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  #41  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2017, 8:17 PM
Jonesy55 Jonesy55 is offline
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In addition to the examples already given of Glasgow and London, most larger industrial cities in the UK saw big falls from peaks in the inter-war years up to the 1980s/90s. In all cases there was also a big corresponding increase in the populations of new suburbs outside the city limits as family sizes fell and the worst inner-city slums were torn down. I don't think any urban area including both city proper and suburbs saw a decline of such scale though.
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  #42  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2017, 8:29 PM
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Thinking of urban/metro areas, is there any British city that saw a major population decline?
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  #43  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2017, 8:59 PM
ThePhun1 ThePhun1 is offline
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Originally Posted by yuriandrade View Post
New York population and GDP share is smaller now than it was 80 years ago. They didn't have competitors like Los Angeles, San Francisco, Dallas, Houston and Atlanta back then. It was them alone, with Chicago in a far away 2nd place.

This new hype around New York has five years ago only. The history of city in the XX century is a history of relative decline over the whole period.
I conceded everything you said. New York is still the place to be and make it big. Other than a slump a few decades ago, nothing has changed except there are a lot more immitators.
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  #44  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2017, 9:19 PM
the urban politician the urban politician is offline
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I conceded everything you said. New York is still the place to be and make it big. Other than a slump a few decades ago, nothing has changed except there are a lot more immitators.
Well, not really.

In 1917 New York had absolutely zero competition. Sure there was Chicago but it was still a far second place.

Fast forward to now and there are a lot of places where you can make it "big" without being in New York. And I'm not just talking about in the US, but internationally. But just in the US you have LA and Hollywood, the Bay Area and tech, Houston and energy, etc. In 1917 none of these options existed. If you were trying to be big you were basically only in New York, and in some cases Chicago.
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  #45  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2017, 9:44 PM
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Originally Posted by yuriandrade View Post
Thinking of urban/metro areas, is there any British city that saw a major population decline?
Is there any in the Western world? I doubt it. No U.S. metro has had a major population decline, and the U.S. has some of the most transient populace on earth.

Even Detroit (metro) is bigger than, say 50 years ago.
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  #46  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2017, 9:47 PM
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I researched this exact question for a Sporcle quiz, and in the United States the winner for city population drop is Highland Park, Michigan.

A cutoff of 50,000 at the peak qualifies a surprisingly large number of Rust Belt cities.

Updating to 2015 estimates:
City..........Peak..........2015........Percentage Drop

Highland Park, MI.............52,959..........10,949.......79.3%
Johnstown, PA................19,966...........67,327......70.3%
East St. Louis, IL.............82,366...........26,790......67.5%
McKeesport, PA...............55,355...........19,453......64.9%
Detroit, MI.....................1,849,568.......677,116.....63.4%
St. Louis, MO..................856,796.........315,685.....63.2%
Youngstown, OH..............170,002.........64,628.......62.0%
Hamtramck, MI................56,268...........22,002.......60.9%
Cleveland, OH.................914,808.........388,072......57.6%
Gary, IN.........................178,320.........77,156.......56.7%
Buffalo, NY.....................580,132.........258,071......55.5%
Wheeling, WV..................61,659...........27,648......55.2%
Pittsburgh, PA.................676,806.........304,391.....55.0%
Wilkes-Barre, PA..............86,626..........40,780.......52.9%
Niagara Falls, NY..............102,394.........48,916.......52.2%
East Chicago, IN..............57,669...........28,699......50.2%
Flint, MI.........................196,940.........98,310.......50.1%
Saginaw, MI....................98,265..........49,347.......49.8%
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  #47  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2017, 9:56 PM
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Highland Park is just an inner-city Detroit neighborhood that happens to be a separate jurisdiction (because it was Chrysler HQ and they didn't want Detroit to get all the tax revenue). I have no doubt there are neighborhoods with greater population loss, in Detroit and elsewhere.
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  #48  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2017, 10:02 PM
balletomane balletomane is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiSoxRox View Post
I researched this exact question for a Sporcle quiz, and in the United States the winner for city population drop is Highland Park, Michigan.

A cutoff of 50,000 at the peak qualifies a surprisingly large number of Rust Belt cities.

Updating to 2015 estimates:
City..........Peak..........2015........Percentage Drop

Highland Park, MI.............52,959..........10,949.......79.3%
Johnstown, PA................19,966...........67,327......70.3%
East St. Louis, IL.............82,366...........26,790......67.5%
McKeesport, PA...............55,355...........19,453......64.9%
Detroit, MI.....................1,849,568.......677,116.....63.4%
St. Louis, MO..................856,796.........315,685.....63.2%
Youngstown, OH..............170,002.........64,628.......62.0%
Hamtramck, MI................56,268...........22,002.......60.9%
Cleveland, OH.................914,808.........388,072......57.6%
Gary, IN.........................178,320.........77,156.......56.7%
Buffalo, NY.....................580,132.........258,071......55.5%
Wheeling, WV..................61,659...........27,648......55.2%
Pittsburgh, PA.................676,806.........304,391.....55.0%
Wilkes-Barre, PA..............86,626..........40,780.......52.9%
Niagara Falls, NY..............102,394.........48,916.......52.2%
East Chicago, IN..............57,669...........28,699......50.2%
Flint, MI.........................196,940.........98,310.......50.1%
Saginaw, MI....................98,265..........49,347.......49.8%
Thanks for the list! Its surprising to me that Canada doesn't have even one city that peaked above 50,000 and has lost over 50% of its population. Unless in the event of a major natural disaster, I don't foresee us having one in the future, except maybe Fort McMurray if the world transitions away from fossil fuels.
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  #49  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2017, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by balletomane View Post
Thanks for the list! Its surprising to me that Canada doesn't have even one city that peaked above 50,000 and has lost over 50% of its population. Unless in the event of a major natural disaster, I don't foresee us having one in the future, except maybe Fort McMurray if the world transitions away from fossil fuels.
Canada doesn't have municipalities with tiny city limits, nor does it have the historical black-white issues. Every city on that list has as least one such issue, and most have both.
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  #50  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2017, 10:12 PM
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Johnstown's metro area (Cambria County) peaked at 213,459 in 1940, and the 2016 estimates have it at 134,732 for a drop of 36.9%. That looks like the worst drop for a metro area in the US, with Wheeling being a contender at 29.8% off its (also 1940) peak.

For metro areas over half a million, the modern Scranton/Wilkes-Barre area peaked at 771,023 in 1930 and is at 555,225 in 2016, a 27.9% drop.
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  #51  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2017, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Canada doesn't have municipalities with tiny city limits, nor does it have the historical black-white issues. Every city on that list has as least one such issue, and most have both.
Canada has lots of municipalities over 50,000 people with tiny city limits. New Westminster has over 70,000 people and covers just 6 square miles. The city of North Vancouver has over 50,000 people and is just 4.6 square miles.

Youre wrong.

Last edited by NorthernDancer; Apr 30, 2017 at 10:50 PM.
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  #52  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2017, 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Even Detroit (metro) is bigger than, say 50 years ago.
Pittsburgh peaked in the 1960 Census and declined ever since. Buffalo in the 1970, also declined in every single one after that. Cleveland, if I'm not mistake, also peaked in 1970, but unlike the other two, they went up and down on the following Census.

Outisde the US, from the top of um head, Genoa went from 1.1 million in the 1970's to 880,000 today.
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  #53  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2017, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthernDancer View Post
Canada has lots of municipalities over 50,000 people with tiny city limits. New Westminster has over 70,000 people and covers just 6 square miles. The city of North Vancouver has over 50,000 people and is just 4.6 square miles.

Youre wrong.
Wrong again. New Westimster is a new suburb, and has zero to do with what we're talking about. It's only about 3,000 miles west of the topic.

Again, Canada doesn't have the smaller city limits, and doesn't have the black-white issues, so there would be no reason to expect similar demographic trends.

U.S. cities with Canadian city profiles, not surprisingly, have similar demographic trends as Canadian cities.
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  #54  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2017, 11:16 PM
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Originally Posted by yuriandrade View Post
Pittsburgh peaked in the 1960 Census and declined ever since. Buffalo in the 1970, also declined in every single one after that. Cleveland, if I'm not mistake, also peaked in 1970, but unlike the other two, they went up and down on the following Census.
Yes, but they are more or less stagnant.

Pittsburgh, Cleveland and Buffalo are not that far off their peak populations. Maybe they've lost 10% of population over 50 years.
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  #55  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2017, 11:23 PM
NorthernDancer NorthernDancer is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Wrong again. New Westimster is a new suburb, and has zero to do with what we're talking about.
You said:

Quote:
Canada doesn't have MUNICIPALITIES with tiny city limits
I responded with two examples of Canadian cities (not just municipalities) with tiny city limits. And whoever told you New Westminster is a new suburb is a fucking idiot. Can you please link to your source. New Westminster is older than Vancouver itself. It was founded in 1858, and was the original capital of British Columbia before Victoria. Vancouver wasnt founded until 1886.

You made a factually untrue statement, and I exposed you on it. Now youre trying to claim that its now what was being discussed. And saying that New Westminster is a new suburb is fucking moronic. It is not.



Quote:
Again, Canada doesn't have the smaller city limits
Yes it does. I just gave two examples of Canadian cities with smaller city limits. One of which was founded in 1858, making it extremely old by Canadian standards. You claimed that it is a new suburb, but you are wrong again.

Another Canadian city with tiny city limits is White Rock. It is only 1.98 square miles.
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  #56  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2017, 11:38 PM
NorthernDancer NorthernDancer is offline
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Educate yourself Crawford, lol.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Westminster

Quote:
New Westminster is a historically important city in the Lower Mainland region of British Columbia, Canada, and is a member municipality of the Greater Vancouver Regional District. It was founded by Major-General Richard Moody as the capital of the new-born Colony of British Columbia in 1858, and continued in that role until the Mainland and Island Colonies were merged in 1866, and was the Mainland's largest city from that year until it was passed in population by Vancouver during the first decade of the 20th Century.
Now please share the link where you read that it is a new suburb. ROFLOL! We know that you didnt just make it up. You wouldnt do something like that.

New Westminster population (2016): 70,996
New Westminster area: 6.03 sq mi
New Westminster founded in 1858

Looking forward to you telling me that these facts are wrong.
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  #57  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2017, 11:51 PM
balletomane balletomane is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Wrong again. New Westimster is a new suburb, and has zero to do with what we're talking about. It's only about 3,000 miles west of the topic.

Again, Canada doesn't have the smaller city limits, and doesn't have the black-white issues, so there would be no reason to expect similar demographic trends.

U.S. cities with Canadian city profiles, not surprisingly, have similar demographic trends as Canadian cities.
Though its not on the same level that the black-white issues in the United States were/are at, there are some cities in Canada with very large Aboriginal populations, who are the marginalized and oppressed group in Canada, akin to African-Americans in the US. There are four metros in Canada that have over 10% Aboriginal population, Winnipeg, Saskatoon, Regina and Thunder Bay.
MacLean's recently dubbed Winnipeg "Canada's Most Racist City", a sad attempt at sensationalizing an unquantifiable, but pressing issue.

http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/w...-at-its-worst/
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  #58  
Old Posted May 1, 2017, 12:01 AM
NorthernDancer NorthernDancer is offline
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Originally Posted by balletomane View Post
Though its not on the same level that the black-white issues in the United States were/are at, there are some cities in Canada with very large Aboriginal populations, who are the marginalized and oppressed group in Canada, akin to African-Americans in the US. There are four metros in Canada that have over 10% Aboriginal population, Winnipeg, Saskatoon, Regina and Thunder Bay.
MacLean's recently dubbed Winnipeg "Canada's Most Racist City", a sad attempt at sensationalizing an unquantifiable, but pressing issue.

http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/w...-at-its-worst/
He's clueless. He said that Canada doesn't have municipalities with tiny city limits. I named two Canadian cities over 50,000 people with tiny city limits (you can fact check this), and he said I was "wrong again".

He said that New Westminster is a "new suburb" when it's 28 years older than Vancouver itself, and was larger than Vancouver for decades. That is one of the most stupid statements I've read in my life.

LOL.
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  #59  
Old Posted May 1, 2017, 1:20 AM
Docere Docere is offline
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Originally Posted by balletomane View Post
Though its not on the same level that the black-white issues in the United States were/are at, there are some cities in Canada with very large Aboriginal populations, who are the marginalized and oppressed group in Canada, akin to African-Americans in the US. There are four metros in Canada that have over 10% Aboriginal population, Winnipeg, Saskatoon, Regina and Thunder Bay.
MacLean's recently dubbed Winnipeg "Canada's Most Racist City", a sad attempt at sensationalizing an unquantifiable, but pressing issue.

http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/w...-at-its-worst/
And the amalgamation of Winnipeg and its suburbs in the 1970s has masked the decline in inner city Winnipeg. Of course Winnipeg as a city/metro as a whole has grown since then.
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  #60  
Old Posted May 1, 2017, 2:04 AM
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Originally Posted by yuriandrade View Post
Pittsburgh peaked in the 1960 Census and declined ever since. Buffalo in the 1970, also declined in every single one after that. Cleveland, if I'm not mistake, also peaked in 1970, but unlike the other two, they went up and down on the following Census.

Outisde the US, from the top of um head, Genoa went from 1.1 million in the 1970's to 880,000 today.
Remind me of two more cases in the West:

- Eastern German urban areas all watch their population decline from their peak;

- Montevideo's population is more or less stagnant since the 1970's (EDIT: considering the neighbouring Canelones, they've grown a bit).
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