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  #21  
Old Posted Apr 21, 2017, 9:01 PM
Emprise du Lion Emprise du Lion is offline
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Chicago already let Walmart into the city years ago, even if the majority of their locations are focused primarily on groceries rather than full sized stores; Target's presence increases every year, especially when it comes to their smaller neighborhood focused stores; Walgreens has covered the Loop with so many locations that you can quite literally stand in one and see another; and Amazon rolled out its same day delivery and pickup service awhile ago, so no, I don't think this would work in Chicago. We crossed the Rubicon awhile ago.

That being said, some of them have been able to take advantage of historic buildings. Here's the Target on State St in the Loop:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ta...275442!6m1!1e1

Walgreens in Wicker Park:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Wa...677768!6m1!1e1
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  #22  
Old Posted Apr 21, 2017, 9:23 PM
Jonesy55 Jonesy55 is offline
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Originally Posted by Pedestrian View Post
In SF, yes.

Formula retail is defined as a store having:


http://sf-planning.org/chain-stores-formula-retail-use

Doesn't matter where the first store was. Once they hit 11 they are subject to the ordinance. The existing locations can stay but new ones have to comply which can mean they are prohibited.
Is it not possible to get around this by splitting the business.

I.e. I open 11 branches of Jonesy's All English Steak & Kidney Pie shops owned by me through Jonesycorp Inc. Then when I want to open the 12th I use identical branding and menu but it's owned by Jonesycorp2 Inc.
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  #23  
Old Posted Apr 21, 2017, 9:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Jonesy55 View Post
Is it not possible to get around this by splitting the business.

I.e. I open 11 branches of Jonesy's All English Steak & Kidney Pie shops owned by me through Jonesycorp Inc. Then when I want to open the 12th I use identical branding and menu but it's owned by Jonesycorp2 Inc.

No. That's what franchises do. There may be a million McDonalds in the world but only 100,000 franchisees. But McDonalds is McDonalds.

However, the reverse is not true. One owner can have as many DIFFERENT restaurants as he wants and not be "formula" as long as each one is a bit different and unique--employees dressed differently, different color scheme (purple arches, not golden), different branding.
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  #24  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2017, 4:46 PM
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Perhaps Formula Retail could make exceptions for cheap places like fast food, dollar stores, etc. but keep high end department type stores out if they have more than 11 stores.
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  #25  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2017, 8:26 PM
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Sometimes the equation allows X number of stores within the city or state...department stores would typically be ok.

In my area, franchises get counted as part of the chain regarding wage laws etc.
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  #26  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2017, 9:23 PM
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I think the crux is more with how things are developed and structured. It's more lucrative to combine a bunch of small lots and build an imposing, large structure that is totally out of scale, which will demand larger retail spaces in many cases. Cities in North America (and maybe elsewhere, I'm not sure) need to re-emphasize fine-grained, human-scaled streetscapes. Those spaces which are less lucrative to a DSW or Whole Foods. Not that larger scale retailers don't have their place, but honestly, how many Shoppers Drug Marts do we need?

But that only solves part of the issue. The other issue is that newer developments tend to seek higher rents and they tend to only lease out to more secure (ie chain) tenants. Banks are very popular in these situations as they are very secure, and likely to stay put for decades. It's partly for this reason that Jane Jacobs advocated for old commercial buildings and I think part of the solution is to preserve those buildings better where applicable (we don't need a museum city) while incentivizing fine-grained retail and giving loans to new entrepreneurs in new retail spaces.
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  #27  
Old Posted Apr 23, 2017, 12:44 AM
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Not that larger scale retailers don't have their place, but honestly, how many Shoppers Drug Marts do we need?
Canadians have suggested that we need a ton of Shoppers Drug Marts. That said, many will be put off when the Hard Rock cafe, a 39 year Yonge Street fixture, is converted into a Shoppers Drug Mart.

The patio and even sign adds character to this tourist spot. I don't care how unique they try and make this flagship Shoppers, it won't be as interesting as what's there now. Then again, Hard Rock is a chain too. The SF regulations are interesting but not sure how it would play out in real life. Would it have meant that this Hard Rock cafe never came into being?

This will be a Shoppers Drug Mart

Courtesy of eraarch

There's already a Shoppers on the other side of the square (and one across the street in the Eaton Centre)

Courtesy of bp
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Last edited by isaidso; Apr 23, 2017 at 12:58 AM.
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  #28  
Old Posted Apr 23, 2017, 3:06 PM
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The Cheesecake Factory should move there instead.
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  #29  
Old Posted Apr 23, 2017, 3:35 PM
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Originally Posted by sopas ej View Post
Isn't brick-and-mortar retail disappearing anyway?

I know, just playing devil's advocate. I got into a brief conversation with someone regarding this; those spur-of-the-moment, suddenly needed purchases can't be handled by ordering something online: "I need a new tie for my cousin's wedding in 3 hours! F*UCK!" So of course you're gonna run into a store to buy a necktie, you're not gonna order it online.
Even that's changing. Here in England (it's a small country) next day delivery is becoming the norm, and the new frontier is same day delivery. I have no doubt that you'll seem to able to order things on Amazon and have them show up in a couple of hours.

Anyway, I think there are good arguments for banning certain stores from a historic preservation standpoint or retaining local character (so that a harborfront remains fish shops and not banks, for instance), but it's not viable at a citywide level.
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  #30  
Old Posted Apr 23, 2017, 7:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M II A II R II K View Post
Perhaps Formula Retail could make exceptions for cheap places like fast food, dollar stores, etc. but keep high end department type stores out if they have more than 11 stores.
First, SF Formula Retail law allows neighborhood review. It is not an outright ban, but requires any formula retail chain to seek approval via a conditional use permit (this serves two purposes, first) if the chain vacates the location, another chain cannot use the existing permit; second) it allows the actual neighborhood to vote/comment on whether to allow the permit. That means a chain store must reach out to the neighborhood and local merchants can lobby to stop the permit. It is not based on the type of services offered by a chain, but rather on the input of the impact neighborhoods.
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  #31  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2017, 1:04 AM
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I have mixed feelings about this. Austin (my home town) has "Keep Austin Weird" to help promote local businesses, and I was a huge supporter of that in the way that I chose to shop when I still lived there. Did I shop at Walmart, Target, HEB (large grocery chain in Texas), etc.? You bet. Their prices and convenience couldn't be beat sometimes...but where I ate, drank coffee, paid for services for my car, home repair, etc....these were predominantly local. What I've found is that most folks will do what is best for their wallet in spite of their desire to support mom&pop establishments. Free market, for that reason, is a blessing and a curse. However, we do well to remember that Walmart was once a small, local, family-owned store in NW Arkansas.

I personally think having guidelines for architecture and size of establishments is better than saying who can come in and who can't.
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  #32  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2017, 1:18 PM
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Originally Posted by coyotetrickster View Post
First, SF Formula Retail law allows neighborhood review. It is not an outright ban, but requires any formula retail chain to seek approval via a conditional use permit (this serves two purposes, first) if the chain vacates the location, another chain cannot use the existing permit; second) it allows the actual neighborhood to vote/comment on whether to allow the permit. That means a chain store must reach out to the neighborhood and local merchants can lobby to stop the permit. It is not based on the type of services offered by a chain, but rather on the input of the impact neighborhoods.
Since it hasn't been said, this is somewhat amusing considering that article only a few weeks prior about how San Francisco is building too much ground floor retail in new construction, and needed to change zoning requirements to allow for first floor apartments. There is no way that the formula retail law isn't related to the high retail vacancy in these new developments, considering in general new construction retail is more expensive than the market norm, and attracts predominantly chains.
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  #33  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2017, 4:18 PM
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Generally, I don't think cities should place this kind of artificial barrier on business. However, I do think they should (more) strictly enforce land use policies and not give in (as much) when chain stores demand that they need things a certain way to do business. Things like grocery stores demanding acres of parking.
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  #34  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2017, 4:37 PM
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
many will be put off when the Hard Rock cafe, a 39 year Yonge Street fixture, is converted into a Shoppers Drug Mart.
Hard Rock Cafe is awfully 1980s. SF's disappeared around 20 year ago.

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A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted . . . .
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  #35  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2017, 4:40 PM
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Originally Posted by coyotetrickster View Post
First, SF Formula Retail law allows neighborhood review. It is not an outright ban, but requires any formula retail chain to seek approval via a conditional use permit (this serves two purposes
Not true. I posted the Planning Department's explanation above (post #13). Formula retail is outright banned, "As of May 2011, . . . in the Hayes-Gough NCD, North Beach NCD, and Chinatown Visitor Retail district" at least. On most other neighborhood shopping streets it is conditional use as you describe.
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  #36  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2017, 4:46 PM
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Originally Posted by M II A II R II K View Post
Perhaps Formula Retail could make exceptions for cheap places like fast food, dollar stores, etc. but keep high end department type stores out if they have more than 11 stores.
This is precisely the opposite of what most advocates intend to do. It's the "cheap" places that compete with Mom/Pop businesses they most want to keep out. Unless your family is very rich, Mom and Pop aren't opening a version of Bloomingdales or Tiffany's. But they may want to sell burgers in competition with McDonald's.
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  #37  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2017, 4:50 PM
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Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
Even that's changing. Here in England (it's a small country) next day delivery is becoming the norm, and the new frontier is same day delivery. I have no doubt that you'll seem to able to order things on Amazon and have them show up in a couple of hours.
You can do that now. When I was at my "vacation" home in the southwest desert a few months ago I conducted an experiment: Ordered something Amazon offered for "same day" delivery, not for a minute believing they would get it to me that day. Around 8 PM a car pulls up out front--not a commercial vehicle, just a guy in a car (maybe Uber or something)--and delivers what I ordered.

Soon, though, it will be a drone (drone car or flying drone I'm not sure.). Who needs the guy?
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  #38  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2017, 7:56 PM
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Seems like chain stores are really limiting themselves lately since so many of them are going out of business. That is certainly the case in the strip malls and enclosed malls around here. Maybe it is less prevalent in truly urban streetscapes, but I suspect that there will be a thinning out of chain store operations in those settings as well.
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  #39  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2017, 8:07 PM
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Doesn't Amazon already have one-hour delivery on many items in certain markets? I know you can get it in NYC (though I try to avoid Amazon whenever possible).
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  #40  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2017, 9:33 PM
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Doesn't Amazon already have one-hour delivery on many items in certain markets? I know you can get it in NYC (though I try to avoid Amazon whenever possible).
Yes, they do it in SF too. But I really had my doubts about 20 miles out in the desert past the indian reservation . . . but they did it the same day. Hate to think the guy had to drive 150 miles from Phoenix (the closest Amazon distribution center I know of).
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