HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForumSkyscraper Posters
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions

Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #21  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2017, 9:55 PM
ue ue is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Notleygrad, Albertastan
Posts: 8,686
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxtex View Post
developers build what people want. you've got it the other way around. its not as if they are pulling as fast one on anybody. their product is a result of a desire to have it. from a policy standpoint, lots of cities favor single family zoning, yet their populations continue to grow and competition for the housing stock gets worse and worse. its that missing middle that im envious of. medium density, urban-ish housing. we have some, but its still hard to develop here. Portland zoning code, pre ww2 was far more urban minded than our existing code, 2017...its like that everywhere. laissez faire policy makes for a better city. or at least it did. this country was way more urban 100 years ago in than it is now.
The central idea of urban planning is that cities need to be regulated, there is market failure, and laypersons don't always know what's best for a city. I think it's a bit more nuanced than that, and there is a lot of merit to the stakeholder process. That being said, I highly doubt over half of Greater Toronto's new housing would be multifamily, if it weren't for the regulations created by Ontario's Greenbelts.

In a city like Portland, although it may be political suicide from the way you put it, the city could simply rezone lots to higher density so that when new infill is created, it must be denser or it won't get approved. Lack of zoning may have worked in the pre-automobile age, but because of the systematic nudging of governments and companies towards suburbs and automobiles, people have become reliant on it in North America to the point where non-zoned cities like Houston are extremely sprawling and car dependent. Portland's transit may be overhyped, but it seems far worse in Houston. The only way I see Houston changing is through massive incentivization and regulation of density, transit, and just planning in general. It's hard to undo all that has been done, and it can't be done passively with a lack of zoning, when there is a path dependence created towards car dependence.

With that said, I do believe that cities in general are over-regulated and over-zoned, such that they become museum cities or overpriced if they already have urban bones, or continue to sprawl to neverland elsewhere. Like planning in general, I believe there is nuance and somewhere in the middle is best.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #22  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2017, 10:01 PM
Private Dick's Avatar
Private Dick Private Dick is offline
Mal Vivant
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: D.C.
Posts: 3,098
Quote:
Originally Posted by niwell View Post
Sometimes extremely interesting independent stores and best "authentic" restaurants are in the suburbs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Centropolis View Post
this. sometimes an entire cuisine is only available (done well/authentic) in the "suburbs."
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChargerCarl View Post
Tyler Cowen actually wrote about this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/11/bo...ler-cowen.html
I find this to be true often. A lot of cities are just way too expensive for small restaurant owners to operate in the core. Many good spots just getting their starts can find available space in a strip mall plaza out in the burbs and owners of authentic ethnic food restaurants might have their places of business where they live.

Will have to read that Cowen article
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #23  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2017, 10:09 PM
Steely Dan's Avatar
Steely Dan Steely Dan is offline
Professional Midwesterner
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Edgewater, Chicago
Posts: 17,532
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChargerCarl View Post
But strict zoning has made it so that walkable cities are completely unaffordable for all but the rich, offsetting any transit savings.
bullshit. chicago has shitloads of EXTREMELY affordbable walkable neighborhoods well-served by rail transit.

it's just that violent crime levels are obscenely high in such areas, so they aren't on the radar of anyone other than poor african americans.
__________________
He has to go.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #24  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2017, 10:09 PM
Private Dick's Avatar
Private Dick Private Dick is offline
Mal Vivant
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: D.C.
Posts: 3,098
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChargerCarl View Post
Agreed. But strict zoning has made it so that walkable cities are completely unaffordable for all but the rich, offsetting any transit savings.
I think that's a generalization, probably best reserved for the NYCs, DCs, SFs, etcs. of the nation... and I've never read anything that supports the "offsetting transit savings" assertion. In most of the US, the price of housing is pretty close to the marginal, physical cost of new construction. There are walkable cities that are also very affordable.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #25  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2017, 10:11 PM
pdxtex's Avatar
pdxtex pdxtex is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 2,247
Quote:
Originally Posted by ue View Post
With that said, I do believe that cities in general are over-regulated and over-zoned, such that they become museum cities or overpriced if they already have urban bones, or continue to sprawl to neverland elsewhere. Like planning in general, I believe there is nuance and somewhere in the middle is best.

I agree. the liberal city is at a cross road. they are currently turning into enclaves for the rich, and have been rendered unaffordable for many. why? well, lots of reasons but id bargain too little construction, and especially too little multifamily construction. Portland is attempt to upzone some neighborhoods but its a slow process. I don't know the exact language but I think had something to do with blocks within 1/4 mile of transit stop. That would be a lot of area! Don't get me wrong, I really like this city a lot but its not the policy innovator everybody thinks it is. We just have a lot of smart and creative people, and a lot of high $$$ household incomes. We don't really have alot of strife to overcome so we are a policy test kitchen of sorts. But some of the challenges we're facing are the exact same challenges other popular cities are facing, especially affordability which I don't think you can regulate yourself out of. You just need to keep adding supply. Of course that comes with a price too, time, and congestion! If you lived downtown and are able to ride a bike to work, that's awesome. But our bike share is about 8% of all trips taken. 10 dollar a gallon oil, will be the greatest boon to urban development. Once it becomes cost prohibitive to drive you car, people will take urban develop more seriously.
__________________
Portland!! Where young people go to retire.

Last edited by pdxtex; Apr 28, 2017 at 11:02 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #26  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2017, 10:18 PM
pdxtex's Avatar
pdxtex pdxtex is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 2,247
in this thread, ron swansons versus leslie knopes!!
__________________
Portland!! Where young people go to retire.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #27  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2017, 10:42 PM
ChargerCarl's Avatar
ChargerCarl ChargerCarl is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Los Angeles/San Francisco
Posts: 2,326
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
bullshit. chicago has shitloads of EXTREMELY affordbable walkable neighborhoods well-served by rail transit.

it's just that violent crime levels are obscenely high in such areas, so they aren't on the radar of anyone other than poor african americans.
Other than Chicago?

And yeah, strict zoning in Chicago HAS made it unaffordable for people who would like to live in the safe and walkable North Side which is actually LOSING population now. See Daniel Kay Hertz on this.

But if your argument is that strict zoning isn't a problem because people can just move to extremely dangerous neighborhoods where they run a high risk of being victimized by violent crime...thats not very convincing...
__________________
This Machine Kills NIMBYs
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #28  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2017, 6:38 AM
Razor Razor is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 1,828
Hamilton will never get an NHL team.

Because if they did, Toronto would want one too.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #29  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2017, 3:07 PM
Beedok Beedok is online now
Exiled Hamiltonian
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,335
Quote:
Originally Posted by Razor View Post
Hamilton will never get an NHL team.

Because if they did, Toronto would want one too.
The NHL has talked about giving Toronto one.

Also, Toronto could learn a few things from other Canadian cities, it's not the best at everything.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #30  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2017, 3:40 PM
SLO's Avatar
SLO SLO is online now
REAL Kiwi!
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: California
Posts: 5,547
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChargerCarl View Post
For all of Houston's faults at least poor people can afford to live there.

Walkability doesn't mean shit to the people who are forced to drive long distances because they've been priced out of the city.
True, Houston is pretty damn dynamic in real life. Often times owning a modest vehicle is less expensive than transit.
__________________
He said he'd cure your ills, but he didn't and he never will
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #31  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2017, 3:50 PM
jigglysquishy's Avatar
jigglysquishy jigglysquishy is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 1,554
Quote:
Originally Posted by SLO View Post
True, Houston is pretty damn dynamic in real life. Often times owning a modest vehicle is less expensive than transit.
I'd be curious on the math on that once you factor in depreciation/ maintenance/ insurance/gas
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #32  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2017, 4:03 PM
Parkway's Avatar
Parkway Parkway is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 660
Gentrification is an unstoppable force. Saying you can do something about it as arrogant as pledging that you can stop continental drift or change the weather. The best you can really do is mitigate the negative consequences i.e. displacement.
__________________
"It's like a giant ball of peanut butter with a stick of Dynamite in the middle."
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #33  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2017, 4:32 PM
photoLith's Avatar
photoLith photoLith is online now
Ex Houstonian
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Oakland, Pittsburgh
Posts: 11,018
Quote:
Originally Posted by niwell View Post
Sometimes extremely interesting independent stores and best "authentic" restaurants are in the suburbs.
Traitor
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #34  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2017, 7:03 PM
niwell's Avatar
niwell niwell is offline
you go on ahead
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Parkdale, Toronto
Posts: 7,304
Quote:
Originally Posted by photoLith View Post
Traitor
I bike for 45 minutes on my single speed to get there so I can still claim my inner-city hipster cred
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #35  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2017, 7:20 PM
tascalisa's Avatar
tascalisa tascalisa is offline
Discovered in 1593
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Vulcan's Empire
Posts: 3,177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parkway View Post
Gentrification is an unstoppable force. Saying you can do something about it as arrogant as pledging that you can stop continental drift or change the weather. The best you can really do is mitigate the negative consequences i.e. displacement.
You read my mind...
__________________
SSP Alabama Metros: Birmingham (City Compilation) - Huntsville - Mobile - Montgomery - Tuscaloosa - Daphne-Fairhope - Decatur

SSP Alabama Universities: Alabama - UAB - Alabama State
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #36  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2017, 7:31 PM
Chef's Avatar
Chef Chef is offline
Paradise Island
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 1,443
I would never want to live in a high density city. I think 15,000 to 25,000 ppsm is the ideal density for a neighborhood. It is dense enough to be walkable, but not so dense that using a car is a pain.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #37  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2017, 7:36 PM
pdxtex's Avatar
pdxtex pdxtex is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 2,247
Quote:
Originally Posted by jigglysquishy View Post
I'd be curious on the math on that once you factor in depreciation/ maintenance/ insurance/gas
a car is an appliance. you should never consider it from a depreciation stand point. if you are worried about how much money you will get back when you sell it, you spent too much money in the first place or should should either get a used one or lease something cheap. a transit pass in portland is 1100. i hybrid commute. either by bicycle or car, bus as last resort. ive never done a yearly cost of it all but my insurance is about 800, parking is free on the street, and i usually spend about 300 in maintenance. the rest is gas which might be 600 bucks a year so ill just say it costs twice as much for me to own a car than take the bus. but the intangible benefits are worth it. if i get sick from the bus, well i might be out of work for a few days. my time is worth alot to me in terms of satisfaction value. if im sitting at shitty, rainy bus stop at 7:30 in the morning, im pissed off and will possibly be less productive at work. plus i cant put a kayak on top of the bus on the weekends and go for a paddle. i dont absolutely rely on it, but i do appreciate it. if i had a job that was 30 minutes away id move closer to it. but by driving, i also avoid neer do wells, long wait time at rainy bus stops and sneezing old ladies so ive chosen my battle and will deal with some traffic. ill take my sweet 2002 ford taurus over the bus any day, but my preference is a bicycle. to avoid all of the other things i mentioned, id pay even more so it equals out.
__________________
Portland!! Where young people go to retire.

Last edited by pdxtex; Apr 30, 2017 at 3:20 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #38  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2017, 1:20 AM
Tosin007 Tosin007 is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: The Greatest Outdoor Show on Earth!
Posts: 1,378
Seattle Traffic is excellent.
Portland has never been weird.
New York City is too small.
Los Angeles is too cold.
Chicago is the safest on the Southside.
Houston sprawl is very well controlled.
Atlanta doesn't have that many Nigerians.
Miami doesn't have enough beaches.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #39  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2017, 2:13 AM
chris08876's Avatar
chris08876 chris08876 is online now
D1, D2, D3, D4, D5, TAAR1
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: New Jersey - Somerset County
Posts: 18,720
I'll take a stab at it...

1) Los Angeles is like Phoenix
2) Chicago pizza is bland compared to NY pizza
3) London is just a bunch of small villages combined
4) San Francisco's citizens are all flower power children
5) NY Giants are a superior football team compared to the Philly Eagles
6) Baltimore is like Detroit



Although #2 and #5 are just scientific facts.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #40  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2017, 2:48 AM
BrownTown BrownTown is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by Private Dick View Post
Affordability is another topic. Lack of zoning laws does not translate to poor people being able to afford to live there.
Well, the opposite is certainly true. Too much zoning makes prices go sky high. Just look at San Francisco. They desperately need to tear down all those crappy row houses but somehow they're considered hallowed ground and now you have to pay a million bucks just to live in the city as a result.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 2:04 AM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.