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  #81  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2017, 7:38 PM
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Originally Posted by saffronleaf View Post
I wouldn't just call it cultural quirks, but yea, it's not as different as say, a family coming from straight from Nigeria and settling in a small town in the US.

But there are differences beyond quirks. African Americans tend to be more religious and socially conservative; more likely to embrace a role for government to play in society (rather than some kind of rugged frontiersman individualism); in sports they have a greater interest in basketball relative to other ethnic groups; in cuisine they have soul food and cajun food; linguistically they have a sociolect (African American Vernacular English) that they use among themselves; in terms of religion, they predominantly attend Black churches; in terms of music there are genres they are more interested in and more represented in than others, etc.

It's only in places where there is no sizable African American community (like, say, Denver) where they are basically White Americans with a different skin color. The kind of extreme assimilation you find among some immigrants over a generation or two when they don't have any sizable community of their own to help retain their own culture to some degree. But in places where they have a sizable community, their cultural distinctiveness flourishes. Places like Atlanta are pretty distinctive.

I've lived in cities with sizable African American populations (e.g., St. Louis) and cities with virtually no African American population (e.g., Denver), and I think African Americans contribute to the diversity of a city's overall culture. I don't see them as White Americans with a different skin color.
When people discuss this topic I don't think they see African-Americans as "White Americans with a different skin colour", but simply as "Americans point final".

"White Americans" as defined by most people aren't totally homogenous either, and there are many variances within that huge group as well. (White Manhattanites and descendants of Boston Brahmins are not as keen on Nascar as Southerners, to quote just one example.)

In spite of all this, it can be said that the human group that is American-born (or even "raised") has a bunch of cultural characteristics in common that cut across almost all demographics.

African-Americans still know Jimmy Kimmel even though he's white. White Americans are familiar with hiphop and star players in the NBA.
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  #82  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2017, 7:58 PM
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Originally Posted by saffronleaf View Post
It's only in places where there is no sizable African American community (like, say, Denver) where they are basically White Americans with a different skin color. The kind of extreme assimilation you find among some immigrants over a generation or two when they don't have any sizable community of their own to help retain their own culture to some degree. But in places where they have a sizable community, their cultural distinctiveness flourishes. Places like Atlanta are pretty distinctive.

I've lived in cities with sizable African American populations (e.g., St. Louis) and cities with virtually no African American population (e.g., Denver), and I think African Americans contribute to the diversity of a city's overall culture. I don't see them as White Americans with a different skin color.
Denver is about 10% black or African-American. While that is not large by US standards, it's still notably larger than the relative share of those who are black or of African descent in pretty much every Canadian city and town outside of a few GTA suburbs (Ajax, Brampton), and Shelburne, Nova Scotia, all of which only have percentages in the teens.

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When people discuss this topic I don't think they see African-Americans as "White Americans with a different skin colour", but simply as "Americans point final".

"White Americans" as defined by most people aren't totally homogenous either, and there are many variances within that huge group as well. (White Manhattanites and descendants of Boston Brahmins are not as keen on Nascar as Southerners, to quote just one example.)

In spite of all this, it can be said that the human group that is American-born (or even "raised") has a bunch of cultural characteristics in common that cut across almost all demographics.

African-Americans still know Jimmy Kimmel even though he's white. White Americans are familiar with hiphop and star players in the NBA.
But then no American group is homogenous, and you can't single out any one group as being more or less "typically" American than another as long as they are American citizens and have spent their lives there. Every race-American is America final then, even ones that are very small in population (eg. say Arab Americans, or native Hawaiians). An Amish person living in a Midwestern farming village, a Japanese-American living in Hawaii who never visited the mainland or an Alaska native living in a remote town, all have cultural features that are apart from "mainstream" American culture but are not foreign either.
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  #83  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2017, 8:07 PM
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African-Americans still know Jimmy Kimmel even though he's white. White Americans are familiar with hiphop and star players in the NBA.
Internationally, many non-Americans consume American media too.

If a Canadian watches more American media than Canadian media, does that make him or her more American than Canadian?

What about Americans that go out of their way to consume world media (eg. BBC radio, Eurovision, or Bollywood movies or K-pop or whatever). If an American spends more hours in a day watching or listening to these than homegrown media, does it make him/her less American?

Alternatively, if individuals in an ethnic community such as the Amish chooses to avoid watching American TV or mass media, does that make them less American?

There are some people who think that civic nationalism is the way to go and the sum totality of all citizens/nationals of a country have an equal claim to "belonging to that country", and no one has to go out of their way to do anything besides living in that country and contributing to that society as a citizen, as opposed to the idea that there has to be a common shared culture, be it media, food, dress, other forms of culture etc., where some individuals, regardless of whether foreign-born or native-born partaking in it makes you belong and rejecting it makes you "un-(insert name of nationality here)".
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  #84  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2017, 8:24 PM
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Honestly, anyone who speaks French with anything resembling a Quebec accent will definitely be considered "one of us".
I guess I mean in the sense of the term Québécois de souche, but I get what you're saying.
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  #85  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2017, 8:26 PM
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It's unclear to me what point you're trying to make. If any.

Clarification: this message is for Capsicum.
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  #86  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2017, 9:52 PM
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When people discuss this topic I don't think they see African-Americans as "White Americans with a different skin colour", but simply as "Americans point final".

"White Americans" as defined by most people aren't totally homogenous either, and there are many variances within that huge group as well. (White Manhattanites and descendants of Boston Brahmins are not as keen on Nascar as Southerners, to quote just one example.)

In spite of all this, it can be said that the human group that is American-born (or even "raised") has a bunch of cultural characteristics in common that cut across almost all demographics.

African-Americans still know Jimmy Kimmel even though he's white. White Americans are familiar with hiphop and star players in the NBA.
Yea, of course, anyone who has lived in America for an extended period of time will watch a bit of the NBA and Jimmy Kimmel -- heck, given globalization and how globalization is largely just Americanization, a large percentage of people in India, for example, who have cable TV will have watched some NBA and even some Kimmel.

But I think it's wrong to deny that African Americans have a culture distinct from White Americans. There's a bit of two solitudes thing going on with White America and Black America. They have different histories that inform their current circumstances. They are treated differently by people and institutions. They have different political and social values.

But I agree, the difference is not to the same extent as, say, recent South Asian immigrants to the US and White Americans.
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  #87  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2017, 10:04 PM
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Everyone who is interested in this subject should read this book by Charles Taylor:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sources_of_the_Self

A person's identity is in fact a series of concentric circles, in which you have of course family, nationhood and many other forms of identity based on race, religion, sexual orientation, fandoms, interests, etc.
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  #88  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2017, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by wg_flamip View Post
Although the dynamics are different than in Montreal, both Barcelona and Kiev spring to mind. If you include smaller cities, Gibraltar seems somewhat similar as well, while daily life (and a majority of people) in Maltese cities operates in three languages. On the other hand, Nicosia would represent the most extreme example of a "two solitudes"-type bilingual city.
Amsterdam and the Nordic capitals actually have a pretty strong duality going on between the national language and English.

Although English doesn't have the presence in "officialdom" that it has in Montreal, it could be argued that it's fairly strong in "officiousdom" in A'dam/Nordics.
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  #89  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2017, 4:51 AM
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Originally Posted by begratto View Post
Honestly, anyone who speaks French with anything resembling a Quebec accent will definitely be considered "one of us".
Franco-Ontarians have a similar accent but aren't always considered to be "one of us" in Quebec but they are depending on the person, group and situation.

I have francophone friends who can speak with a Quebec accent when in Quebec to fit it. Others will be thought of as anglophones when in Quebec because they speak franglais and/or use many English words and terminologies.
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  #90  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2017, 5:19 AM
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That raises an interesting point -- are there examples of places in the US where black and white Americans "politically" belong to the same culture? If so, which place would come the closest? I'd imagine examples where black and white Americans are both equally left wing are more common than places where black and white Americans are both equally right wing.
Left-wing examples are found in a number of large cities. Not the entire cities themselves but often neighbourhoods within them. Or often the city itself but not the surrounding suburban cities. Much of Los Angeles, San Francisco, New York City, Detroit, Boston, Miami just to name some. Also parts of some states as well but I can't think of examples off the top of my head.

Right-wing examples: definitely much harder to think of any. Maybe somewhere in Louisiana?
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  #91  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2017, 11:58 AM
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I have francophone friends who can speak with a Quebec accent when in Quebec to fit it. .
For some of the most francophone of Franco-Ontarians from the north their natural accent is extremely close to the Quebec accent. If they're up on francophone culture often the only cues they aren't from Quebec are administrative in nature: they can't refer to their CEGEP years, talk about "12e année" instead of "secondaire 5", may not know what a "carte soleil" is, etc.

Though with each passing generation this demographic of Franco-Ontarians who fit in fairly seamlessly in Quebec like this is fading fast.
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  #92  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2017, 12:04 PM
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Others will be thought of as anglophones when in Quebec because they speak franglais and/or use many English words and terminologies.
Even if they don't speak franglais a lot of them to Quebec ears sound like anglophones who know how to speak French.

An anglo from Quebec like Tom Mulcair has a more familiar accent in French to a Québécois than many Franco-Ontarians do.

When she first moved to Quebec many people here would switch to (often subpar) English on my wife because they thought she was anglo. (She is a francophone from NE Ontario.)

Her accent has since faded and it almost never happens that people pick up on the fact she isn't originally from Quebec these days.
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  #93  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2017, 12:09 PM
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Franco-Ontarians have a similar accent but aren't always considered to be "one of us" in Quebec but they are depending on the person, group and situation.
There are a number of factors that enter into it including attitude and behaviour.

If you bitch at Québécois Gen Xers because they make references to Rock et Belles Oreilles sketches that you can't relate to... then sure you're reducing your chances of being accepted into their "us".

My wife and I go with the flow and are accepted as Québécois and always have been right from the start. And it's not as if we spout that "Quebec rules and Ontario sucks".

We just behave normally.

Sometimes people we are close to will forget we're not from Quebec (even though they know full well) and slip up and ask us stuff like which cheminement we took in CEGEP* or something like that...

*CEGEP does not exist for francophones outside Quebec.
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  #94  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2017, 3:42 AM
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Left-wing examples are found in a number of large cities. Not the entire cities themselves but often neighbourhoods within them. Or often the city itself but not the surrounding suburban cities. Much of Los Angeles, San Francisco, New York City, Detroit, Boston, Miami just to name some. Also parts of some states as well but I can't think of examples off the top of my head.

Right-wing examples: definitely much harder to think of any. Maybe somewhere in Louisiana?
While you're right that both Whites and Blacks in, for example, SF, NYC and Boston are left-wing in the sense that they support the Democrats, there are still noteworthy differences between them. Blacks tend to be more religious and socially conservative. They generally don't identify with the 'hippie left', pushing LGBTQRSTUVWXYZ rights, buying Priuses, etc. Blacks' support for the Democrats stems more from liking social programs and feeling (IMO accurately) that many Republicans don't like the Black community.
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  #95  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2017, 4:33 AM
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Even if they don't speak franglais a lot of them to Quebec ears sound like anglophones who know how to speak French.

An anglo from Quebec like Tom Mulcair has a more familiar accent in French to a Québécois than many Franco-Ontarians do.

When she first moved to Quebec many people here would switch to (often subpar) English on my wife because they thought she was anglo. (She is a francophone from NE Ontario.)

Her accent has since faded and it almost never happens that people pick up on the fact she isn't originally from Quebec these days.
Yep, I know some people in the same situation. Franco-Ontarians who didn't at first fit in but eventually did.

Last edited by Loco101; Nov 11, 2017 at 8:44 PM.
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  #96  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2017, 4:41 AM
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For some of the most francophone of Franco-Ontarians from the north their natural accent is extremely close to the Quebec accent. If they're up on francophone culture often the only cues they aren't from Quebec are administrative in nature: they can't refer to their CEGEP years, talk about "12e année" instead of "secondaire 5", may not know what a "carte soleil" is, etc.

Though with each passing generation this demographic of Franco-Ontarians who fit in fairly seamlessly in Quebec like this is fading fast.
Yes, you are absolutely correct. I had to search what "carte soleil" is as I haven't heard of what that is. It's Quebec's health card. I do know what RAMQ is as I've come across it working for the federal government. But I see that Quebec's health card has a sun on it, haha. In Ontario, francophones will call ours la "carte santé" and most Ontarians call it "health card."
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  #97  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2017, 5:09 AM
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There are a number of factors that enter into it including attitude and behaviour.

If you bitch at Québécois Gen Xers because they make references to Rock et Belles Oreilles sketches that you can't relate to... then sure you're reducing your chances of being accepted into their "us".

My wife and I go with the flow and are accepted as Québécois and always have been right from the start. And it's not as if we spout that "Quebec rules and Ontario sucks".

We just behave normally.

Sometimes people we are close to will forget we're not from Quebec (even though they know full well) and slip up and ask us stuff like which cheminement we took in CEGEP* or something like that...

*CEGEP does not exist for francophones outside Quebec.
If Franco-Ontarians had full control over education I'm sure that there would eventually be an Ontarian version of CEGEP here as there is a more positive focus on teenagers. I like how there is confidence in younger people in Quebec and somewhat in francophone Ontario that you don't find in English-speaking North America.

When visiting Quebec, I have often been mistaken for an Anglo-Quebecker. Often they assume I live in Montreal. When I say I live in Northeastern Ontario they always seem to be impressed that I'm anglophone but can converse in French and that I'm willing to speak French. You wouldn't believe how many Quebeckers I encounter from all regions within the province who have relatives who live in Timmins or in towns in the region.
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  #98  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2017, 5:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Even if they don't speak franglais a lot of them to Quebec ears sound like anglophones who know how to speak French.

An anglo from Quebec like Tom Mulcair has a more familiar accent in French to a Québécois than many Franco-Ontarians do.

When she first moved to Quebec many people here would switch to (often subpar) English on my wife because they thought she was anglo. (She is a francophone from NE Ontario.)

Her accent has since faded and it almost never happens that people pick up on the fact she isn't originally from Quebec these days.
Strange that is. I have a few franco-Ontarians (Kapuskasing, Hearst) as colleagues, who only speak French at home. They have said the same thing, in regards to their travels to Quebec. I guess I feel less awkward about the "Heh???" I sometimes get with my slightly Anglo-accent-tinted French, when I am "back home" in Quebec.
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  #99  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2017, 4:25 AM
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Aboriginal population of the Prairie cities:

Winnipeg 84,305 12.2%
Edmonton 50,280 5.5%
Calgary 35,195 2.9%
Saskatoon 27,310 11.3%
Regina 20,925 9.9%
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  #100  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2017, 8:51 AM
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Europe has a bunch of multi-lingual countries, but to my knowledge at least, I can't think of any multi-lingual cities in the way that Montreal is. It seems you either get Quebec City or Toronto-type monolingual dualities there.

Montreal is probably one of only a small handful of cities in the world where locals can effortlessly switch between their two coexisting languages.



Strangely, Copenhagen and Stockholm are almost becoming this way with English, although for very different reasons than Montreal. It's about as easy to function as a unilingual anglophone* in CPH as is MTL, with a few different points of emphasis (government stuff is Danish only, but there is no historical angst over the code-shifting, for example).

*Det gør jeg selvfølgelig ikke, jeg kan taler Dansk... et Français aussi
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