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  #41  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2017, 1:50 PM
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Originally Posted by James Bond Agent 007 View Post
That's an interesting possibility, but since a large percentage (maybe even half? or probably at least a third) of the Germans were also Roman Catholics, it's not so cut and dried.
yeah, my whole german-chicagoan lineage going back 6 generations is entirely southern german catholic. i know a lot of people think that "german" automatically equals lutheran, but at least in chicago, there is a shitload of german catholic ancestry too.

together with the mexicans, poles, irish, and italians, chicago's large amount of german catholics is another big reason why chicagoland is the most catholic major metro area in the nation.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Apr 26, 2017 at 4:03 PM.
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  #42  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2017, 1:54 PM
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Germany, historically, was about 60-40 Lutheran-to-Catholic. No clue if immigration reflects these general ratios.

Nowadays, Germany has more Catholics than Lutherans, because Lutheranism in Germany is dying out faster, because East Germany basically outlawed religion (E. Germany was almost entirely Lutheran) and because Germany has absorbed lots of Catholic immigrants and Catholic German migrants from E. Europe after Communism fell.
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  #43  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2017, 2:35 PM
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Largest reported ancestry. In the 1980 census, English was the largest reported ancestry. The reason German ancestry "pulled ahead" is because of a huge drop-off in English ancestry responses in the South (where "American ancestry" is concentrated).

If 8 million Americans were of German ancestry in 1900 (after the mass immigration of the 19th century had occurred) how could they have surpassed English ancestry since then? The English had a massive head start as the majority of whites in the colonial era were English (no more than 10% were German, mostly in Pennsylvania).
Dunno - but maybe these self-reporting German-Americans have learned to procreate with those self-reporting English Americans and are having babies who self-report as something other than "English" to the census. Just a thought...
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  #44  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2017, 3:40 PM
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The Canadiens were there a few generations (around 6) before the British invasion. People in Nouvelle-France made the difference between the Canadiens (from French descent but born here in the country, often mixed with the First Nations) and the French (generally the colonial elite or first generation newcomers from France). We always called ourselves Canadiens. We didn't change that after we lost our country to the hand of the British. It even crystallized our identity, as the new British elites and settlers preferred to call themselves British at least until the BNAA of 1867. Nothing strange here. I see though that the "oldest parts" of British Canada like Southern Ontario still like to call themselves English. THAT is interesting
What's happening in Atlantic Canada though? Canadian is the #1 response there. Are people of British Isles stock viewing themselves as 'Canadian' or did 'Canadian' sneak into the top spot because people of British Isles stock gave 3 different answers: Scottish, Irish, English? There's quite an even splits between the 3 on the east coast.
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  #45  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2017, 3:48 PM
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Re: Looking at the Canadian map, basically the part of the country where the population was overwhelmingly comprised of people with multiple generations in Canada a century ago. "Canadian" responses in the West is lower because it was mostly populated via direct immigration from Britain and Europe in the early 20th century.

This is one of the reasons - in addition to physical geography - why I think the east/west divide in sharper in Canada than in the US. While direct immigration occurred in the West (such as British Mormon immigration to Utah, or Irish and Italians in San Francisco, Scandinavians to the Pacific Northwest etc.), they were probably outnumbered by westward migration of native born Americans.
It's quite possible. When people have been in a place for centuries they're far more likely to identify with it than the motherland 300 years back. I found a lot of British Isles people in Nova Scotia were like that. My childhood friend was visibly offended when I told him that his family were 'English'. It never occurred to him that he wasn't of Canada and had to show him on a map where England was. Granted he was 12 but I found most of the adults were like that too. His parents viewed the UK as an exotic distant land with no cultural attachment to it whatsover.
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  #46  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2017, 3:55 PM
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Question for Americans: Are there places in the US where German is still growing? In Canada the population is in a slow gradual decline as immigration to Canada from Germany peaked many decades ago. The exception is the Canadian prairie.

Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba are the most heavily 'German' part of the country but they also have a large German speaking anabaptist population. They are Mennonites and Hutterites rather than Amish and have a sky high birth rate. They are managing to keep the German speaking population in Canada stable. It might even be rising slightly.
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  #47  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2017, 4:01 PM
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Question for Americans: Are there places in the US where German is still growing? In Canada the population is in a slow gradual decline as immigration to Canada from Germany peaked many decades ago. The exception is the Canadian prairie.
I doubt it, except among baby-making Mennonites and the like, assuming they're German.

There has probably been an increase in German expats in the U.S. in recent years, especially related to the auto industry (upscale Detroit suburbs have a very visible German expat contingent, which didn't exist 20 years ago), but "normal" German immigration ended after WW2 (and even that was just German refugees from Russia and E. Europe).

Yiddish, a German dialect, is almost certainly growing, though, because it's spoken by Hasidic Jews (who have large families) but that has nothing really to do with Germans or Germany.
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  #48  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2017, 4:10 PM
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The fifth generation "militant Irish American" thing is probably more of a Boston phenomenon, while in New York it's more a product of 20th century immigration.
An interesting split occurred with the Irish in Canada too. The Maritime provinces are heavily Irish but when the Irish potato famine happened the majority predictably sought the big city. Toronto was English speaking but an 'orange' protestant town.

Irish Catholics would have suffered huge discrimination in Toronto so many opted for francophone Montreal instead. To this day, Montreal has a very large Irish community. In 1830, a quarter of Quebec City's population was Irish and in 1847 alone another 100,000 Irish arrived in Quebec's immigration reception centre on Grosse Isle. Today, over 400,000 Quebeckers identify as Irish and the Montreal St. Patricks Day Parade has been going strong since its inception in 1824.

Today roughly 15% of Canadians identify as Irish.
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Last edited by isaidso; Apr 26, 2017 at 4:25 PM.
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  #49  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2017, 4:35 PM
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An interesting split occurred with the Irish in Canada too. The Maritime provinces are heavily Irish but when the Irish potato famine happened the majority predictably sought the big city. Toronto was English speaking but an 'orange' protestant town.

Irish Catholics would have suffered huge discrimination in Toronto so many opted for francophone Montreal instead.

Yet tens of thousands still came, with 38,000 arriving in Toronto alone in 1847 - more than the existing population of the city. By that point Toronto was majority Irish, the population of which was roughly split between Protestant and Catholics. Unsurprisingly, this led to plenty of sectarian conflict, with riots between the two being a frequent occurrence through to the end of the 19th century. It was precisely because of that strong Catholic minority that the Orange Order had so much influence in early Toronto.
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  #50  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2017, 5:21 PM
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Yet tens of thousands still came, with 38,000 arriving in Toronto alone in 1847 - more than the existing population of the city. By that point Toronto was majority Irish, the population of which was roughly split between Protestant and Catholics. Unsurprisingly, this led to plenty of sectarian conflict, with riots between the two being a frequent occurrence through to the end of the 19th century. It was precisely because of that strong Catholic minority that the Orange Order had so much influence in early Toronto.
Yeah, I'm not so convinced that Irish Catholics went to Montreal to avoid Toronto.
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  #51  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2017, 5:25 PM
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I doubt it, except among baby-making Mennonites and the like, assuming they're German.

There has probably been an increase in German expats in the U.S. in recent years, especially related to the auto industry (upscale Detroit suburbs have a very visible German expat contingent, which didn't exist 20 years ago), but "normal" German immigration ended after WW2 (and even that was just German refugees from Russia and E. Europe).
The last wave of German immigration to the US was the US; something like 600,000 immigrants came to the US from Germany after WWII. But they didn't settle in any concentration whatsoever and their children are completely assimilated.
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  #52  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2017, 5:30 PM
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The last wave of German immigration to the US was the US; something like 600,000 immigrants came to the US from Germany after WWII. But they didn't settle in any concentration whatsoever and their children are completely assimilated.
And I don't think that wave even hailed from modern-day Germany.

There were many millions of ethnic Germans living in Russia and Eastern Europe at the close of WW2. They basically all went to Germany or the Americas after WW2. They were refugees.
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  #53  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2017, 5:35 PM
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As in the case with North Dakota (the US state that most closely resembles the Canadian Prairies), few immigrated to the Prairies directly from Germany, most were ethnic Germans from Russia. In Saskatchewan they were largely Catholic, while Manitoba received a much higher proportion of Mennonites.

Hence today while Saskatchewan has the highest percentage of German ancestry of any province, Manitoba has more German speakers. There are sizable German-speaking Mennonite communities in southeastern Manitoba with high birth rates.

Last edited by Docere; Apr 26, 2017 at 5:54 PM.
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  #54  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2017, 5:46 PM
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And I don't think that wave even hailed from modern-day Germany.

There were many millions of ethnic Germans living in Russia and Eastern Europe at the close of WW2. They basically all went to Germany or the Americas after WW2. They were refugees.
More post-war European immigrants to the US were from Germany from any other country and Germany was the top immigration source in the 1950s.

https://www.infoplease.com/us/race-p...country-origin
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  #55  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2017, 5:54 PM
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Mennonites:

Manitoba 44,600
Saskatchewan 17,130

Speak German at home:

Manitoba 44,155
Saskatchewan 12,575
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  #56  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2017, 6:14 PM
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More post-war European immigrants to the US were from Germany from any other country and Germany was the top immigration source in the 1950s.
I'm skeptical. I don't think I've met a German-American from that immigrant wave who was from modern-day Germany borders.

Prewar Germany was twice the size, so it could be many of these German-born migrants are from modern-day Poland, Russia, or Belarus, but it still doesn't fully explain the numbers.

There were also huge German communities in Czech Republic, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Hungary, Balkans, the Baltics, Ukraine, even Kazakhstan, all gone. Maybe they arrived via Germany, so counted as Germans?
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  #57  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2017, 6:15 PM
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And I don't think that wave even hailed from modern-day Germany.

There were many millions of ethnic Germans living in Russia and Eastern Europe at the close of WW2. They basically all went to Germany or the Americas after WW2. They were refugees.
If they came from Russia they would have been listed as Russian, not German, even if they were ethnic Germans. Immigration stats list country of origin, not ethnicity of origin.

My mother was one of those post-WWII German immigrants. She and her entire family (she was a teenager) came over here to move to Florida. My grandfather had actually lived in Queens for a bit during the Depression before going back to Germany (he died in the war and her mother re-married). After the war there were a lot of people bailing out of Europe.
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  #58  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2017, 6:19 PM
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I'm skeptical. I don't think I've met a German-American from that immigrant wave who was from modern-day Germany borders.
You haven't met my mother! (plus an aunt and 2 uncles). From Schleswig.

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Prewar Germany was twice the size, so it could be many of these German-born migrants are from modern-day Poland, Russia, or Belarus, but it still doesn't fully explain the numbers?
Don't forget that Germany had been blasted to smithereens, there was every reason for many to leave. In addition a ton of women were widowed and probably wanted to get the hell out of there and seek opportunity elsewhere (that said it would be interesting to see data for that period by gender).
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  #59  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2017, 6:31 PM
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BTW, Russian Germans primarily settled in the Great Plains. There's even a museum about them in Omaha:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German..._Volga_Germans
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  #60  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2017, 8:39 PM
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Speaking of the Prairies and diasporas, another great example of a "native born diaspora" is the Ukrainian Canadians of the Prairies. The Ukrainian language held out for a long time in rural areas. For example a recent Alberta premier Ed Stelmach grew up speaking Ukrainian, even though his grandparents had come to Canada half a century before he was born.

Ukraine is still a political issue and the Canadian government takes a harder line anti-Russia stance than any other country in the G-7. The current Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland is a Ukrainian Canadian and hard liner.

Winnipeg and Toronto both have around 100,000 Ukrainian Canadians. In Winnipeg, they make up about 15% of the population. Toronto received more recent immigration, including postwar DPs and post-1990 immigrants after the breakup of the Soviet Union.
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