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  #61  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2014, 5:47 PM
the urban politician the urban politician is offline
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Originally Posted by Mr Roboto View Post
They are not constructive, in fact the tone was so defeatist and negative one could infer that he was essentially stating any efforts to improve the situation would be a waste of time so why not swap out all the students and replace them.
But that is what I'm saying.

One of the main solutions to Chicago's problems (high crime, poor school performance, demographic stagnation, etc) is for the gangsters to leave. The whole reason Chicago looks bad is because of this particular population of people.

They make the law-abiding, working African American population look bad (and drag them down), and that's the real, real fucking tragedy.
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  #62  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2014, 5:56 PM
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So Mr. Roboto, I'm trying to understand. What exactly do you think is the reason many CPS schools are failing? Is it lack of funding? Disengaged teachers? Crap facilities? I mean, I get that your deeply offended by some of what TUP and LouisVanDerWright said, but they at least stated some reasons (much of which I agree with).
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  #63  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2014, 11:17 PM
LouisVanDerWright LouisVanDerWright is offline
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Originally Posted by Mr Roboto View Post
. Theres no defense for it, you cant defend it, so dont bother with your bullshit comparisons of Deerfield and Harper High.
Comparisons? It's almost as if you've never heard someone use a hypothetical before. This is not about comparing those schools, but rather illustrating that the school itself (i.e. building, teachers, administration, etc) has very little to do with the success of the students and that almost all of it has to do with the parents.

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And wtf, parental expectations have nothing to do with it? What do you know? Are you a parent? I am, I have a child in CPS. Our expectations have everything to do with it.
Your anecdotal position does not further your argument. Also, no your expectations have nothing to do with it, the amount of time and attention your devote to your children does. Maybe you will commit more time to your children if you have high expectations, but the expectations are not why your kids are excelling, the time you are committing is.

Kids don't do do well because your expect them to, they do well because you help them do well. There are plenty of parents who do a lot of "expecting" and very little helping and the end result is almost invariably under performance among their children regardless of economic class.


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Originally Posted by Mr Roboto View Post
Before you respond, let me explain a little more clearly why TUPs idea of swapping asian students with black CPS students and your idea of swapping Deerfield High student with Harper high students is so freaking stupid.
Again, no one is proposing we actually do that, it's a hypothetical. An "if you were to do this" not a "let's do this!"

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2. Even if it were possible, what factors are you holding constant? Do the students have the same parents? Do they bring their current parents to the new neighborhood. Do the Deerfield high school kids actually now have to grow up in Englewood for example? With all the same issues of crime/gangs, poverty, drug use, and police brutality, lack of access to quality food etc etc? Because if so, Id call bullshit on your stupid theory and Deerfield High school students would now perform pretty badly in school as well.
Uhh yes they have the same parents, live in the same place, etc, they just now take a bus to Englewood every day. That's exactly the point. Hell, let's say you moved the school and not the kids. Let's say you got a huge helicopter and flew Deerfield High, teachers and all, to Englewood and vice versa. The test scores and graduation rates at Deerfield High would plummet and Harper would be fantastic because the school has almost nothing to do with the education the children are receiving. The same would hold true if you did this for years and years.

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4. They actually probably wouldnt perform quite as well given less resources anyway. Why? Because research has shown less resources actually can affect performance. Is it as significant an impact as parenting, home influences etc? Clearly not.
And if you look at the average cost per student of CPS versus the suburbs it becomes quite clear that they are spending about the same per student and getting radically different results. The fact is CPS does not have a lack of resources, bad teachers, bad administrators, or any other problem along those lines. CPS has a parent problem.
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  #64  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2014, 1:06 AM
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Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright View Post
Most poor parents don't even have an hour a day to relax and eat dinner, let alone to spend reading to each of their children. Many poor parents couldn't even provide the necessary assistance even if they had the time because they may not even understand the material themselves because they too were deprived of the necessary education. There is no amount of government money or teacher training that is going to change this. There just isn't and they myth that there is a way to fund the problem away is wholly counterproductive.

Ultimately I think the only way to truly rectify this problem is to encourage socio-economic mixing on a generational scale. This is obviously a difficult task since different social and economic groups tend to naturally distance themselves from one another like oil in water, but there are fundamental policy changes that can encourage this. The best one in effect today are the magnet schools which often do offer a child who is particularly bright a better environment (i.e. better peers) in which to grow out of the poverty trap. I also think that gentrification can play a huge role in gradually mixing the impoverished back into society as a whole. Gentrifying neighborhoods offer a way out for any of the students fortunate to resist the economic change long enough to reap the rewards of improving peers moving into the area. What other ideas do you all have to address the problem from this angle?
Think about what you're saying: You're saying the solution is one of policy, and policy is determined by government, ergo the problem of institutionalized racism is one the government has to tackle. TUP's post squarely put the blame on the "communities": "The communities they serve are what is failing."

No.

The government is failing these communities. The government has been failing if not actively persecuting these communities for literally centuries. The government must play a role in helping them succeed, even if it's only by eliminating covertly racist laws (e.g., crack vs. coke penalties, voter suppression, etc.).
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  #65  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2014, 1:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Baronvonellis View Post
I agree with TUP. The whole concept that a "school" is failing is wrong. It's the kids and their families that are failing. They have to take accountability for themselves. And how is a public school a system that is just for the privileged? Anyone can go to a public school.
I went to one of the top ranked PUBLIC high schools in the country but it was because of the quality of the kids and their parents that went there rather than it somehow being an amazing school. The school and the facilities itself were pretty basic. It just happened that the smartest students in the county went there, so it looked really good on all the test scores. If you have a school with students that don't care at all about learning, the scores will be really low.
Public schools are not created equally. Wealth is very unevenly distributed and it's impossible to ignore the role that race and institutionalized racism has played in this process.

Here's a simple, easy-to-understand example: Many of the best high schools in the state are located in the North Shore. These are largely homogenous communities composed of property-owning, upper middle class whites. For generations, these communities have enshrined housing policies that outright prevent the unpropertied classes from living among them (e.g., restricting multi-family residential development), thereby denying them access to the benefits of the vast resources they have amassed. How are people who have since the founding of this country been systematically denied even the opportunity to obtain capital supposed to make their way into those communities? By design, they're not supposed to. And that's the point.
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  #66  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2014, 1:24 AM
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Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post
But that is what I'm saying.

One of the main solutions to Chicago's problems (high crime, poor school performance, demographic stagnation, etc) is for the gangsters to leave. The whole reason Chicago looks bad is because of this particular population of people.

They make the law-abiding, working African American population look bad (and drag them down), and that's the real, real fucking tragedy.
And THIS is exactly what your problem is, and why I think your opinion is so invalid on the subject. Its simply not realistic. All the students are not gangsters, a certain percentage are, but not all. Some have no choice being in gangs either. And to have them all leave doesn't exactly get rid of the problem, it only addresses one of the symptoms. Gangs will continue to exist if the conditions that created them exist. Work on the root causes; address why there are gangs in the first place, address why drug use is so high, address why people are struggling with poverty, etc, and address each issue with creative and maybe some innovative solutions. Or utilize existing solutions that have worked in other cities. Yes it is not easy, but this is why your simplistic take is so frustrating, especially when you represent a portion of the population that has no clue apparently.

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Originally Posted by rgolch View Post
So Mr. Roboto, I'm trying to understand. What exactly do you think is the reason many CPS schools are failing? Is it lack of funding? Disengaged teachers? Crap facilities? I mean, I get that your deeply offended by some of what TUP and LouisVanDerWright said, but they at least stated some reasons (much of which I agree with).
Im not deeply offended (calling out a dumb post makes me deeply offended?). I just think they are lazy, and their analysis is simplistic and actually rather dangerous. Displaying one side of the equation and disregarding the other is disingenuous. Some appear to think otherwise, but I thought this is an easy thing to point out.

I don't have all the answers either clearly, I just want people to understand the situation is incredibly complex. Do you think its as simple as they are making it out to be? I agree buildings themselves are not the cause of poor students performance, who would say that they are, but I could at least make the point in a better and less inflammatory manner. If what you think he said is cool and actually adds to the discussion, then alright for you too.

As far as solutions, actually LVW said something I agree with, mixing the socioeconomic groups, most likely by inclusionary zoning and other types of affordable housing requirements for larger developments, incentives for businesses, providing more after school programs for students to improve productivity. programs like upward bound and project bootstrap could have used more funding. Ceasefire seemed to be rather effective and at least provided people n the communities with employment. Obviously job training, educational opportunities maybe in tech trades etc could be made more accessible and available. Maybe there are solutions no one has thought of, as it will take thinking outside the box, and being NOT lazy.


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Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright View Post
Comparisons? It's almost as if you've never heard someone use a hypothetical before. This is not about comparing those schools, but rather illustrating that the school itself (i.e. building, teachers, administration, etc) has very little to do with the success of the students and that almost all of it has to do with the parents.
Sure basic hypothetical situations work so amazingly great when you are trying to illustrate a point while discussing a complex and varied topic. Like heres mine: we have a problem with the pension reform. I bet if we replaced all our workers with people from the south, who don't care about them damn unions, we could eliminate this problem. Oh, not so illustrative huh. You see, some of us prefer actual data based on actual student performances, and their actual situations . But why use those when you can just come up with some random off the wall scenario that has little to do with what is actually happening.



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Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright View Post
Your anecdotal position does not further your argument.
Yes, it actually does. See below.

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Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright View Post
Also, no your expectations have nothing to do with it, the amount of time and attention your devote to your children does. Maybe you will commit more time to your children if you have high expectations, but the expectations are not why your kids are excelling, the time you are committing is.
Chicken or the egg. Why do you even put in the time to help a child study? Why do you care? Oh that's because you have expectations, you have hopes, dreams maybe? Your nitpicky arguing over semantics is rather silly, actually makes me just think you are arguing for arguments sake or something.

And yes, my anecdotal position shows that I actually may be more knowledgeable about what it means to have expectations over your child than a nonparent, who would not actually have the experience of working with their child after school and teaching them subjects outside of school activities. My perspective is more defined and actually supported by real life experience. And what, pray tell, is your experience? Are you a teacher, do you work with students? All of those are highly relevant as well. But I suppose you enjoy the hypotheticals so much maybe reality is a little difficult for you to swallow.


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Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright View Post
Kids don't do do well because your expect them to, they do well because you help them do well. There are plenty of parents who do a lot of "expecting" and very little helping and the end result is almost invariably under performance among their children regardless of economic class.

Obviously they go together. Again, you put the time in helping them expecting to see results. Ok, if not, maybe you have no idea and are completely clueless, have no idea what they are doing what they are learning and just go about it day to day with no context for their educational experience. Sounds very effective.


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Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright View Post
Again, no one is proposing we actually do that, it's a hypothetical. An "if you were to do this" not a "let's do this!"
See his answer above. And thanks for stating what hypothetical is. I had no idea what that meant. In other words, no shit its hypothetical. So is saying, lets take out every gangster in Chicago and we'd all be safe. Oh really? how is that helping and how is that actually opening anyone's perspective on crime in Chicago become clearer. Or how about this, lets magically make all drugs disappear.

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Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright View Post
Uhh yes they have the same parents, live in the same place, etc, they just now take a bus to Englewood every day. That's exactly the point. Hell, let's say you moved the school and not the kids. Let's say you got a huge helicopter and flew Deerfield High, teachers and all, to Englewood and vice versa. The test scores and graduation rates at Deerfield High would plummet and Harper would be fantastic because the school has almost nothing to do with the education the children are receiving. The same would hold true if you did this for years and years.
Oh, so bus them to Englewood. Magically replace all of them. Wow, what incredible insight this provides. You mean the actual building itself wasn't holding them back? You mean the rampant crime, low parent expectations, low involvement, drugs, police treatment of young men especially, and all the other negative impacts on them might actually be a major cause of poor performance? I thought it was because the walls in the building told them to stop studying!


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Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright View Post
And if you look at the average cost per student of CPS versus the suburbs it becomes quite clear that they are spending about the same per student and getting radically different results. The fact is CPS does not have a lack of resources, bad teachers, bad administrators, or any other problem along those lines. CPS has a parent problem.
No. Shit. But you need to keep in mind this funding situation has certainly not always been the case. And resources do have some impact. For example, class size has a pretty strong relationship with student performance. Been researched and documented. Arts programs, and others extra activities has some impact. Been documented as well. Tutoring clearly does. Besides, kids in Englewood probably need MORE resources than Deerfield, because they are more adversely impacted by negative outside forces in their day to day lives.

So anyway, I already agreed that school resources alone are not the key, and that parenting is clearly more important. But continue to ignore everything else I write, and continue to say the same thing over and over instead of addressing that I already said the exact same thing you did - but with caveats that you ignore. The caveats are there because, um, well, the situation is COMPLEX. My only point is that you and TUP need to stop being lazy on the topic, get a little less hypothetical, and get back into reality maybe.


btw, sorry to derail the topic on Chicago's entertainment, arts etc, but I actually think this is a relevant topic since its on that show.
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  #67  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2014, 2:24 AM
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Mr Roboto, I think we all agree with you that the problem is incredibly complex, and involves numerous moving parts. But your living in a fantasy world if you think you can sell anyone on the idea of giving more resources to poor performing CPS schools over high performing city and suburban schools. If anything, funding will get cut even more. Given that our city and state are on the verge of fiscal catastrophe, people are weary of throwing money at untested theories in failing schools.
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  #68  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2014, 2:33 AM
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Originally Posted by rgolch View Post
Mr Roboto, I think we all agree with you that the problem is incredibly complex, and involves numerous moving parts. But your living in a fantasy world if you think you can sell anyone on the idea of giving more resources to poor performing CPS schools over high performing city and suburban schools. If anything, funding will get cut even more. Given that our city and state are on the verge of fiscal catastrophe, people are weary of throwing money at untested theories in failing schools.
Hmm, ok. I dont think they agree its complex, they haven't demonstrated as much seeing as how they refused to acknowledge it but had ample opportunity through numerous posts, but I guess at least you do.

But throwing money? I didn't realize we ever did throw money at the schools. And certainly if we did, it wasn't a whole lot (relatively) at any time. I thought we merely funded them, as we do other public resources and institutions.

Well seeing as how we are on the verge of fiscal catastrophe, we might as well burn half the city down, the poor black and Hispanic parts specifically. Now that's my constructive hypothetical scenario.
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  #69  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2014, 2:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Ch.G, Ch.G View Post
Think about what you're saying: You're saying the solution is one of policy, and policy is determined by government, ergo the problem of institutionalized racism is one the government has to tackle. TUP's post squarely put the blame on the "communities": "The communities they serve are what is failing."

No.

The government is failing these communities. The government has been failing if not actively persecuting these communities for literally centuries. The government must play a role in helping them succeed, even if it's only by eliminating covertly racist laws (e.g., crack vs. coke penalties, voter suppression, etc.).
No people like those in Englewood are all lazy - they are poor because they are lazy, they are uneducated because they are lazy, and they are criminals because they are lazy. They need no help to improve their situation because that would be throwing money away. Lets instead invest our tax money via TIF for downtown buildings and shiny new arenas. Or how about targeted tax breaks to lure companies.

I get a little weary of what I read on here sometimes, especially from people who clearly have no interest in improving social issues yet feel the need to comment negatively about the people who are in them.
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  #70  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2014, 2:53 AM
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I agree and stand with TUP on what he said about Chicago schools and swapping a group of people that has a strong family support which quite clearly the black community at least in the inter city has shown over multi decades that its not their strong point. The answer I don't know but what TUP said rings true but alas we cannot do these mind experiments in real time but we should at accept the principle or at least respect it without name calling here. There are no real racists here lets make that clear. Most all of us are on the progressive side of most all issues, we speak to our own choir but we should not condemn those among us as not being pure enough to be included in our broad tent if they don't have the exact same thought process on every single issue some hold so dear that even to contemplate an issue counter to your own is blasphemous. I hate that downward discourse, not on just that but most issues open to reasonable debate on these intertubes.
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  #71  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2014, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by ch.g, ch.g View Post
the government is failing these communities. The government has been failing if not actively persecuting these communities for literally centuries. The government must play a role in helping them succeed, even if it's only by eliminating covertly racist laws (e.g., crack vs. Coke penalties, voter suppression, etc.).
Wrong
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  #72  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2014, 12:46 PM
the urban politician the urban politician is offline
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Originally Posted by Mr Roboto View Post
I get a little weary of what I read on here sometimes, especially from people who clearly have no interest in improving social issues yet feel the need to comment negatively about the people who are in them.
You are correct.

I have little interest in fixing poverty in Chicago.

I want Chicago to be where New York and other cities are now--gentrify the poverty out. I want it to be somebody else's problem.

That's just how I feel, and I know I'm not alone. Yes, I guess that may define me as a racist (among some) but I don't care.
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  #73  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2014, 1:32 PM
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^^^ I don't quite agree with TUP here. While I would also prefer that the poverty be pushed out of the urban core if we have to have poverty, I would much rather find a way to permanently address the problem than just push it off to the side. Will there always be poor people: yes. Do we have to have an ongoing system of institutionalized poverty: no.

The fact is institutionalized poverty is BAD for our economy. Why? Because huge quantities of naturally occurring human capital is being wasted running massive drug gangs instead of being educated properly and going on to found a new tech start up or something. Let's say one in ten people is naturally very smart and a natural leader, I would prefer that every single one of those people be put to productive use by society and THAT is my problem with poverty. It is a total waste to have natural intelligence squandered because of drugs, gangs, or inept parenting.

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Originally Posted by Mr Roboto View Post
Chicken or the egg. Why do you even put in the time to help a child study? Why do you care? Oh that's because you have expectations, you have hopes, dreams maybe? Your nitpicky arguing over semantics is rather silly, actually makes me just think you are arguing for arguments sake or something.
I'm getting pretty bored with this conversation but wanted to say this: It's definitely not semantics. As the moral crusader of this thread you of all people should realize that it's not just a matter of "if only those minorities expected more of their children, then they'd succeed!". It's ALL about getting parents to put for the extra effort.

Can high expectations motivate parents to put forth that effort? Sure, but don't you think it is just a little insensitive to suggest that high expectations is all it takes to make that effort possible? There are surely thousands upon thousands of impoverished parents who do have high expectations for their children, but simply are unable to put forth the time for any number of reasons necessary to give their kids that edge. So what you call semantics I call wrong. I call it wrong because it's simply not true.

Now maybe you meant to get across the same point as I am trying to make and we are just trying to say the same thing in different words, but I really don't think expectations is the right word to be using.
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  #74  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2014, 2:24 PM
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New topic. I dont think it goes in transportation because its tourism related.




http://www.suntimes.com/news/2657724...-heliport.html

Zoning Committee approves Bridgeport heliport

BY FRAN SPIELMAN City Hall Reporter View Gallery Updated: April 1, 2014 10:01PM



A tour company’s $12.5 million plan to build a heliport on the south branch of the Chicago River was cleared for takeoff Tuesday, but not before an influential alderman waved the red flag about helicopter safety.

..


The plan calls for construction of 14 launching pads, a 17,500-square-foot hangar, terminal with rooftop observation deck, water taxi dock and aircraft fueling station.

...

Heffernan once again insisted that his helicopter tours would have “zero impact” on noise in a community that’s plenty loud already because of CTA buses, the Orange Line and traffic on the Stevenson and Dan Ryan expressways.

He promised to use what he called “the quietest helicopter on the market,” build sound barrier walls and follow a flight path toward Lake Michigan high above the Stevenson.

..

Heffernan replied, “$119 for an 18-minute tour. Put that in perspective. New York for eleven minutes, it’s $185. Las Vegas for about eleven minutes, it’s $110. So, our permanent cost…will be the best in the country. The way we’re able to achieve that is by owning the land, owning the facility and owning the helicopters themselves. Trimming a lot of that out of the cost should you be operating out of an airport allows us to offer the lowest price point possible.”

Heffernan said his goal is to draw tourists to Bridgeport and keep them there for a 90-minute "experience" that includes local restaurants, shops and art galleries.

“When they leave, the idea is that their experience was not, `I went on a helicopter ride.’ It’s, `I had dinner. I ate lunch at this great place. I hung out on the riverfront. I got to take a riverboat ride. And we went on a helicopter tour,' " Heffernan said.

...
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  #75  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2014, 3:17 PM
Mr Roboto Mr Roboto is offline
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Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post
You are correct.

I have little interest in fixing poverty in Chicago.

I want Chicago to be where New York and other cities are now--gentrify the poverty out. I want it to be somebody else's problem.

That's just how I feel, and I know I'm not alone. Yes, I guess that may define me as a racist (among some) but I don't care.
Well, it comes out, which is exactly as I suspected and why I feel the need to call you out when you comment on these types of issues. You seem to have this type of fixation with clearly defining people by socioeconomic status, and then labeling them by whatever simple means you deem appropriate with total disregard for actually understanding the reasons behind it. I suppose you'd prefer permanent systems of keeping people in poverty - serfdom, or indentured servants and slavery.

And its not somebody elses problem, its yours, its mine, its all of our problem collectively. We all pay taxes, we all vote (from time to time), we all use city services, infrastructure etc, we also all pay for public schools, we all pay for jails to be built and to house inmates, therefore we all clearly have a vested interest.

As far as being a racist, who knows. We all have a little bit of it in us, I know I do. Maybe you just feel the need to embrace it and express it rather than challenge your already lazy assumptions and actually look into all the various aspects that caused the type of poverty and violence associated with many of the struggling black, and some hispanic, city neighborhoods. In my honest opinion I find that your type of negative, callous and un-productive mentality should have no business in city policies; this city, or really any kind of city.

Its indefensible, and I shudder to think that people on this board actually agree with you regarding this. Why? Besides the basic human aspects, see below, its purely economics, something you should actually appreciate. We should absolutely be looking to constantly improve not just this aspect of poverty and crime in our society, but really all of society as a whole.


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Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright View Post
^^^ I don't quite agree with TUP here. While I would also prefer that the poverty be pushed out of the urban core if we have to have poverty, I would much rather find a way to permanently address the problem than just push it off to the side. Will there always be poor people: yes. Do we have to have an ongoing system of institutionalized poverty: no.

The fact is institutionalized poverty is BAD for our economy. Why? Because huge quantities of naturally occurring human capital is being wasted running massive drug gangs instead of being educated properly and going on to found a new tech start up or something. Let's say one in ten people is naturally very smart and a natural leader, I would prefer that every single one of those people be put to productive use by society and THAT is my problem with poverty. It is a total waste to have natural intelligence squandered because of drugs, gangs, or inept parenting.

At least you get it. I completely agree. Any substantial group of otherwise healthy and young but essentially unproductive people is a huge drain on our society, and thats precisely why Im of the opinion that we should, as a community and city, and really as a nation, continually struggle to find ways to improve the conditions that made those people unproductive. It really doesnt need to have anything to do with race, racism, or any other ism. It can be a cold objective view that purely focuses on the economic benefits for ALL of us.

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Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright View Post
I'm getting pretty bored with this conversation
Agreed.

Ill just explain a little more where I am coming from with this. Basically - expectations are the essential driving force behind the effort you put in life.

You set goals, some level of expectation, whether consciously or subconsciously. For example, you expect to pass a test at school or you set a goal to pass that test, you therefore do what is required to pass that test, by studying and working your ass off, and then take the test, and again, expect to pass it when you get the results. Sure, expectations alone are little more than wishful thinking, but again, the initial expectation is the spark that creates the drive to succeed in the first place. If you have low expectations, that is exactly what you will achieve.

I believe many of those who are part of the cycle of poverty in this country actually have much lower expectations of themselves, as does society, which makes them all the less likely to succeed. If you dont have that initial standard set for yourself, where does the drive to succeed come from? If instead you expect to one day get shot, or one day be thrown in jail, to be harassed by police, to find no benefits to education and school, then you have much less chance for success. Tying it back to the Chicagoland show, you can clearly see a kid who has low to no expectations for himself that Dozier is trying to help, and he is useless.

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Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright View Post
As the moral crusader of this thread
Yeah well, apparently somebody should do it. I dont like to do it, but I find the blunt negative language regarding people who find themselves to be struggling through no complete fault of their own to be troubling, actually pretty inhumane. Some of us seem to live in a bubble and are rarely confronted about our generalizations and simplistic views.

Anyways...
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  #76  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2014, 6:20 PM
the urban politician the urban politician is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Roboto View Post
Well, it comes out, which is exactly as I suspected and why I feel the need to call you out when you comment on these types of issues. You seem to have this type of fixation with clearly defining people by socioeconomic status, and then labeling them by whatever simple means you deem appropriate with total disregard for actually understanding the reasons behind it. I suppose you'd prefer permanent systems of keeping people in poverty - serfdom, or indentured servants and slavery.
I don't have an interest in fixing poverty in America. That's true.

But more importantly to me, I don't understand why poverty needs to be Chicago's job to fix. Here we are praising places like New York or San Francisco but it's not like those places fixed poverty, they just pushed it out of the way; yet black hip hop artists are singing New York City's praises all the time.

The City of Chicago should be no more morally obligated to fix poverty than Denver, CO or Beverly Hills, CA or Sioux Falls, SD, or Columbia, MO etc etc. It is not a problem that a city can fix--it is a byproduct of Capitalism.
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  #77  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2014, 10:16 PM
LouisVanDerWright LouisVanDerWright is offline
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^^^ I don't think you can say the kind of institutionalized poverty that Chicago has is "a byproduct of capitalism" or the problem would be equaled in every other capitalist city. Chicago's problem is much more heavily tied to the racial history of the United States than it is to capitalism. You could say the poverty in the immigrant communities in Chicago is just capitalism, but the african american population has undoubtedly been marginalized and abused for a very long time simply because of race and the fact is that it is very very hard to break that ingrained problem.

I think that it does no one any good to allow the problem to fester when we can make simple changes that can gradually, over time, at least give these people an equal shot at success. I'm strictly against handouts, etc., but basic reforms like ending the war on drugs and doing our best to allow the brightest students to get out through things like magnet schools.
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  #78  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2014, 2:16 AM
the urban politician the urban politician is offline
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^. But these are national issues. Racism and the marginalization of black people has been a problem throughout America, not just Chicago. How is one city going to solve a national problem?
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  #79  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2014, 2:51 AM
LouisVanDerWright LouisVanDerWright is offline
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The Federal government's incompetitance doesn't mean the local governemnt can't and shouldn't attempt to address these issues if they have the ideas and political will to do it. In fact, I think local government should take more aggressive stances on these things as they have started to do with other urban topics like TOD, city infrastructure, or even Bike Lanes/road diets/pedestrian priority.
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  #80  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2014, 3:55 PM
the urban politician the urban politician is offline
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^ Local Govt should only fix problems that they have the resources & ability to fix. Yes, of course race based discrimination at every level should be illegal. But the drug war, gun laws, federal laws on lending practices, deindustrialization offshoring of jobs, etc etc tend to be handled mostly at the Federal level. Chicago within its budget can only redistribute things so much without discouraging further growth.
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