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  #81  
Old Posted May 17, 2017, 7:25 PM
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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
this thread has become a little bit too versy
Indeed.

At end of the day...who really gives a shit which city is bigger?
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  #82  
Old Posted May 17, 2017, 7:57 PM
isaidso isaidso is offline
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Originally Posted by yuriandrade View Post
If Toronto-Hamilton is together, Los Angeles-San Bernardino, New York-Bridgeport, San Francisco-San Jose should be together.
Greater Toronto Hamilton is certainly one metro even if Statistics Canada separates it out as 3 metros.

To the left of Burloak Drive is Hamilton, the right is Toronto
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Last edited by isaidso; May 17, 2017 at 8:57 PM.
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  #83  
Old Posted May 17, 2017, 8:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Leo the Dog View Post
This article I read earlier reminds me of your post.
A Twitter employee earning $160,000 in San Francisco says he's scraping by

Someone earning 160k can make ends meet in San Francisco if they are not careless with their spending. I know because I have several friends who manage to do so. Not denying that it's not an expensive city but this is one of the headlines that a political and partisan poster who's always pushing their agenda would love.
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  #84  
Old Posted May 17, 2017, 9:35 PM
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
Greater Toronto Hamilton is certainly one metro even if Statistics Canada separates it out as 3 metros.
Ok, but do the same with Westchester-Fairfield, San Mateo-Santa Clara, Los Angeles-San Bernardino counties.
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  #85  
Old Posted May 17, 2017, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
Greater Toronto Hamilton is certainly one metro even if Statistics Canada separates it out as 3 metros.

To the left of Burloak Drive is Hamilton, the right is Toronto
Just because the suburban development is contiguous between the two does not mean they are the same place. Toronto and Hamilton are distinct places that, while interconnected, do differ in terms of sense of place. Just like Tokyo and Yokohama, Washington and Baltimore, Newcastle and Sunderland, etc. Oshawa, on the other hand, I agree, is basically an extension of Toronto at this point.
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  #86  
Old Posted May 17, 2017, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
Metros 1 million+


Australia/New Zealand - 6
Sydney 5,005,358
Melbourne 4,641,636
Brisbane 2,349,699
Perth 2,066,564
Auckland 1,495,000
Adelaide 1,326,354

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._by_population
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...nd_urban_areas

Canada - 6
Toronto-Hamilton 7,414,700
Montreal 4,093,800
Vancouver 2,548,700
Calgary 1,469,300
Edmonton 1,392,600
Ottawa 1,351,100

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tabl...emo05a-eng.htm

United Kingdom - 12
London 13,709,000
Birmingham 3,683,000
Manchester 2,556,000
Leeds-Bradford 2,302,000
Liverpool 2,241,000
Newcastle-Sunderland 1,599,000
Sheffield 1,569,000
South Hampshire 1,547,000
Nottingham-Derby 1,534,000
Glasgow 1,395,000
Cardiff 1,097,000
Bristol 1,041,000

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...United_Kingdom

United States - 53
New York 20,153,634
Los Angeles 13,310,447
Chicago 9,512,999
Dallas-Fort Worth 7,233,323
Houston 6,772,470
Washington 6,131,977
Philadelphia 6,070,500
Miami 6,066,387
Atlanta 5,789,700
Boston 4,794,447
San Francisco 4,679,166
Phoenix 4,661,537
Riverside 4,527,837
Detroit 4,297,617
Seattle 3,798,902
Minneapolis 3,551,036
San Diego 3,317,749
Tampa 3,032,171
Denver 2,853,077
St. Louis 2,807,002
Baltimore 2,798,886
Charlotte 2,474,314
Orlando 2,441,257
San Antonio 2,429,609
Portland 2,424,955
Pittsburgh 2,342,299
Sacramento 2,296,418
Cincinnati 2,165,139
Las Vegas 2,155,664
Kansas City 2,104,509
Austin 2,056,405
Cleveland 2,055,612
Columbus 2,041,520
Indianapolis 2,004,230
San Jose 1,978,816
Nashville 1,865,298
Virginia Beach 1,726,907
Providence 1,614,750
Milwaukee 1,572,482
Jacksonville 1,478,212
Oklahoma City 1,373,211
Memphis 1,342,842
Raleigh 1,302,946
Louisville 1,283,430
Richmond 1,281,708
New Orleans 1,268,883
Hartford 1,206,836
Salt Lake City 1,186,187
Birmingham 1,147,417
Buffalo 1,132,804
Rochester 1,078,879
Grand Rapids 1,047,099
Tucson 1,016,206

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...tistical_Areas
This list, in a sense, confirms that fussing over population stats doesn't mean much in the real world.

For example, although both London and Los Angeles are considered large, globally relevant cities, my impression is that London is the more substantial of the two, and I always recheck that when I see population stats.

Likewise, based on how "provincial" cities like Birmingham and Leeds are considered vis-a-vis London, you wouldn't think they're comparable to Amsterdam, Rome, or Seattle. They definitely don't appear to have the same layers and complexity and diversity that those cities do in other countries. I guess, like France, the UK is very London-centric. Whereas the US, Canada, and Australia are more polycentric, so you'll have stuff like Amazon based in Seattle, not New York, or major film production in Melbourne, not Sydney.
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  #87  
Old Posted May 18, 2017, 12:17 AM
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how riverside can be split from LA, makes no sense to me.
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  #88  
Old Posted May 18, 2017, 12:33 AM
isaidso isaidso is offline
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Originally Posted by yuriandrade View Post
Ok, but do the same with Westchester-Fairfield, San Mateo-Santa Clara, Los Angeles-San Bernardino counties.
What would the totals be for them?
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  #89  
Old Posted May 18, 2017, 12:37 AM
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Originally Posted by ue View Post
Just because the suburban development is contiguous between the two does not mean they are the same place. Toronto and Hamilton are distinct places that, while interconnected, do differ in terms of sense of place. Just like Tokyo and Yokohama, Washington and Baltimore, Newcastle and Sunderland, etc. Oshawa, on the other hand, I agree, is basically an extension of Toronto at this point.
What does being distinct have to do with whether it's one contiguous metro? Hamilton and Toronto feel different/are distinct places but it's still one metro. Uniform character isn't a pre-requisite. Osaka, Kyoto, and Kobe are all distinct but form 1 metro.
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World's First Documented Baseball Game: Beachville, Ontario, June 4th, 1838.
World's First Documented Gridiron Game: University College, Toronto, November 9th, 1861.
Hamilton Tiger-Cats since 1869 & Toronto Argonauts since 1873: North America's 2 oldest pro football teams

Last edited by isaidso; May 18, 2017 at 1:12 AM.
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  #90  
Old Posted May 18, 2017, 2:02 AM
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
What does being distinct have to do with whether it's one contiguous metro? Hamilton and Toronto feel different/are distinct places but it's still one metro. Uniform character isn't a pre-requisite. Osaka, Kyoto, and Kobe are all distinct but form 1 metro.
What? Metropolitan areas correspond with connectedness to a single place, due to a shared sense of place. It's usually measured by commutershed, which I don't believe Hamilton fits the criteria for with Toronto anyways. Most Hamiltonians do not commute into Toronto and even less Torontonians commute into Hamilton. Contiguous urban development does not a single metropolitan area make. Otherwise Bos-Wash would be a single metropolitan area. You're conflating metropolitan area with megalopolis. You can't even say that Hamilton exists due to Toronto's presence, as it was founded and built out largely independent of the GTA, unlike say, the Inland Empire or Silicon Valley, which are inextricably tied to Los Angeles and San Francisco, respectively, for their respective genesis'.
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  #91  
Old Posted May 18, 2017, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by ue View Post
What? Metropolitan areas correspond with connectedness to a single place, due to a shared sense of place. It's usually measured by commutershed, which I don't believe Hamilton fits the criteria for with Toronto anyways. Most Hamiltonians do not commute into Toronto and even less Torontonians commute into Hamilton. Contiguous urban development does not a single metropolitan area make. Otherwise Bos-Wash would be a single metropolitan area. You're conflating metropolitan area with megalopolis. You can't even say that Hamilton exists due to Toronto's presence, as it was founded and built out largely independent of the GTA, unlike say, the Inland Empire or Silicon Valley, which are inextricably tied to Los Angeles and San Francisco, respectively, for their respective genesis'.
The Bos-Wash corridor is far from being contiguous though.
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  #92  
Old Posted May 18, 2017, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by north 42 View Post
The Bos-Wash corridor is far from being contiguous though.
The entire corridor from Hartford, CT to Wilmington, DE is contiguous, though, and that spans many multiple CSAs.

Metro areas have nothing to do with continuous built-up land. If that's the case then Essen, Germany is bigger than Paris or London.
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  #93  
Old Posted May 18, 2017, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
10 Largest Metros in these 5 Countries
New York 20,153,634
London 13,709,000
Los Angeles 13,310,447
Chicago 9,512,999
Toronto-Hamilton 7,414,700
Dallas-Fort Worth 7,233,323
Houston 6,772,470
Washington 6,131,977
Philadelphia 6,070,500
Miami 6,066,387

Thanks for clarifying (i.e. Showing the actual MSA numbers instead of of a miss mash of MSA and CSA) the difference between MSA and CSA!
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  #94  
Old Posted May 18, 2017, 1:14 PM
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And if you want to compare the commute patterns of both cities they're remarkably similar.

Notably in terms of the outer metro. The very low thresholds of 1.5-2.6% says it all really, despite that doubling the catchment sizes of both cities, which add 4 million to NYC's contiguous population and a whopping 7 million to London's, thanks to high density countryside:

http://www.newgeography.com/content/...n-and-new-york


"Manhattan is a somewhat stronger draw to the suburban counties, with 18% of employees from the inner counties and 8% from the outer counties. The London CBD draws 17% of its workers from the inner counties and 5% from the outer counties. Despite the comprehensive suburban rail system in New York and both suburban and national rail system in London, comparatively few workers commute from beyond the outer counties --- 2.6% in London and 1.5% in New York "


^ i think that is because we have more drivers commuting here than london does. just a guess. anecdotal, but i work with people who commute from places like danbury, bridgeport, the pocanos, way upstate and deep in nj, who drive most of the time. crazy commutes and horror stories -- i dk how they do it.

and i can get with what muppet is saying above that too, its reasonable. the greenbelt functions similarly to what the more impermeable water, swamps of nj and hills and dales of westchester and upstate do for ny metro. if the greenbelt is seen as failing, that is only because it can fail, there is nothing stopping it from succeeding or failing, but politics. ny is more wedged in by both physical barriers and politically by the tri-state, but sprawl always finds its way.
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  #95  
Old Posted May 18, 2017, 2:58 PM
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Originally Posted by ozone View Post
Someone earning 160k can make ends meet in San Francisco if they are not careless with their spending. I know because I have several friends who manage to do so. Not denying that it's not an expensive city but this is one of the headlines that a political and partisan poster who's always pushing their agenda would love.
Did you read the article? I'm sure you have a friend that can make it on 160k in SF, that's not the point of the article.

The twitter employee is in his 40's, married with two kids. The article further states that he and his family are scrapping by, being replaced by 20 somethings, that have no problem shacking up together and splitting high rent 3 or 4 different ways, pushing prices up and driving families out of SF.

My comment was a response to this statement by Pedestrian.

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Originally Posted by Pedestrian View Post
Due to the cost of living, there is a slow, steady outflow of retiring baby boomers and some other native born folks from coastal California but they are being replaced by newer generations of immigrants and young, single college grads. The TV show "Siiicon Valley" accurately shows the phenomenon of 5 or 6 young grads living communally in a home occupied 20/30/40 years ago buy a middle class family (such a family being able to afford it today being scarce).
And it was this statement from the article I provided that reminded me of Pedestrian's post.

Quote:
"Families are priced out of the market," he says, explaining that it's hard to compete with the hordes of 20-somethings willing to pile into a shared house — and still pay $2,000 per person for a room.
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  #96  
Old Posted May 18, 2017, 9:00 PM
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Originally Posted by mrnyc View Post
^ i think that is because we have more drivers commuting here than london does. just a guess. anecdotal, but i work with people who commute from places like danbury, bridgeport, the pocanos, way upstate and deep in nj, who drive most of the time. crazy commutes and horror stories -- i dk how they do it.

and i can get with what muppet is saying above that too, its reasonable. the greenbelt functions similarly to what the more impermeable water, swamps of nj and hills and dales of westchester and upstate do for ny metro. if the greenbelt is seen as failing, that is only because it can fail, there is nothing stopping it from succeeding or failing, but politics. ny is more wedged in by both physical barriers and politically by the tri-state, but sprawl always finds its way.
You would need to be an idiot to commute into central London by car every day from outside Greater London I think, it's expensive and would be very time-consuming. The Green Belt does have a useful purpose in containing sprawl, but imo a nice compromise would be to allow mid to high density development anywhere within 2 km of an existing rail station within the greenbelt, there are dozens of those.

That would still protect 95% of the greenbelt from sprawl but also enable several hundred thousand more homes.
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  #97  
Old Posted May 18, 2017, 9:06 PM
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Similarly to San Francisco in London more and more properties get turned over into multiple occupancy, and then a family can't compete with several young workers all willing to pay 50% of their earnings just for a bedroom and shared bathroom/kitchen.
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  #98  
Old Posted May 18, 2017, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Jonesy55 View Post
You would need to be an idiot to commute into central London by car every day from outside Greater London I think, it's expensive and would be very time-consuming. The Green Belt does have a useful purpose in containing sprawl, but imo a nice compromise would be to allow mid to high density development anywhere within 2 km of an existing rail station within the greenbelt, there are dozens of those.

That would still protect 95% of the greenbelt from sprawl but also enable several hundred thousand more homes.
2km is a pretty wide area. Just densify existing built up areas.
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  #99  
Old Posted May 18, 2017, 10:33 PM
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Similarly to San Francisco in London more and more properties get turned over into multiple occupancy, and then a family can't compete with several young workers all willing to pay 50% of their earnings just for a bedroom and shared bathroom/kitchen.
Yes but at the same time buildings in zone 1 & 2 of London that were divided into flats are being turned back into single family homes.
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  #100  
Old Posted May 18, 2017, 10:38 PM
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I predict Miami metro will eclipse Washington DC metro.

Bound to happen. Quite a change from 10 years ago.
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