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  #21  
Old Posted Mar 9, 2014, 7:59 PM
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
I watched the Rob Ford interview on Jimmy Kimmel courtesy of youtube. Of course he was going to get ribbed, but Toronto actually came out looking quite good. He shamelessly plugged the city, professed his love for the city, Kimmel echoed those sentiments, and the crowd applauded. When's the last time that happened on US television in front of millions of viewers?

I don't buy the argument that he's hurt Toronto's image, because people know better. If anything this has shattered people's perceptions that we're some stereotypically boring place where nothing happens. Toronto has moved past the point where things like this damage the city. Ironically, it seems to be doing the opposite.
I honestly don't believe that's how stereotypes work. People form stereotypes based on a lack of information, so stereotypes will always exist except for people who have a decidedly rational thought process or have a greater level of knowledge of the city. There's no level that a city can reach where it becomes immune to this. There are even stereotypes of NYC and Paris. The people who already knew enough about it to not have a stereotypical image may not be influenced by the Ford situation, but for the ones who did harbour stereotypes, this would not have helped.

Most people, in the US at least, don't seem to have any image of Toronto at all and only have an image of Canada. That image has traditionally been one of straight-laced, polite, sensible, simpletons. Ford has managed to shatter that image and replace it with one of dense, loud, bumbling, simpletons. Try as I might, I just don't see that as an improvement. The old image may not have been ideal, but this one is worse.

As for the people who were already educated about Toronto, the Ford situation still provided some new information. First, that a large enough proportion of residents voted for him to allow him to get elected, and second, even after all the scandals, that Ford has still managed to maintain his position due to either a dysfunctional political process, continuing support, or both. This doesn't provide a positive image for either the city's electorate or the functionality of its municipal government.

Really, the idea that Ford has actually helped or improved... anything - reputation or otherwise - just seems like wishful thinking. It may not be all bad, but the bad is certainly equal to or greater than the good.
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  #22  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2014, 2:06 AM
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I honestly don't believe that's how stereotypes work. People form stereotypes based on a lack of information, so stereotypes will always exist except for people who have a decidedly rational thought process......
On the contrary, if i observe people behaving a certain way 4 out of 5 times and don't draw any conclusions from that behavior then i am not learning from my experience which is irrational. Like them or not, stereotypes are borne of experience and they exist because they are generally true.

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Most people, in the US at least, don't seem to have any image of Toronto at all and only have an image of Canada.
I agree with you that most people are only vaguely aware of Toronto as a big Canadian city where the CN Tower is but Rob Ford's antics have put Toronto on the map which I don't see as a bad thing. Ford got people got people talking about Toronto whereas before they gave it little or no thought.
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  #23  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2015, 6:14 PM
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I was in Toronto for work a few weeks ago...

This wasn't my first trip to Toronto, but did have a lot more free time than I did in the past to explore. With all the development news, I had very high expectations. Unfortunately, I left disappointed! It's a strange town with highrises rising from random neighborhoods all throughout the downtown core. It makes sense if it's a along a transit line, but these were just arterial roads that were not very walkable. Many of the new buildings in the core have sterile pedestrian realms and boring retail. Think drycleaners, banks, crappy variety stores, etc...

The thing that really got me disappointed was the whole Beer Store/LCBO government controlled facilities for dispensing alcohol. They were impossible to find without the help of Google and never open when I needed something anyway. It made the after parties in the hotel room very dull.

The highlight was riding the TTC. What a efficient and well designed system! I also enjoyed the different cultures represented in the city. The diversity of people of different backgrounds and incomes all getting along.

I'm expecting to be under siege by a horde of Toronto posters as soon as I hit Submit Reply, but just calling it as I see it.
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  #24  
Old Posted Jan 15, 2015, 8:51 AM
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Every arterial road in the core is extremely walkable so I'm struggling to figure out exactly where you were. City Place is the only new development that fits that description. It's an outlier and faced a heap of criticism. The Beer Store/LCBO is a concept out of the East Bloc so I agree with you there.

At the end of the day, those days when locals looked to outsiders to validate their city are thankfully long gone. We know it's a great city and stacks up well to every other. Toronto ticks off more of my boxes than any other city and why I moved here. Only New York and Los Angeles receive more immigrants each year; people are voting with their feet.

London has recently joined that top group but wouldn't be any where close if it wasn't for free movement of people within the EU. Their numbers get massively bumped by eastern Europeans hopping on a train/plain to London. You can bet your bottom dollar if Canada had a similar agreement with the other 40+ countries in America, Toronto would get swamped.
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  #25  
Old Posted Jan 15, 2015, 10:32 AM
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Every arterial road in the core is extremely walkable so I'm struggling to figure out exactly where you were.
What gives you the impression that I was just downtown? The city proper has many suburban style arterial roads. I was specially referencing my amazement that 30 storey tower would rise at random locations throughout the city, on arterials in North York and Scarborough. Normally, you would expect and encourage this development along stops on a metro line, but at best these were serviced by bus.. For the record, I was in North York, Scarborough, and on Yonge Street near Dundas Square.

I also near Yonge and Wessley (sp?). It was a community of high rise apartment complexesprobably built in the 60s or 70s. They were well maintained, but very much towers in the park, where consideration for cars came first, followed by pedestrian needs. It was walkable but had the same design characteristics of a housing project here in the north eastern United States. It was odd.

In New York and other cities along the east coast, there is a trend of gutting the ground floors of buildings built in the era of when the car reigned supreme and replacing them with a more pedestrian friendly environments, involving retail (a small grocery store) or other uses. The apartment neighborhood I was in seemed like they haven't been updated since the 60s since they were first built. But hey, at least the lawn was well manicured and the buildings maintained.

The retail at the base of the new skyscrapers going up downtown was just lame. Low ceilings, poor street frontage, and small areas usually no bigger to support a dry cleaners or subway restaraunt. So much missed potential.

I know you guys think the city is the greatest and you think most Americans never heard of it, but really, it's not that great and next time I'll be heading to Montreal on personal travel as I've heard great things and no silly liquor laws. I can't recommend Toronto to anyone other than transit enthusiasts. I know dry counties in the Deep South with more liberal liquor laws than the forth largest city in North America. Which reminds me, your bars close too early, too!!
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  #26  
Old Posted Jan 15, 2015, 3:53 PM
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Originally Posted by CIA View Post
What gives you the impression that I was just downtown?
Read what you wrote. You specifically referenced the downtown core:

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It's a strange town with highrises rising from random neighborhoods all throughout the downtown core. It makes sense if it's a along a transit line, but these were just arterial roads that were not very walkable. Many of the new buildings in the core have sterile pedestrian realms and boring retail. Think drycleaners, banks, crappy variety stores, etc... - CIA
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The city proper has many suburban style arterial roads. I was specially referencing my amazement that 30 storey tower would rise at random locations throughout the city, on arterials in North York and Scarborough. Normally, you would expect and encourage this development along stops on a metro line, but at best these were serviced by bus.. For the record, I was in North York, Scarborough, and on Yonge Street near Dundas Square.
Toronto has followed a very different urban development than you'd find in the United States. Right up till the 1980s high rises seemed to pop up all over metro with little rhyme of reason to their placement. It still looks rather odd but they're providing the needed density to facilitate mass transit and established clusters on which to build larger 'nodes'.

The periphery has barely begun its intensification as it only stopped sprawling out about a decade ago. Intensification is mostly concentrated in the core and it will take decades before it makes a significant impact on the periphery. Eventually, metro will end up with 20-30 nodes. I (as do urban planners) consider it a huge advantage over US metros in the drive towards reducing congestion, travel times, and pollution.

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I also near Yonge and Wessley (sp?). It was a community of high rise apartment complexesprobably built in the 60s or 70s. They were well maintained, but very much towers in the park, where consideration for cars came first, followed by pedestrian needs. It was walkable but had the same design characteristics of a housing project here in the north eastern United States. It was odd.
I live near there and those towers in the park are very much a product of their time. Toronto grew much faster in the 70s and 80s than most places in the US and why the city has so many of them. We stopped building those decades ago.

Despite the construction boom, the downtown core has quite a big footprint. We'll need another 200+ towers before it starts to fill in. The city only started building tall north of Queen 7 years ago so an expectation that it look built out from one end to the other is unrealistic.

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In New York and other cities along the east coast, there is a trend of gutting the ground floors of buildings built in the era of when the car reigned supreme and replacing them with a more pedestrian friendly environments, involving retail (a small grocery store) or other uses. The apartment neighborhood I was in seemed like they haven't been updated since the 60s since they were first built. But hey, at least the lawn was well manicured and the buildings maintained.
That makes a lot of sense for NYC. We do see a few buildings on main strips like the Mink Mile re-configure their ground floors, but Toronto won't see that sort of thing on a grand scale till the core fills in first.

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The retail at the base of the new skyscrapers going up downtown was just lame. Low ceilings, poor street frontage, and small areas usually no bigger to support a dry cleaners or subway restaraunt. So much missed potential.
Like what for instance? There are some that have been a disappointment in that regard, but the vast majority of them have huge podiums for retail.

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I know you guys think the city is the greatest and you think most Americans never heard of it, but really, it's not that great and next time I'll be heading to Montreal on personal travel as I've heard great things and no silly liquor laws. I can't recommend Toronto to anyone other than transit enthusiasts. I know dry counties in the Deep South with more liberal liquor laws than the forth largest city in North America. Which reminds me, your bars close too early, too!!
Lousy attempt to depict your conclusions as gospel and people here as provincial types that have never been anywhere. I'm from London, UK have lived in Montreal and been to New York many times. I considered all 4 to lay down roots in. I chose Toronto and don't regret my decision one little bit. I'm hardly alone. A good 53% of people in Toronto were born outside Canada so it's one of the most cosmopolitan places on earth.

We don't all choose what's best based on the proliferation of easy access liquor. That sounds more like something a frat boy from Starkville, Mississippi might say.
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Last edited by isaidso; Jan 15, 2015 at 4:33 PM.
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  #27  
Old Posted Jan 15, 2015, 4:59 PM
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So I did reference the downtown core. My bad.

As for missing potential. You're well traveled, use your imagination.

On your last point. You're looking through the lens of whether Toronto is a good place to live, which it is. I'm looking through the lens of whether it's a good place to vacation. Not so much in my opinion. I'm not saying being a tourist town like Orlando is desirable, but better efforts could be made to be attractive to visitors. Again, just my opinion from the visit.

The mix of cultures is what I liked most about Toronto. The liquor laws and conservatism sounding this area, the least. It was very suprising as Toronto is a very progressive city except in this one area. And yes, there are industries where folks drink excessively on a normal day (pharmasitical sales has a reputation for being wild. American urban planners too! You can tell from where they decide to hold their professional conventions). If extending a work trip to incorporate a little vacation, and with a predisposition due to Irish heritage, you damn right I could drink a frat boy from anywhere under the table, and be proud of it.

I didn't post in the Toronto forum with the intent to troll. It's just that I had an expectation heading into the city as a tourist and left feeling underwhelmed. Based on all the construction threads, I was really excited and expecting something more.

Last edited by CIA; Jan 15, 2015 at 5:55 PM.
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  #28  
Old Posted Jan 15, 2015, 5:58 PM
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But really, the Beer Store / LCBO thing isn't the fault of the City. It's a Provincial thing.

But yeah, I can see how such stuff can put a damper on tourist who just want to party & drink.

Being a person who doesn't care for such things, I travel to explore and eat and have no such problems here or anywhere else for that matter.
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  #29  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2015, 3:02 PM
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But really, the Beer Store / LCBO thing isn't the fault of the City. It's a Provincial thing.

But yeah, I can see how such stuff can put a damper on tourist who just want to party & drink.

Being a person who doesn't care for such things, I travel to explore and eat and have no such problems here or anywhere else for that matter.
Not sure blaming the province really works though. Toronto is the biggest city in the province by far and close to half the members in the legislature are from Toronto and its suburbs. Toronto is also the capital of the province and all of its public servants and policy-makers reside there.

It's not really true that it's people in Listowel and Timmins who are holding Ontario back from having more liberal liquor laws.

For certain things anyway (and booze is a prime example) there is a prudent, conservative streak that remains strong even in the heart of bustling, diverse, cosmopolitan Toronto.
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  #30  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2015, 6:00 PM
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So I did reference the downtown core. My bad.

As for missing potential. You're well traveled, use your imagination.

On your last point. You're looking through the lens of whether Toronto is a good place to live, which it is. I'm looking through the lens of whether it's a good place to vacation. Not so much in my opinion. I'm not saying being a tourist town like Orlando is desirable, but better efforts could be made to be attractive to visitors. Again, just my opinion from the visit.

The mix of cultures is what I liked most about Toronto. The liquor laws and conservatism sounding this area, the least. It was very suprising as Toronto is a very progressive city except in this one area. And yes, there are industries where folks drink excessively on a normal day (pharmasitical sales has a reputation for being wild. American urban planners too! You can tell from where they decide to hold their professional conventions). If extending a work trip to incorporate a little vacation, and with a predisposition due to Irish heritage, you damn right I could drink a frat boy from anywhere under the table, and be proud of it.

I didn't post in the Toronto forum with the intent to troll. It's just that I had an expectation heading into the city as a tourist and left feeling underwhelmed. Based on all the construction threads, I was really excited and expecting something more.
I would agree, Toronto's not necessarily a tourist mecca IMO. It's a great place to live and invest, but not necessarily visit as a tourist unless it's part of a multi-destination trip of Canada.

It is the best place to experience what Canadian multiculturalism is all about. A true city of the world.

There are changes in the pipeline with liquor laws but don't hold your breath for anything drastic
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  #31  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2015, 5:30 PM
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For the record, I was in North York, Scarborough, and on Yonge Street near Dundas Square.

I also near Yonge and Wessley (sp?).
Just curious... what other parts of downtown did you explore? It sounds like you were only on Yonge between Wellesley and Dundas.
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  #32  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2015, 10:46 PM
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I spent a lot of time on Yonge. Yorkville (I won't share the nickname I had for this place except to say it wasn't a positive), down to the Air Canada Center. I also rode the streetcar on Gerrard street and walked around at a few of the stops outside downtown. I was also on Yonge in North York.

I got a chuckle out of the underground PATH system. PATH is also the name of a subway system servicing NYC and nearby communities west of the Hudson River, so I was curious.

The days I were they were particularly chilly and didn't explore or walk as much as I usually do when exploring a city.
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  #33  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2015, 11:24 PM
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Meh, Toronto is deep multifaceted city, definitely takes some time, it grows on you. On the flip side some more touristy cities get old once the intial fascination wears off. Toronto doesn't seem to put much effort into wowing tourists, for good or for bad. At the same time that may be better than these facades some places try to present.

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  #34  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2015, 12:07 AM
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I mostly agree. It's just not a town I'll probably spend New Year's Eve again. If anyone is curious, check some of the travel reviews of Toronto.
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  #35  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2015, 2:44 AM
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I would agree, Toronto's not necessarily a tourist mecca IMO. It's a great place to live and invest, but not necessarily visit as a tourist unless it's part of a multi-destination trip of Canada.

And yet many Torontonians (or at least many forumers from there) seem to think that Toronto is totally, already there as a tourist mecca.

They do have pretty good numbers as far as overnight stays go, but there is always a debate with non-Torontonians as to how many of those are business travellers (the city is a huge economic powerhouse) and visiting friends and relatives (as a huge migratory hub), as opposed to how many people are visiting the city for other reasons.
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  #36  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2015, 4:16 AM
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I spent a lot of time on Yonge. Yorkville (I won't share the nickname I had for this place except to say it wasn't a positive), down to the Air Canada Center. I also rode the streetcar on Gerrard street and walked around at a few of the stops outside downtown. I was also on Yonge in North York.

I got a chuckle out of the underground PATH system. PATH is also the name of a subway system servicing NYC and nearby communities west of the Hudson River, so I was curious.

The days I were they were particularly chilly and didn't explore or walk as much as I usually do when exploring a city.
It sounds like you missed a lot of Toronto's most interesting areas such as the Distillery District, Kensington Market, Entertainment District, Queen West and China Town. To your credit, it's difficult to really appreciate what those neighbourhoods have to offer in the dead of winter when everyone stays indoors, but I'd strongly recommend visiting again the spring or summer before passing judgement on the city.

I agree that it's difficult imagine anyone outside of Canada putting Toronto on their list of cities to visit purely for the sake of tourism (as there aren't too many things about Toronto that are notably unique), but if someone happens to be here for whatever reason, there are loads of things to do.
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  #37  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2015, 5:33 PM
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Thanks for the tips Ramako. Kensington Market sounds like it would be a cool place. I did a little googleing and it does look like a neat little area of the city. I would have never found that on my own. I've been to Toronto several times before, mainly on in and out business trips. I always thought Yonge was the main drag. From what I'm hearing, that's not really the case. I consider myself an urbanist, so I did try and venture out as much as possible and explore other areas of the city to experience how they feel. Not trying to hijack the thread to discuss my own personal travel experience. Just wanted to add another perspective to the conversation.

Toronto may be an amazing city for residents, but it could use a tad of work making it more inviting to visitors. It's only an hour and a half, $250 round trip from NYC, and just received that positive review in the New York Times. A lot of potential, but I can't honestly recommend it to folks looking to escape for the weekend, at least not to the degenerate alcoholics I work with.
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  #38  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2015, 6:03 PM
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Thanks for the tips Ramako. Kensington Market sounds like it would be a cool place. I did a little googleing and it does look like a neat little area of the city. I would have never found that on my own. I've been to Toronto several times before, mainly on in and out business trips. I always thought Yonge was the main drag. From what I'm hearing, that's not really the case. I consider myself an urbanist, so I did try and venture out as much as possible and explore other areas of the city to experience how they feel. Not trying to hijack the thread to discuss my own personal travel experience. Just wanted to add another perspective to the conversation.

Toronto may be an amazing city for residents, but it could use a tad of work making it more inviting to visitors. It's only an hour and a half, $250 round trip from NYC, and just received that positive review in the New York Times. A lot of potential, but I can't honestly recommend it to folks looking to escape for the weekend, at least not to the degenerate alcoholics I work with.
A word of caution: be careful not to dwell too much on the liquor laws (as archaic as they might be - I totally agree) as for some reason you'll get quickly labelled as an obsessed alcoholic on there and this will taint your other observations and views in the eyes of some, for some reason.
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  #39  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2015, 8:04 PM
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  #40  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2015, 12:51 PM
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They do have pretty good numbers as far as overnight stays go, but there is always a debate with non-Torontonians as to how many of those are business travellers (the city is a huge economic powerhouse) and visiting friends and relatives (as a huge migratory hub), as opposed to how many people are visiting the city for other reasons.
The debate is really just with you. And mostly because your anecdotal evidence is apparently the go to reference for stats Canada.

I imagine his review of the city has given you enough fapping material to get you through this long winter.
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