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  #1  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2012, 12:53 AM
Janbe Janbe is offline
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Does Toronto Need A Casino?

If there is going to be a casino in Toronto it is going to be at Woodbine Racetrack. Woodbine already has slots so adding more gaming would be more acceptable to city council.

The better question to ask is if the MTCC project going to go forward without the casino?
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  #2  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2012, 3:55 AM
Janbe Janbe is offline
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A casino is not going to happen in the Downtown core. This 3 billion casino driven project is not happening. I can say this with 100% certainly that this is a proposal that will not ever get off the ground.

As long as the casino is apart of this project talking about it is a waste of time.

We all know this is not going to happen.
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  #3  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2012, 5:11 AM
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And you got any evidence to back this up Janbe? They would likely approve this since it would be bring revenue to the city.
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Old Posted Oct 14, 2012, 6:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Janbe View Post
A casino is not going to happen in the Downtown core. This 3 billion casino driven project is not happening. I can say this with 100% certainly that this is a proposal that will not ever get off the ground.

As long as the casino is apart of this project talking about it is a waste of time.

We all know this is not going to happen.
Is there a resistance to gambling in Toronto? I find it amazing that such a large city has no (legal) table gambling (to the best of my knowledge anyway).

I'm in Toronto quite often these days and it would nice to have a downtown casino to lose some money at.

EDIT: Just saw that this is a Foster design and it looks awesome. Toronto is killing it with big name projects lately! I would love to see this get built.

Last edited by artvandelay; Oct 14, 2012 at 7:21 AM.
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  #5  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2012, 7:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Janbe View Post
If there is going to be a casino in Toronto it is going to be at Woodbine Racetrack. Woodbine already has slots so adding more gaming would be more acceptable to city council.

The better question to ask is if the MTCC project going to go forward without the casino?
Oxford purchased the convention centre long before the provincial government announced plans to allow a casino in Toronto. Icing on the cake, the press released at that time was they would proceed with a multi-tower development and redevelopment of all of Front street when the market conditions were right.
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Old Posted Oct 14, 2012, 1:33 PM
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Originally Posted by blacktrojan3921 View Post
And you got any evidence to back this up Janbe? They would likely approve this since it would be bring revenue to the city.
The evidence would suggest that Janbe is wrong, and without further proof I would imagine his statement was just gut-feeling speculation. On the contrary Rob Ford has said he supports a casino in the downtown area. Which to me is one of the better things Ford has done, and an indication that the casino, at least, will get approval.

Ford supports casino
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  #7  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2012, 3:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Janbe View Post
A casino is not going to happen in the Downtown core. This 3 billion casino driven project is not happening. I can say this with 100% certainly that this is a proposal that will not ever get off the ground.

As long as the casino is apart of this project talking about it is a waste of time.

We all know this is not going to happen.
Council appears split on the vote. They are the largest obstacle. The number of experienced parties drawing up plans for a casino resort in Toronto suggests that there is a strong business case. These aren't the Stinsons and Mirvishes of the world.
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Old Posted Oct 14, 2012, 3:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Janbe View Post
If there is going to be a casino in Toronto it is going to be at Woodbine Racetrack. Woodbine already has slots so adding more gaming would be more acceptable to city council.
If that's how simplistic the discussion is down at City Council its time to toss the lot of them.
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  #9  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2012, 3:24 PM
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Your logic is flawed. OLG is removing all slots from racetracks in support of their casinos and their casino partners.
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  #10  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2012, 1:04 AM
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Does Toronto Need A Casino?

In regards to urban Casinos they are simply money changers and nothing more. They have a net minus effect on the City coffers then positive.

There is a reason you keep Casinos like "resorts" and bit of a trek to reach by Car or Shuttle. Having a highly accessible Casino in your core only brings habit gamblers to play.

The Casino in my hometown of Regina was built as a desperate push to bring some life back to the Down town when it layed in a coma. The Casino has since expanded and added a little Showlounge but the Casino floor and gaming rooms are full of the Cities most at risk.

All the Province/OLG is doing is slicing up the profits from is big Casinos, most of whom don't even make money in the first place. I think only Casino Rama makes a profit, the rest bled cash.

Casinos add nothing to your City. Ask Windsor and Detroit how well it has helped them. And ask how nervous Cities in Ohio are now as the State has arm twisted all of the major Cities into building "resort" style Casinos right smack in the middle of their towns.
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  #11  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2012, 1:30 AM
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  #12  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2012, 1:36 AM
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I really want this project to go ahead. Oxford properties in a world class company and this project is a project that will be wonderful for Toronto.
The city council should work with Oxford Properties to get benefits from this project. Instead to have councillors are ready to kill this project because of the casino.

I'm sorry guys but Toronto is not a world class city and city council is not a world class bunch. There is no lets talk and see how we can make this world class proposal benefit the city.

Councillor like Adam Vaughan this is like a bomb going off in the city, another councillor calling this entire world class project designed by Foster lipstick on a pig because of the casino.


I do not knows guys maybe you can cheer me up because the attitude on city council is getting me very upset.
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  #13  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2012, 1:53 AM
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I just dont see locals going to the casino.

Toronto gets 40 million tourist per year, those are the ones that will be going.

I want the railway decked, I want these towers and convention center built.
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  #14  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2012, 2:07 AM
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We can lose this wonderful project because of city council. This is really depressing.
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  #15  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2012, 2:22 AM
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The Rhetoric Adam Vaughan is saying

http://www.ward20.ca/bulletins_article.php?article=182

You're need to help save us from a casino
Cities across the continent are being assaulted by casino developers

By Adam Vaughan
Print this story

Soon, City Council will be debating allowing a mega casino to be built in Toronto and casino lobbyists have their eyes on our waterfront.

Toronto and East York Community Council wants to hear from residents about their views on the potential location of a Casino in downtown Toronto. We have scheduled a special public consultation session and I hope you can attend:

Date: Wednesday October 10, 2012
Time: 6:00 pm
Location: Council Chambers, Toronto City Hall, 100 Queen St W

To register to speak, please contact the Clerk, Ros Dyers either by email teycc@toronto.ca or phone 416-392-7033.

There are a number of impacts to locating a casino in an established community. To read the staff report follow this link.
Stand up for our city and act to stop a mega casino from being built in Toronto.
Join the No CASINO Toronto campaign!

Why am I asking you to join the campaign?

Why am asking you to come to City Hall?

Casinos are bad for cities


Not convinced? Then check out what's happening in every corner of the continent. Google "No Casino" and see what comes up. Whether it's Vancouver or Miami, Manhattan, Gettysburg or Pawtucket, city after city, town after town, everyone seems to be fighting a casino proposal.

Now Google "Casino debt." Just as quickly, you find out why, from Nevada to Nantucket, from Windsor to Niagara, casinos all over North America are going broke. And when they fail, the cities they reside in fail too.

Like the compulsive gamblers they create, casinos all over the continent are losing big right now. Instead of walking away from their losses, they are upping the ante by trying to open new operations in more cities. What they are hoping to find is a new generation of gamblers to keep the house afloat. Let's keep Toronto as far away from this mess as possible.

There are good reasons to avoid a casino. The facts and experience of other municipalities make the case pretty clear. In Montreal, virtually 93% of the casino's revenue came straight out of the local economy (MacIasac 1994:38). This means that money bet at the casino wasn’t spent on clothes, rent or food locally, it was sent to the multi-national operator of the gambling facility. Money spent on dining and drinks wasn't spent in local bars or restaurants, it was also sent to the multi-national casino operators.

In Atlantic City, 40% of the bars and restaurants near the casino went bankrupt (Corelli, Memeth and Driedger, 1994b). St Louis had a similar experience. The most quoted expert economist, Earl Grinols of Baylor University, says that as economic drivers or job creators, casinos are "at best a wash, for every job created there is a job lost."

If the business case doesn't scare you, consider the impact on the city's quality of life. From a social perspective, crime goes up. Street crimes, fraud, loan sharking and prostitution rise when a casino comes to town. Before the casino, Atlantic City rarely made the top 50 list of crime-ridden cities. Since gambling came to town they almost always rank near the top.

Casinos are inward looking complexes. Windows are rare; food and drinks served cheap and on site to keep gamblers betting. The head of MGM, when talking to Toronto Council said that a casino requires one parking spot for every slot machine. 5000 are forecast in Toronto. Sound like your vision for the waterfront?

One study reports that property values close to a casino drop by about ten per cent. Based on the meagre amount the province shares with local municipalities, the drop in municipal tax revenue will likely outpace whatever cut of the take Toronto gets.

The casino industry isn't even contemplating paying market-value for public land. The head of MGM has said that if they got a deal on the land, the City could get a bigger slice of the take. This is coming from a company that's losing money hand over fist in Las Vegas right now.

Finally there is the impact on the folks who purport to enjoy gambling. A 2003 report by Earl Grinols calculates the social cost at $289 for every $46 of government revenue. That is over $6.00 in social cost for every $1.00 generated! While most of these costs are tied to crime, there is a significant impact on healthcare costs. Addicted gamblers cost a lot to cure, they often blaze a trail of financial ruin at work and home, and require treatment to manage their affliction. It's next to impossible to get this type of help in Toronto now. Manufacturing more problem gamblers will not help. Proximity to a casino is the most significant risk factor related to problem gambling.

Torontonians have considered this issue before and reached the right conclusion. The province is back again and talking up dreams of Celine Dion and Cirque du Soleil tents, conventions and luxury hotels. They won't produce a business plan, won't release the studies that support their case, won't tell us what the city's cut might be, and they have just passed legislation removing the requirement to hold a referendum on this issue.

Cynical as that might be, it's probably the only smart part of the proposal because it's clear that if it did go to a vote, Toronto would say no again. That you can bet on.

Want to find out more? Follow this link:

Sincerely,

Adam Vaughan

Last edited by Janbe; Oct 15, 2012 at 3:00 AM.
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  #16  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2012, 2:34 AM
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  #17  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2012, 2:39 AM
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Originally Posted by koops65 View Post
You are entitled to your opinion of course, but I see nothing in that post that has anything whatsoever to do with the 50 tallest proposals.
One of the proposals involves a Casino, It is very much part of the discussion.

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Originally Posted by caltrane74 View Post
I just dont see locals going to the casino.

Toronto gets 40 million tourist per year, those are the ones that will be going.

I want the railway decked, I want these towers and convention center built.
The Railway will be decked (now or in due time) and the Convention Centre will be expanded regardless of this Casino.

If I am travelling for gaming Toronto or any other City that is not a top tier gaming destination it would be low on my list.

Its not that steep to travel to Vegas these days. Why would I come to Toronto if a trip to Vegas would cost the same amount of cash (If gaming is my top priority).

People only support this project because a shiny tower(s) connected to it but IMO its a shoddy proposal. In this soft market we have seen the bells and whistles come out out for super proposals when the only one that is most likely getting built is a scaled (back to reality) version of 10 YORK. Selling *just* Condos does not work any more you have to throw all out the stops in this market to get people to sniff.

Toronto had 40 million tourists prior to the Casino and won't gain any more because of this. Think of all of the established gaming Mecca's across the globe, that have tailored their local economies to lure and prop up gaming. Toronto adding a Municipal Casino does not make it stand out. Its a Casino just like any other in Montreal, in Pittsburgh etc. Aside from the USA States/Counties that lave legalized gaming and made it a large chunk of their Economies, or the resort styled Aboriginal Casinos. the large "public-Private" Casinos are after thoughts. Nobody is running to Pittsburgh to go gamble at the Rivers Casino.

You could almost say Toronto is way to big for some low-brow Casino, in all honesty it gets lost in the mix and does more harm then good to the City on a macro level.

My home town did the exact same thing only that the Downtown was dead (not a issue in Toronto) not just that the Gov't was broke and its been a flop. The Casino makes tons of money but its all local money from gambling addicts. Once the cash goes into the Provincial coffers and after staff payouts, pensions, and social program costs nobody really knows if the Casino makes a true profit. Its one hand switching money to the other.

Chicago, LA, and New York all manage just fine without major Casinos whiten their City limits. Casino show a Govt strapped for cash not a Govt on the upbound. Since Toronto has little Autonomy and is treated as a whipping boy by Queens Park it having this Casino issue somewhat forced on us, but if it is held up to a Referendum vote it wouldn't stand a chance. I was for all for a Casino if it was the Exhibition Lands as a secluded resort type atmosphere could be created there, clsoe to the Highway and somewhat segmented from the City, but once you start trying to plop something downtown then all your doing is reaching for roaches.

If I live in Buffalo why would I drive to Toronto and deal with Traffic when I can can just hit Fallsview instead? Its closer, would be cheaper and offer a more "resort" type of an escape that I am looking for. If the Govt had any smarts it would make Niagara into a gaming Mecca, but it can't even manage the two Casinos there right now and has to close one of em' down... FAIL.

Casino just make coin off the local public. The Gov't is essentially just hedging a soft tax by making gambling more easy to get too.

The only place that has done the Casino argument right is Alberta. you have a bunch of private Casinos scattered all over the place, all they do is cut the Gov't a "charitable" cheque. you hear no complaints from the locals as these things are a bit smaller in operation. You don't have the mega-Casinos there aside from the one in the West Ed Mall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Janbe View Post
We can lose this wonderful project because of city council. This is really depressing.

If this proposal was contingent on the Casino to become a reality it was a pipe dream from the start.

The demand for Convention space is there, the demand for office space is there, with the expanded convention space the need for Hotel space is real too, the condo demand is 50/50 but we can all agree is legitimate and real regardless of the state of the market.

So if this really all comes down to Council and Casino vote?

Then it was a smoke and mirror show from the start.

Last edited by osmo; Oct 15, 2012 at 3:25 AM.
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  #18  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2012, 2:51 AM
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http://www.ward20.ca/bulletins_article.php?article=182

I hope to see you at City Hall next Tuesday.
Yeah this goof sounds like a real C U Next Tuesday...
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  #19  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2012, 3:24 AM
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I agree 100% with Adam Vaughan, Toronto does not need a casino. Even if it is to have one Front Street, or the Waterfront is no place for it. Many of you seem blinded by renders of proposed towers over the fact the Toronto economy is not crippled only mismanaged. This Oxford development has been in the works for about 18 months now and that was before the idea of casinos was being floated around. With or without a casino we can expect Oxford to come forward with a massive proposal for their site. I was in the Vancouver Casino for all of 20 minutes 3 weeks ago killing some time before my flight and I can tell you it was full of zombies playing 1 cent and 5 cent slot machines. It was a sad sight. We can do so much better, it only takes a bit of vision and hard work to make a city work well. A casino will ad nothing culturally positive to Toronto. If not having a casino means not getting a Foster 300m I'm fine with that, but from what I know we are getting a Foster anyway.
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  #20  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2012, 3:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Janbe View Post
We can lose this wonderful project because of city council. This is really depressing.
This project has been in play long before the Casino idea was out there. oxford has been looking into a huge project for that site that will move forward with or without a casino. I have a very good and very senior connection at Oxford. In fact about a year ago I posted on SSC that plans for Front were in the works.
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