's the density of suburban Toronto was considered too low to operate bus service. The TTC went against this common thinking to great success.

What I would like answered is more detailed ridership figures. I find it troubling that $8 billion on Transit City Lines is going to generate something like 300,000 or 400,000 riders a day on over 120 km of track.
But just the Eglinton line alone if grade separated would carry that amount on only 25 km of track.

Something is not right. Why spend $8 billion if it is not even going to attract people? We have to have these questions answered.
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  #53  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2012, 5:25 AM
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Originally Posted by miketoronto View Post
If they used that logic in the 50's, Finch Ave would have a bus running every hour today, if it even got a bus at all. After all in the 50's the density of suburban Toronto was considered too low to operate bus service. The TTC went against this common thinking to great success.

What I would like answered is more detailed ridership figures. I find it troubling that $8 billion on Transit City Lines is going to generate something like 300,000 or 400,000 riders a day on over 120 km of track.
But just the Eglinton line alone if grade separated would carry that amount on only 25 km of track.

Something is not right. Why spend $8 billion if it is not even going to attract people? We have to have these questions answered.
In fairness, Today is different. Why should Downtown be subsidizing NewtownBrook and York Mills?


For TC, we get more lines for less.
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  #54  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2012, 1:00 AM
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Originally Posted by dennis1 View Post
In fairness, Today is different. Why should Downtown be subsidizing NewtownBrook and York Mills?


For TC, we get more lines for less.
Because we are one city, and the success of transit relies on all residents having access to transit. Not just downtown.

We may get more lines for less with TC. But we are not getting more riders.
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  #55  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2012, 6:41 PM
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Originally Posted by dennis1 View Post
In fairness, Today is different. Why should Downtown be subsidizing NewtownBrook and York Mills?


For TC, we get more lines for less.

I 100% agree, places like Scarbourough and Etobicoke will see better bang for our buck using TC. And surface rail along streets out in the windswept burbs down their football filed wide roads will encourage a more human scale environment that will attract businesses and residents. A subway line won't do that.
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  #56  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2012, 10:46 PM
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I do like streetcars but sometimes I find them a little inconvenient mostly because they can't get around stopped vehicles. But I hope they stay for a long time because it's a part of Toronto's history.


Photo by me from Tuesday January 31, 2012.
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  #57  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2012, 4:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrewjm3D View Post
I 100% agree, places like Scarbourough and Etobicoke will see better bang for our buck using TC. And surface rail along streets out in the windswept burbs down their football filed wide roads will encourage a more human scale environment that will attract businesses and residents. A subway line won't do that.
It shows how many times people come out to the suburbs.

Toronto's suburbs actually have pretty narrow roads compared to most other North American suburban areas.

Yes there are portions where the roads get into 6 lane territory. However even in those situations, there is usually no medians, and the roads are pretty narrow.

The norm in suburban Toronto however, is 4 lane arterial roads, with left turning lanes in sections.

So the idea that us suburbanites live on these huge wide wides, is actually not very true.

Here is Finch Ave. See not that wide at all.
http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ll=...55.72,,0,-3.48

In fact I would bet that Toronto's small arterial roads are partly the result of the good bus service on these streets. If these streets had to handle the 30,000-50,000 extra car trips a day that these bus routes remove from stretches of each of these major east-west roads, I bet the roads would be a lot wider.
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  #58  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2012, 4:35 AM
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Toronto transit: How to pay for the Sheppard subway


Feb 02 2012

By Michael Woods

Read More: http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1125621

Quote:
.....

(All estimates are over 50 years.)

Tax increment financing: This is a method municipalities use to leverage the future lift in property value that comes from building transit or other amenities in a particular area. The city borrows against future tax windfalls from subway-area properties whose value increases. The report says such financing could produce up to $6 billion along the Sheppard-Scarborough-Eglinton corridors in a “high-growth scenario.”

Development charges: The city levies development charges for residential buildings at the building permit stage, but not industrial buildings. Changing the policy to apply charges to non-residential development could bring in $2.87 billion.

City-owned development revenues: The average estimate for the land value of city-owned properties in the Sheppard and Eglinton corridors is $207 million.

Road pricing: Revenues could also come from charging drivers, such as zone-based tolls, expressway tolls, tolls charged to solo drivers who want to use car pool lanes, and vehicle-kilometre-travelled fees. Those could bring in anywhere from $2 billion for HOV tolls to $153.6 billion from vehicle-kilometre-travelled fees. Overall, conservative estimates for tolls total $93 billion; aggressive estimates total $230 billion.

Parking fees: The report says charging more for parking could generate as much as $28.9 billion. A parking-space levy could generate as much as $19.7 billion; a parking sales tax would generate anywhere from $2.3 billion to $9.2 billion, it says.

Taxes: New taxes, such as a regional sales tax, gas tax, passenger vehicle tax or special payroll tax could also raise money — ranging from $700 million from the vehicle tax to $59.1 billion from a payroll tax. Conservative estimates for all four taxes total $80 billion; aggressive estimates add up to twice that amount.

.....



The dream of building a Sheppard extension and more subway lines will come at a significant cost in new tolls, taxes and fees, according to Gordon Chong's report.

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  #59  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2012, 4:02 PM
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Originally Posted by miketoronto View Post
It shows how many times people come out to the suburbs.

Toronto's suburbs actually have pretty narrow roads compared to most other North American suburban areas.

Yes there are portions where the roads get into 6 lane territory. However even in those situations, there is usually no medians, and the roads are pretty narrow.

The norm in suburban Toronto however, is 4 lane arterial roads, with left turning lanes in sections.

So the idea that us suburbanites live on these huge wide wides, is actually not very true.

Here is Finch Ave. See not that wide at all.
http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ll=...55.72,,0,-3.48

In fact I would bet that Toronto's small arterial roads are partly the result of the good bus service on these streets. If these streets had to handle the 30,000-50,000 extra car trips a day that these bus routes remove from stretches of each of these major east-west roads, I bet the roads would be a lot wider.

Typical miketoronto view on Scarborough. Always looking at it through rose coloured glasses. If you think I don't know Scarborough and have no idea what it's main roads look like then you are sadly mistaken. Your example of Finch is pretty funny. I suggest others look at it as well. Notice where the sidewalks are, and how wide the the grass section is between it and the road. They could easily fit in 4 more lanes of traffic there which is why they put the sidewalks where they did. If Finch is your best example, and I'm sure it is your argument about Scarborough being quaint with narrow roads has been quashed. Also notice the lack of pedestrians. Count them all if you can.

Shepphard, Finch, Eglignton, Kingston, Morningside, McCowan, Markham, Kennedy, Warden, Woodbine, Victoria Park, all your main roads, all are unfriendly environments for pedestrians to use. Scarborough offers almost zero in the way of human scale infrastructure. In all the years I've seen you post I have yet to witness you show Scarborough to be anything but a heaven for the automobile.

Shepperd should be completed as heavy rail seeing as it makes no sense to switch to LRT on either end of Lastmans screwup, but the rest should be at grade LRT outside of the core. How do you think they will get a subway across the Don Valley Parkway to East York and Scarborough? And who will pay for it.

Last edited by Andrewjm3D; Feb 3, 2012 at 8:45 PM.
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  #60  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2012, 5:04 PM
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Originally Posted by miketoronto View Post
It shows how many times people come out to the suburbs.

Toronto's suburbs actually have pretty narrow roads compared to most other North American suburban areas.

Yes there are portions where the roads get into 6 lane territory. However even in those situations, there is usually no medians, and the roads are pretty narrow.

The norm in suburban Toronto however, is 4 lane arterial roads, with left turning lanes in sections.

So the idea that us suburbanites live on these huge wide wides, is actually not very true.

Here is Finch Ave. See not that wide at all.
http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ll=...55.72,,0,-3.48

In fact I would bet that Toronto's small arterial roads are partly the result of the good bus service on these streets. If these streets had to handle the 30,000-50,000 extra car trips a day that these bus routes remove from stretches of each of these major east-west roads, I bet the roads would be a lot wider.
What???
You actually just proved Andrew's point. The road can easily be doubled to accommodate above ground transit.
Most of Etobicoke, Scarborough and North York can easily accommodate above ground transit.
Heck, if downtown Chicago can do it, Toronto suburbs should have no choice but to do it.
Why do suburbanites think their special and deserve such great mass transit?
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