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  #61  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2017, 4:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Via Chicago View Post
are we really comparing Sullivan designs to Goettsch cubicle farms?
no. my point is that there's ALWAYS someone to complain about anything when the thing in questions starts becoming a bit to common for their sensitivities.

most mies buildings are pure magic. but people even complained about the ubiquity of his designs too. fucking mies, man!

if jordan had been cloned 11 times and the entire bulls roster in the 90s was made up of 12 jordans, i guarantee you that someone would have bitched about it.
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  #62  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2017, 4:39 PM
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no. my point is that there's ALWAYS someone to complain about anything when the thing in questions starts becoming a bit to common for their sensitivities.

most mies buildings are pure magic. but people even complained about the ubiquity of his designs too. fucking mies, man!

if jordan had been cloned 11 times and the entire bulls roster in the 90s was made up of 12 jordans, i guarantee you that someone would have bitched about it.
true, but thats why language evolves. no one wants to have the same conversation over and over again, unless its a REALLY good conversation. and even then, you kinda just want to move onto another topic at some point.
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  #63  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2017, 4:41 PM
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Originally Posted by BVictor1 View Post
Here we have a long, narrow, and rectilinear piece of property that has restrictions and demands.

This is about efficiency and profitability.
That's fine, but it should also be about vision. There is no law that says you can't have vision with efficiency and profitability. I'm sure many firms would by happy to rise to that challenge.

I still think many of the buildings cited above are boxy, with the exception of 333 Wacker, which is outstanding and groundbreaking. But guys, that was built in 1983. And more than 30 years later, River Point tries to execute the same magic, but it just doesn't pull it off. It's a bit clumsy, especially the top. It's one thing to pay homage to a classic tower and do it perfectly, it's another to sort of phone it in. That's the way I feel about RP.

As for 150, I don't think that was phoned in, but I do think it's a box.
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  #64  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2017, 4:44 PM
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As for 150, I don't think that was phoned in, but I do think it's a box.
and again we revisit the point of our optical systems functioning in very different fashions.
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  #65  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2017, 4:45 PM
LouisVanDerWright LouisVanDerWright is offline
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Originally Posted by BuildThemTaller View Post
I mean, first off, the parcel is incredibly tight, bounded by the River, Wacker, Randolph, and Washington. A rectangle is the most efficient use of space.

But let's not forget the context of this building and it's neighbors. You act as if the only thing Chicago has is tall boxes. That's just not true.
This will look very different from its immediate neighbors.
Each of these buildings includes a right angle therefore they are boxes. Every building from now on must be designed by OMA or MAD with no 90 degree corners. Also the buildings must be ribbed for our pleasure.

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Originally Posted by aaron38 View Post
Another riverfront tower is always good. I like the tower portion just fine, and the trapezoidal relationship to the river. Something about the base feels clunky, unfinished. Maybe I'm just not a fan of the tower-on-stilts thing. But if the client wants a big tall open lobby space, what other option is there?
Well there's always this solution:


Via our very own Harry C


Oh wait, nevermind, that's just another "Goettsch cubicle farm" that is a "box" because it has at least one right angle.

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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
and i'm also sure that if the internet had existed in 1898, someone would have been on "ye olde skyscraperpage" bitching about all of the ubiquitous boxy sullivan buildings going up all over town.

the more things change.........
And what's with them using terrcotta for everything??? These buildings need more domes and gargoyles. We really need to draw more on ancient Greek design...

/flash forward 10 years
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  #66  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2017, 4:46 PM
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actually, 150 is the definition of phoned in since its basically a copy of another nearly identical Goettsch building in the UAE


https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...aa88986bb4.jpg
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  #67  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2017, 4:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
no. my point is that there's ALWAYS someone to complain about anything when the thing in questions starts becoming a bit to common for their sensitivities.
I don't think it's just someone. I think many people would agree that it's time for a less boxy narrative, at least in part. Not every building has to be brilliant. But some should. And in the realm of office construction, we just haven't seen that in a long time. I'm advocating for a bit of change is all. Nothing wrong with that.
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  #68  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2017, 4:46 PM
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and even then, you kinda just want to move onto another topic at some point.
as will chicago. geottsch isn't going to design every new office tower in this town until the end of time. this is just their moment in the sun. that moment will pass.
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  #69  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2017, 4:49 PM
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actually, 150 is the definition of phoned in since its basically a copy of another nearly identical Goettsch building in the UAE
Yes, it is a copy. But they spent a great deal of time thinking about the cladding and it's relationship to the river. The setbacks are good and the engineering of the cantilever is impressive. It doesn't look clumsy.
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  #70  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2017, 4:51 PM
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This is about efficiency and profitability.
And yet 50% is public space. I have a feeling the Alderman had a lot of input on this one.

It's far from my favorite new building, but I'm also very thankful Brendan didn't completely ruin it.
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  #71  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2017, 4:51 PM
LouisVanDerWright LouisVanDerWright is offline
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Originally Posted by Notyrview View Post
That's fine, but it should also be about vision. There is no law that says you can't have vision with efficiency and profitability. I'm sure many firms would by happy to rise to that challenge.

I still think many of the buildings cited above are boxy, with the exception of 333 Wacker, which is outstanding and groundbreaking. But guys, that was built in 1983. And more than 30 years later, River Point tries to execute the same magic, but it just doesn't pull it off. It's a bit clumsy, especially the top. It's one thing to pay homage to a classic tower and do it perfectly, it's another to sort of phone it in. That's the way I feel about RP.
I'm still not sure how you are concluding that River Point is a box, it's an elliptical floorplate with indentations on both ends set on an angle to the street grid. It is topped by a multi story rounded crown. Now sure you can say maybe the design could be more adventuresome, but to call it a box is silly. Is it a box because it has the same floorplate for 50 stories? Is that what you are trying to get at? That every floorplate needs to change or a building is a box? That seems to be what you are getting at considering the wide range of designs you are lumping together as "boxes". Hate to break it to you, but changing the floorplate more than a few times in an office building is a deal breaker because of how it screws with leasing and space planning for tenants.

Also curious what you think of Vista, is that a box? Is Trump Tower a box? Does Aqua count as a box? What exactly makes something a box to you?
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  #72  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2017, 4:52 PM
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Yes, it is a copy. But they spent a great deal of time thinking about the cladding and it's relationship to the river. The setbacks are good and the engineering of the cantilever is impressive. It doesn't look clumsy.
not denying any of that, but it dosent change theyve become entirely predictable and a bit of a one trick pony
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  #73  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2017, 4:54 PM
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not denying any of that, but it dosent change theyve become entirely predictable and a bit of a one trick pony
Totally, i concur. They need to retire, pack up and head to Florida. The next generation should take the helm.
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  #74  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2017, 4:56 PM
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The spot for something new and daring should have been Wolf Point. Should be a really tall one there ....i would prefer something pointy (official architectural term there) 8)
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  #75  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2017, 5:03 PM
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Count me in as pretty underwhelmed with this one. Don't get me wrong - this is a fine design on its own. However, my unenthusiastic reaction upon learning that Goettsch got this job is definitely reinforced by the design. It's a Goettsch.
It's kinda what I expected. They do what they do, and they do it well. I'd have preferred to have seen someone else get this commission, which I think would have happened had Riverside/O'Donnell not gotten in on the deal. Developers who exclusively work with a single design architect really annoy me.....there's a certain laziness at play, whether they recognize it or not....

Goettsch and Pickard - I'm definitely looking for other architects to jump into the downtown office design scene. And - this is why I've been so excited for the Ronan and Kreuck and Sexton towers.....which, by the way - I think Ronan's will turn out to be a gem, and have fingers crossed that K+S's will land its anchor deal in the next few months and kick-off - because I think that will be a gem too (although, I hesitate to even type this, but 110 will have some obstruction on 130's w view from upper floors).....
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  #76  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2017, 5:03 PM
LouisVanDerWright LouisVanDerWright is offline
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Originally Posted by Notyrview View Post
Yes, it is a copy. But they spent a great deal of time thinking about the cladding and it's relationship to the river. The setbacks are good and the engineering of the cantilever is impressive. It doesn't look clumsy.
I love how every building that reuses any aesthetic or structural solution is "a copy". It's almost as if you guys have never read anything about architectural history. You do realize we were still slapping false Ionic columns on the front of buildings for thousands of years without even thinking about why we were doing it right? Merely reusing a structural solution (hard to even call the original use of it in this case a "solution" really since it's basically just flair in the desert) in a building on the otherside of the world does not a copy make.

Look at Frank Lloyd Wright's designs, was Robie House "Phoned in" because it rehashed designs and themes and solutions Wright first used in the Martin House, Heller House, etc? Look at Sullivan, was the Wainwright Building "phoned in" because it is basically a more refined redux of the Prudential Building in Buffalo? Absolutely not and you would be laughed at by anyone who has a knowledge of architectural history if you said such a thing.

Guess what guys, that's not how art works. Great design does not just manifest itself in instant classics that are all inherently unique. No, it is part of a continuum of works that evolve and build upon themselves ultimately resulting in masterpieces. Painting, sculpture, literature, etc all work this way, architecture does too. In fact this is inherently how culture works, how do we even know how to build a skyscraper to begin with? Because people pass down and refine these designs and ideas over generations. They "copy" themselves and each other over and over again. The artist completes one work (which is often one of many simultaneously in progress) and continuously refines their future works based upon the discoveries and lessons learned by their past works. So it should be no surprise to you to see Goettsch towers all with similar design language or iterations on similar structural acrobatics because THAT'S HOW IT WORKS.
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  #77  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2017, 5:05 PM
SamInTheLoop SamInTheLoop is offline
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^ Thanks professor.
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  #78  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2017, 5:06 PM
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^
so what does lazy design from a firm look like to you exactly.

as i said, if youre consistently producing A+ knockouts and are at the cutting edge of your craft (Mies, Wright, Sullivan, Ando) i dont think too many people are going to complain about having a surplus. the issue is when your output is mired in mediocrity.
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  #79  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2017, 5:10 PM
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I'm very proud to say that there was no opposition from my neighbors at 165 N Canal - just some legitimate concerns about noise and staging. It definitely helps having the exact same team involved in this building. The Clark construction crew did an admirable job trying to address complaints / concerns throughout Riverside construction. There were donuts provided on mornings after night work, meet and greets for neighbors and crew - even going to the extent of the PM publicly posting his cell number and encouraging people to call 24/7.

Thinking back to the Riverside development (about 15' from half of the 165 Canal's balconies) even that project had little opposition from neighbors. In that case there were the usual concerns about views, but the Board's stance was that the new building (and specifically covering the tracks) would greatly increase condo values - and they were right. I wish the rest of the West Loop residents could be as reasonable when it comes to welcoming new development.
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  #80  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2017, 5:17 PM
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Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright View Post
I'm still not sure how you are concluding that River Point is a box, it's an elliptical floorplate with indentations on both ends set on an angle to the street grid. It is topped by a multi story rounded crown. Now sure you can say maybe the design could be more adventuresome, but to call it a box is silly. Is it a box because it has the same floorplate for 50 stories? Is that what you are trying to get at? That every floorplate needs to change or a building is a box? That seems to be what you are getting at considering the wide range of designs you are lumping together as "boxes". Hate to break it to you, but changing the floorplate more than a few times in an office building is a deal breaker because of how it screws with leasing and space planning for tenants.

Also curious what you think of Vista, is that a box? Is Trump Tower a box? Does Aqua count as a box? What exactly makes something a box to you?
Oh for fuck sake, fine, it's LITERALLY not a box. But it's a very mediocre variation on a rectangle, cf. Aqua and Wanda which very much redefine what a retangle can be. Trump is its own giant cock thing. Def not a box. I dig it. As much as I despise it's namesake.
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