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  #21  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2012, 3:46 AM
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That is one of the most ridiculous articles I've ever read. His arguments amount to nothing but misinformation resulting from out of context research. And the comparison between Atlantic City and Toronto is insane, he could have at least found a city that is remotely similar. It's a shame that this person is an elected official.
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  #22  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2012, 4:14 AM
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  #23  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2012, 5:20 AM
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The effects of a casino are the attitude that people associate it with. If you think it'll ruin the area, then you don't go to that area, therefore ruinging the area. If you continue to keep the area peaceful and the way it was (with more people) than the benefits begin to outway the negatives. It's the community that lets the community die not the casinos. If people wouldn't just give up everytime a casino opens up in the neighborhood then maybe the community may still prosper. I'm not sure, but that is what seems logial to me.
I don't have any economic background, strictly physics and Chemistry for me. So I may be a little too ignorant to justify the casino, but I wouldn't turn the idea down.
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  #24  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2012, 12:59 PM
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Count me with those against the idea of a huge casino downtown. Such a project has done nothing for Montreal, except provide another tax on the poor/stupid/mathematically-challenged. The social costs of Casinos are incalculable. Odds are (if you will pardon the pun), they are a net loss to the local economy, and now that almost all big cities have them, casinos do absolutely zilch to bring tourists to a city. At best, they are a shell game. At worst, they suck the life out of neighboring areas, increase crime, and increase destitude among citizens (gambling addition, broken homes, etc.). Don't sell your grandmothers just for yet another tall building.
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  #25  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2012, 2:59 PM
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Does Toronto Need A Casino?

To clear up the clutter on the Canada's 50 Tallest thread I've started this thread to pontificate the merits for and against a Casino in the GTA.

Discuss.
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  #26  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2012, 12:42 AM
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Why not build the Casino in Rexdale instead? The site already has a gambling facility and it couldn't possibly be more of an eyesore than in its current state. It's also a stone's throw from Pearson.

Then again, the downtown convention center is overdue to be gutted and revitalized.
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  #27  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2012, 3:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrewjm3D View Post
I agree 100% with Adam Vaughan, Toronto does not need a casino. Even if it is to have one Front Street, or the Waterfront is no place for it. Many of you seem blinded by renders of proposed towers over the fact the Toronto economy is not crippled only mismanaged. This Oxford development has been in the works for about 18 months now and that was before the idea of casinos was being floated around. With or without a casino we can expect Oxford to come forward with a massive proposal for their site. I was in the Vancouver Casino for all of 20 minutes 3 weeks ago killing some time before my flight and I can tell you it was full of zombies playing 1 cent and 5 cent slot machines. It was a sad sight. We can do so much better, it only takes a bit of vision and hard work to make a city work well. A casino will add nothing culturally positive to Toronto. If not having a casino means not getting a Foster 300m I'm fine with that, but from what I know we are getting a Foster anyway.
EXACTLY. We don't need a casino to revitalize downtown, we don't need a casino at all. I can see no net benefits out of this, creating a few hundred low paying jobs would be outweighed by all the negative social impacts.
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  #28  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2012, 3:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artvandelay View Post
That is one of the most ridiculous articles I've ever read. His arguments amount to nothing but misinformation resulting from out of context research. And the comparison between Atlantic City and Toronto is insane, he could have at least found a city that is remotely similar. It's a shame that this person is an elected official.
Care to provide a useful counter argument?
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  #29  
Old Posted Oct 17, 2012, 4:04 AM
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Andrewjm3D this is what MetroMan said.


From MetroMan on UT:

A little more info: There will be nothing but a park on the span over the tracks for the most part. The only occupied building over the tracks would be on the Eastern edge which has room for a conventional pillar supported building. this would link the North and South Convention centre as a continuous building. The South Convention centre (not part of this project) would be rebuilt. The image shown in this project's rendering is just a place holder.

Also confirmed to be a place holder is the entire casino complex, including the hotel towers. Whoever runs the casino would design and build it according to their specifications. The Foster towers are still a work in progress but the twin tower facet design is the direction they're taking.

The build order would be:

1) Casino complex + hotel towers.

2) Retail on the western block of the MTTC.

3) Rail corridor deck from BlueJays Way to a bit east of John. CN Tower and SkyDome would presumably redo their landscaping to connect to the deck at this point.

4) New convention centre with decking on the eastern edge over the rail corridor.

5) Foster twin towers.

6) Centre block redone with retail facing Front St and the new rail corridor park.

7) Centre rail deck and landscaping.

Both Foster towers are mixed use, not one for each condo and office. Offices below, condos on top. Entrances via a corridor linking Front St to the rail corridor park.

Each segment would fund the next one. The casino starts the funding dominoes so none of this happens without it.

I'm getting excited!
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  #30  
Old Posted Oct 17, 2012, 4:24 AM
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Metro Toronto Convention centre in one of the smallest convention centres in North America. Cities across the US are expanding and building new convention centre and attracting major conventions.

Just Recently the US Green Building Council said they will not be returning to Toronto because our convention centre is too small.
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  #31  
Old Posted Oct 17, 2012, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Janbe View Post
Metro Toronto Convention centre in one of the smallest convention centres in North America. Cities across the US are expanding and building new convention centre and attracting major conventions.

Just Recently the US Green Building Council said they will not be returning to Toronto because our convention centre is too small.
So what? A casino isn't required to replace the MTCC with another larger convention centre. Just build a new convention centre.

re your "funding domino":

I don't recall a need for a casino funding domino to kick start the dozen or so brand-new office towers constructed in the downtown core over the past 5 years, or the several brand-new hotel condominiums or the several dozen brand-new condominiums. This is a ridiculous argument. And if the project doesn't go through because of this excuse, really, what's the loss? The downtown is not hurting for any new construction for the next decade. The market value of the land under the MTCC is enough to eventually justify any form of higher density development, a casino argument is irrelevant!
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  #32  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2013, 2:22 PM
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The following post was made in the Oxford Towers thread. I have copied it here so that discussion on the merits or not or a casino may be continued in this thread and not clog the building's thread with discussion about actually whether Toronto needs a casino.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coral Builder View Post
I am enamored by these designs and I wish that this beautiful complex be built. But not at the cost of violence, social degradation, and economic despair that a downtown casino run by a Las Vegas consortium will bring. This is a great proposal, but we need ironclad municipal by-laws to regulate this casino, its hours of operation, its procedures for safeguarding security of patrons and their condition, and a revenue share agreement to fund city initiatives like transit and infrastructure improvements, as well treatment and prevention of gambling addiction. I'm all for development, but lets make sure this is a smart development. Lest we forget, we live in one of the greatest cities in the world, one I would not trade for living in New York, Chicago, LA, HK or any European capitol (ad I have lived in many), so let us continue to make smart development decisions and preserve our way of life, which is far more important than a building.
I'm not sure how you can say for certain that the construction of a casino will lead to the social degradation you describe. Is this not just scaremongering by those opposed to a casino. I've never seen hard facts, studies and concrete evidence that the construction of a casino always leads to a downward spiral of the neighbourhood. I've only heard anecdotal comments to the such.

In my experience of casinos around the world I have never seen anything like this with possible exceptions in Las Vegas. And that is a whole different city unlike anywhere else in the world.

True, MGM are big in Las Vegas, but that doesn't necessarily equate to the social problems experienced there being transported here too. I for one am excited at the thought of a casino in Toronto. And think the Oxford Towers proposal is a great location for one. I would also think that a redevelopment of Ontario Place into a concert venue/casino would work well too.
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  #33  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2013, 6:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coral Builder View Post
I am enamored by these designs and I wish that this beautiful complex be built. But not at the cost of violence, social degradation, and economic despair that a downtown casino run by a Las Vegas consortium will bring.
I was a 20 year resident of Halifax and that wasn't the result when they built their downtown casino. It's been a huge benefit for the city. It helped tourism, employment, kept gambling revenue in Halifax, and was just one more cog in the wheel helping the city attract and retain talent.

The reality is that Toronto and Ontario are already heavily involved in the gambling industry already. It's a part of modern life and the days of puritanical Presbyterian 'Toronto the Good' are long gone... and good riddance.

I'm not a gambler, but it's the height of selfishness (and authoritarian) to argue that just because someone doesn't like something then no one else can have it either. If you don't like casinos, don't visit them.
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  #34  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2013, 5:39 AM
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I think you are kind of missing my argument (thanks for moving this to the right thread though I believe this discussion is integral to the development itself, as one will not happen without the other, as per Oxford's announcement..).

My main point is that there are right ways and a wrong ways to build a casino in a major city, and if you don't think Casino's can be harmful to society I suggest you do a little reading such as the following:

Taken from a recent municipal study in Columbus, Ohio (2005) on the effects of a potential Casino development there (sanctioned by pro-casino municipal government):

Source: http://www.communityresearchpartners...%201-21-10.pdf

"The literature shows that the most clear social impact of casino development is the increase in problem gambling that results. It is estimated that 1.2% of U.S. adults are pathological gamblers at some point in their lifetime and that another 1.5% are problem gamblers. The likelihood of being a pathological or problem gambler is double for a person living within 50 miles of a casino. (This would include most of the GTA if the Casino is located downtown)
2. Using the NORC cost figures, CRP estimates that if a casino were built in Columbus (a city of 797,434 people or <1/6 of the GTA), there may be over 22,000 new problem and pathological gamblers in Franklin County. The additional social cost to address this increase in problem and pathological gambling is estimated to be:
- $28 million annually in ongoing costs, stemming from job loss, unemployment and welfare benefits, poor physical and mental health, and gambling disorder treatments. These may translate into higher demands on the community’s human services systems.
- $223 million in total lifetime costs from one‐time or less frequently occurring events such as bankruptcies, arrests, imprisonment, and legal fees for divorce. These costs will be borne primarily by individuals and families, businesses, and government, but may also impact the human services system.
3. The literature is mixed on whether casinos increase crime in adjacent neighborhoods any more than other facilities that attract large numbers of visitors. There are also mixed research findings on the net positive or negative effect of casinos on the local economy, identifying both pros (more jobs) and cons (jobs are low paid).
4. In states where casino tax revenues have been directed back to the local communities where casinos are located, they have typically been used for economic and physical development projects, rather than for human services.
5. Local government social service departments in Las Vegas and Atlantic City do not appear to have services targeted to address problem gambling. The University of Pittsburgh School of Social Work has a Gambling Counseling Training Institute to train service providers in recognizing and treating problem gambling."

So by this estimate and adding the appropriate multiple to increase the population affected (6.875*22,000 people = 151,000 new problem or addicted gamblers in Toronto) at an estimated total lifetime cost of minimum 1.533 Billion USD and an annual ongoing cost of 158M USD. I say minimum because Canada's social services are more comprehensive (include health and mental health outreach, expanded legal aid, etc..) than in the US.

Let's just make sure we are not dupped like the sweet, innocent Canadians we are into building this great looking development and picking up the pieces later. We can negotiate all the proper safeguards and compensation up front, as well as funding for things like transit and other infrastructure, and if everyone still wants to proceed, so be it.

And just so we are clear, I would like nothing more than to have the whole thing built as it looks in the beautiful renders.
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  #35  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2013, 4:21 AM
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Not

Absolutely not.

Having a casino makes a city unique, right?

Ok, maybe if the house stake reduced the fares on the TRT.
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  #36  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2013, 4:53 AM
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No one needs a casino, but no one needs night clubs or baseball teams either. There's obviously demand for a big casino so lets build one instead of losing all those dollars to areas, cities, countries that do have one.
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  #37  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2013, 3:19 PM
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Well said!
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  #38  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2013, 8:37 PM
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As a future resident (April 1, 2013) of your great city, I find it very insulting that certain people feel the need to prevent everyone from availing of a casino due to the in-ability of a select group to control their habits. It's very funny that when a new booze store opens or club opens you don't hear people clamoring down on making booze illegal. Just my 2 cents worth.
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  #39  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2013, 9:21 PM
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Not sure if this is news yet but the city of Toronto's executive council voted overwhelmingly (9-4) to support an application for a casino.

Important note THIS IS NOT AN APPROVAL OF A CASINO IN TORONTO. The casino still needs to be debated and agreed upon by council as a whole, but it is a positive step.
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  #40  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2013, 7:52 AM
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Does a city need a casino? Does a city need alcohol or night clubs? No, but it helps.
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