HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForumSkyscraper Posters
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions

Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #141  
Old Posted May 6, 2017, 8:47 AM
yuriandrade's Avatar
yuriandrade yuriandrade is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 438
Quote:
Originally Posted by Docere View Post
Right now France has the 3rd largest Jewish population in the world and Canada the 4th. If (God forbid) Marine Le Pen prevails (which is thankfully unlikely) I expect there to be a major exodus of the Jewish community in France.
It seems to me they will probably feel safer as Islamists will have a much harder time to operate in the country.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #142  
Old Posted May 6, 2017, 10:19 AM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is online now
Monsieur Sainte-Nitouche
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Vieux Canada
Posts: 32,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by yuriandrade View Post
It seems to me they will probably feel safer as Islamists will have a much harder time to operate in the country.
It is very much a double edged sword as key people in the Front national have spouted Holocaust denial rhetoric.
__________________
SSP Canada's Most Interesting Man
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #143  
Old Posted May 6, 2017, 6:10 PM
Docere Docere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,937
Quote:
Originally Posted by yuriandrade View Post
It seems to me they will probably feel safer as Islamists will have a much harder time to operate in the country.
The European extreme right is anti-Semitic no matter how much they now try to present themselves as friends of the Jews.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #144  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2017, 12:57 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 15,565
Article on newly developing Orthodox enclaves in the NYC metro, highlighting the Greenville neighborhood in Jersey City.

As Brooklyn and traditional Orthodox centers are extremely expensive and overcrowded, satellite communities are springing up, sometimes leading to tensions between long-time locals and newcomers:

Uneasy Welcome as Ultra-Orthodox Jews Extend Beyond New York
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/02/n...ew-jersey.html

These tensions will increase in the coming years. Orthodox obviously have high birthrates, and while Brooklyn's Orthodox population continues robust growth, an increasing share of growth will be in cheaper satellite communities.

There are now 30,000 kids enrolled in shuls in Lakewood, NJ. Possibly more than anywhere outside of Brooklyn (100,000 in shuls) and Israel. Also 25,000 enrolled in Ramapo-area shuls (Rockland County, NY, around Monsey).
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #145  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2017, 1:34 PM
Centropolis's Avatar
Centropolis Centropolis is offline
crisis actor
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: poodle ranch
Posts: 8,380
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Article on newly developing Orthodox enclaves in the NYC metro, highlighting the Greenville neighborhood in Jersey City.

As Brooklyn and traditional Orthodox centers are extremely expensive and overcrowded, satellite communities are springing up, sometimes leading to tensions between long-time locals and newcomers:

Uneasy Welcome as Ultra-Orthodox Jews Extend Beyond New York
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/02/n...ew-jersey.html

These tensions will increase in the coming years. Orthodox obviously have high birthrates, and while Brooklyn's Orthodox population continues robust growth, an increasing share of growth will be in cheaper satellite communities.

There are now 30,000 kids enrolled in shuls in Lakewood, NJ. Possibly more than anywhere outside of Brooklyn (100,000 in shuls) and Israel. Also 25,000 enrolled in Ramapo-area shuls (Rockland County, NY, around Monsey).
purely anecdotal, but it seems like i am seeing a lot of new jersey/ny plated vehicles (minivans) in midwestern orthodox neighborhoods (like the one i live in), which of course are way, way cheaper as a general rule than brooklyn, or other areas in metro nyc. way more new jersey than new york, though.
__________________
t h e r e is no C h a o s.... . . . only g r e a t E n e r g y
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #146  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2017, 1:42 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 15,565
Quote:
Originally Posted by Centropolis View Post
purely anecdotal, but it seems like i am seeing a lot of new jersey/ny plated vehicles (minivans) in midwestern orthodox neighborhoods (like the one i live in), which of course are way, way cheaper as a general rule than brooklyn, or other areas in metro nyc. way more new jersey than new york, though.
I wouldn't be surprised. St. Louis has an established Orthodox community and is pretty cheap, so makes sense.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #147  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2017, 2:18 PM
McBane McBane is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 2,673
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
It is very much a double edged sword as key people in the Front national have spouted Holocaust denial rhetoric.
Ahh, the joys of being Jewish. Is there any other group that's hated by BOTH the far right and far left?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #148  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2017, 1:42 AM
Rhey10 Rhey10 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 2
I can also identify Jewish people in San francisco. But maybe there are mestiza/mestizo but only the blood of Jewish looks prevails on their appearances.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #149  
Old Posted Dec 31, 2017, 5:56 PM
Docere Docere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,937
Jewish population in Canada halved in 5 years!(not really - just a matter of how census questions are framed):

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ick=sf_globefb
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #150  
Old Posted Dec 31, 2017, 6:49 PM
Capsicum's Avatar
Capsicum Capsicum is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Western Hemisphere
Posts: 1,507
Quote:
Originally Posted by Docere View Post
As a general rule, in the Northeast and Midwest (as well as Toronto and Montreal in Canada), there were large Jewish immigrant populations a century ago.

In the South and West - DC, Florida, California etc. - Jewish populations are not usually the product of direct immigration, and were greatly outnumbered by domestic migration. Hence only a small minority of Jews in L.A., say, can trace their roots to Boyle Heights, for example.

In Britain, meanwhile, the Jewish population is much more concentrated in London nowadays than it was in the early 20th century. Manchester, Leeds and to some extent Glasgow had good sized Jewish populations.
Are there many places in the US at all (be they in the south, the west or other newer locale), that have a new enough Jewish community that it was the result of direct immigration after the Ellis Island period and not domestic movement from the east coast (or midwest)?

The 19th century and early 20th century emigration wave was probably so much larger than the post-war or Soviet Union emigration wave, that it's probably unlikely that there's many cities or towns whose Jewish community is completely numerically dominated by post-war or Soviet Union immigrants without having the earlier Jewish population having a presence there. Probably the odds are more likely in Canada but still I think even still, most Canadian cities had far more earlier 20th century than mid- to late 20th century Jewish immigration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonesy55 View Post
I'm not sure why people are that surprised at cities having low Jewish populations, there are only 14 million Jewish people in the whole world, less than 0.2% of the global population.

Compare that with 2.5 billion Christians, 1.5 billion Muslims, 1 billion Hindus, 0.5 billion Buddhists and you can see it's a tiny religion. There are even twice as many Sikhs as Jews in the world.
But Jewish communities have been a part of the West for generations in a way that most Hindus or Buddhists, and to a lesser extent Muslims (who still had more interaction with the European/Western world of course) haven't. For many generations, the Jewish religion was the second religion that Christian Americans and Europeans would have familiarity with or personal contact with, not these other religions.

People seem to love to compare Asian and Jewish populations in the west but I think it's an apples-to-oranges comparison.

First, Jewish populations are mostly not from new immigrants (though of course new immigration does happen as discussed in this thread with say European Jews moving to the US, or Israelis moving to the US and vice versa), but most Hindu and Buddhist populations have the bulk of their population from the post 1960s and 1970s wave of immigration in most western countries (Canada, the mainland US, Europe, Australia, etc.). Earlier waves of these groups existed of course in the 19th century (there are Sikh temples dating back over a century in the north American west) but were small compared to later. I'm not counting places like Hawaii or Suriname or Guyana that had lots of Asian Buddhist/Hindu emigration much earlier in colonial times, though technically they're in the "western world" too in the sense of being in the Western Hemisphere and products of western/European colonization.

Secondly, the Jewish diaspora was traditionally the archetype of the term diaspora (which only later became popularized for other diasporas like the Armenian, Irish, Chinese, African, etc.).

Most Jews are diasporic, most Hindus/Buddhists are not.

The Chinese diaspora and Indian diaspora might look huge in absolute number but in percentage terms, the diaspora, even if it numbers in the millions (or even tens of millions depending on how you count), it still small compared to the population of India or China, of which the diaspora's population then pales in comparison, not like the Jewish case, where the millions of US plus other western countries' Jewish populations outnumber Israel's, and of course for previous generations, the population was pretty much only diasporic.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #151  
Old Posted Dec 31, 2017, 6:49 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 15,565
Are the Persians in North York Jewish, like the Persians of West LA and Great Neck? I suspect no.

I've noticed the huge Persian presence around Yonge, but it seemed of more recent vintage, and didn't notice any telltale signs of Jewish neighborhoods.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #152  
Old Posted Dec 31, 2017, 6:56 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 15,565
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capsicum View Post
Are there many places in the US at all (be they in the south, the west or other newer locale), that have a new enough Jewish community that it was the result of direct immigration after the Ellis Island period and not domestic movement from the east coast (or midwest)?
LA has a big population of Persian Jews, who are relatively recent immigrants, and really all major U.S. metros have some degree of former Soviet Jewish presence.

But, yeah, more recent Jewish immigration to the U.S. tends to be centered around NYC. Brooklyn and Queens have neighborhoods dominated by Syrian Jews, Israeli Jews, and Bukharan Jews (Central Asia), among others. Kew Garden Hills for Israelis, Rego Park for Bukharans and the whole Ocean Parkway corridor for Syrians.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #153  
Old Posted Dec 31, 2017, 7:14 PM
Docere Docere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,937
Do a majority of NYC Jews even have the "Ellis Island" immigration story anymore? The Hasidic immigration wave was post-war. There was also the Soviet wave in the last quarter of the 20th century. Plus there are Syrian Jews, Israelis etc. in more recent decades.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #154  
Old Posted Dec 31, 2017, 7:27 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 15,565
Quote:
Originally Posted by Docere View Post
Do a majority of NYC Jews even have the "Ellis Island" immigration story anymore? The Hasidic immigration wave was post-war. There was also the Soviet wave in the last quarter of the 20th century. Plus there are Syrian Jews, Israelis etc. in more recent decades.
In the city proper, definitely no. In the suburbs, yes, for a few more decades.

There are no Jewish neighborhoods in NYC proper that aren't dominated by more recent arrivals. UWS would come the closest, I guess, but not majority Jewish (probably no more than 1/3 at this point) and lots of Modern Orthodox from later waves.

Pretty much any gentrified core neighborhood will have a significant Jewish presence descending from the older waves but none of these areas are majority Jewish, and all will lean somewhat secular. And the Jews are as likely to be from Ohio or California as from Brooklyn.

The "real" Jewish neighborhoods in NYC are all Orthodox or centered around a certain ethnicity.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #155  
Old Posted Dec 31, 2017, 7:32 PM
Capsicum's Avatar
Capsicum Capsicum is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Western Hemisphere
Posts: 1,507
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Pretty much any gentrified core neighborhood will have a significant Jewish presence descending from the older waves but none of these areas are majority Jewish, and all will lean somewhat secular. And the Jews are as likely to be from Ohio or California as from Brooklyn.
I guess it also depends on if you count someone whose family was originally from Brooklyn (from the older immigration wave), who moved to Ohio or California, and then back to a (gentrified) Brooklyn again.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #156  
Old Posted Dec 31, 2017, 7:46 PM
Docere Docere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,937
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
The "real" Jewish neighborhoods in NYC are all Orthodox or centered around a certain ethnicity.
This is true in Toronto as well, with the exception of the long-established, wealthy Jewish neighborhood of Forest Hill. The Jewish neighborhoods of the Bathurst corridor of North York are very much immigrant neighborhoods.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #157  
Old Posted Dec 31, 2017, 7:52 PM
Capsicum's Avatar
Capsicum Capsicum is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Western Hemisphere
Posts: 1,507
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post

The "real" Jewish neighborhoods in NYC are all Orthodox or centered around a certain ethnicity.
The whole concept of newer members of a diaspora being more "real" and "authentic" than descendants of an older, more assimilated waves of a diaspora seems interesting but can be controversial.

Does the average American think of the old-time Brooklyn, Yiddish-speaking community when they imagine the average Jewish neighborhood or the newer Orthodox, Israeli or post- Soviet Union immigrants?

Are Irish expats in Boston more Irish than members of the old time Irish American population whose family hasn't set foot in Ireland in three or four generations? Some Irish from the actual country will call the latter the disparaging term "plastic paddies" for overplaying their Irishness.

Does a first generation African immigrant neighborhood of say, Washington DC, get to claim it's representative of an authentic black or African culture, relative to the long-standing African American community with southern roots? Or even to the Gullah community of Georgia and South Carolina?

Do the Tejanos or Hispanos of New Mexico represent authentic Hispanic American culture relative to a first or second generation immigrant from Mexico, in say Chicago?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #158  
Old Posted Dec 31, 2017, 8:02 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 15,565
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capsicum View Post
The whole concept of newer members of a diaspora being more "real" and "authentic" than descendants of an older, more assimilated waves of a diaspora seems interesting but can be controversial.
I meant "real" as in "majority Jewish". The stereotypical "Seinfeld" type neighborhoods of NYC still have a big Jewish presence but none are close to majority Jewish these days.

But I think one could argue that observant neighborhoods are more "real" than neighborhoods full of secular or cultural Jews. I mean, my current neighborhood is probably around 25-30% Jewish, but the presence is pretty subtle for NY standards. A casual observer wouldn't notice it.

I would have a very hard time determining who among my white neighbors has Catholic, Protestant or Jewish background, outside of guessing with last names, and with intermarriage even names aren't too helpful.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #159  
Old Posted Dec 31, 2017, 8:13 PM
Capsicum's Avatar
Capsicum Capsicum is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Western Hemisphere
Posts: 1,507
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
I meant "real" as in "majority Jewish". The stereotypical "Seinfeld" type neighborhoods of NYC still have a big Jewish presence but none are close to majority Jewish these days.

But I think one could argue that observant neighborhoods are more "real" than neighborhoods full of secular or cultural Jews. I mean, my current neighborhood is probably around 25-30% Jewish, but the presence is pretty subtle for NY standards. A casual observer wouldn't notice it.

I would have a very hard time determining who among my white neighbors has Catholic, Protestant or Jewish background, outside of guessing with last names, and with intermarriage even names aren't too helpful.
Well, there's that survey/study about assimilation showing that third and fourth generation members of some ethnic groups like Hispanics drop their ethnic label after a while. There's probably some complication in terms of how one identifies themselves versus how their families identified them or how others identified them though.

Jewish identity isn't entirely comparable to an identity like Hispanic though, because the former has religious vs. cultural and ethnic complexities, and the latter has linguistic/geographical vs. cultural and ethnic complexities.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #160  
Old Posted Dec 31, 2017, 9:25 PM
Docere Docere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,937
Manhattan has 240,000 Jews (15% of the population), and 20,000 are in "Brownstone Brooklyn" (11% of the population). The other 75% of NYC Jews are very much in Orthodox and immigrant neighborhoods.

http://www.jewishdatabank.org/studie...fm?FileID=3049

Last edited by Docere; Jan 1, 2018 at 12:01 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 2:32 AM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.