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  #61  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2018, 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
More likely just a way to avoid post-war anti-German sentiment.
That's exactly what it was. It was easy enough to say "I'm Dutch" when your ancestors in North America most likely dated to colonial times.

Some Dutch Loyalists did come to Ontario, though not as many as German Loyalists.

Since these people were virtually all English-speaking, multigenerational Canadians by the 20th century, it's impossible to decipher who among the English-speakers were "really" Dutch vs. "really" German.

Note however that German origin response in Ontario collapsed among the most dispersed and assimilated elements. In the "German triangle" that included Waterloo, Perth, Huron, Bruce and Grey counties (and where many Germans immigrated in the 19th century), German ancestry numbers held up in post-WWI censuses.

In addition, Lutheranism remained strong in the Waterloo/German triangle area, a marker of German ethnic identity.
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  #62  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2018, 1:09 AM
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That's exactly what it was. It was easy enough to say "I'm Dutch" when your ancestors in North America most likely dated to colonial times.

Some Dutch Loyalists did come to Ontario, though not as many as German Loyalists.

Since these people were virtually all English-speaking, multigenerational Canadians by the 20th century, it's impossible to decipher who among the English-speakers were "really" Dutch vs. "really" German.

Note however that German origin response in Ontario collapsed among the most dispersed and assimilated elements. In the "German triangle" that included Waterloo, Perth, Huron, Bruce and Grey counties (and where many Germans immigrated in the 19th century), German ancestry numbers held up in post-WWI censuses.
I'd guess because people in the non-triangle counties were more likely to have multiple backgrounds and, being somewhat less proud of their German side after the war, tended to identify a different part of their ancestry when answering the "origin" question in 1921. A large percentage of Ontario could theoretically have claimed German ancestry if that had been fashionable - many if not most Loyalist families are partly German, including mine. There was a lot of discretion in terms of what ancestry you chose to mention.
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  #63  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2018, 1:46 AM
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A typical German Canadian in Waterloo County in the 1920s and 1930s was probably was a third generation Canadian fully of German ancestry, belonged to the Lutheran Church, and either grew up speaking or had some familiarity with German, but spoke English at home and in their daily lives.

In Eastern Ontario, people who had German ancestry belonged to the United Church, had German as one of many ancestries and their ancestors were probably unable to speak German in 1850, let alone in 1900 or 1930.

One thing to note as well is the German and Dutch Loyalists seemed to be clustered in the same places - the Quinte region and in Dundas and Stormont counties. Often their ancestors came from the Hudson Valley in New York.
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  #64  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2018, 1:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
That's exactly what it was. It was easy enough to say "I'm Dutch" when your ancestors in North America most likely dated to colonial times.

Some Dutch Loyalists did come to Ontario, though not as many as German Loyalists.

Since these people were virtually all English-speaking, multigenerational Canadians by the 20th century, it's impossible to decipher who among the English-speakers were "really" Dutch vs. "really" German.

Note however that German origin response in Ontario collapsed among the most dispersed and assimilated elements. In the "German triangle" that included Waterloo, Perth, Huron, Bruce and Grey counties (and where many Germans immigrated in the 19th century), German ancestry numbers held up in post-WWI censuses.

In addition, Lutheranism remained strong in the Waterloo/German triangle area, a marker of German ethnic identity.
That makes sense. K(Berlin)-W never really recovered its "German-ness" after the war, but it was never a matter of shame. Strength in numbers.
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  #65  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2018, 1:51 AM
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Reflecting the different eras of immigration between the East and West (pre-Confederation vs. post-1875), while around 60% of Canadians of German or German-speaking origin lived in 1931 lived in the West, 75% of German speakers did.
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  #66  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2018, 2:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
The switching away from German to Dutch and Russian is quite evident if you compare the 1911 and 1921 censuses (i.e. WWI).

Manitoba:

German 34,530; 19,444
Dutch 2,853; 20,728
Russian 8,841; 14,009

Saskatchewan:

German 68,628; 68,202
Russian 18,413; 45,343
Dutch 2,684; 16,639

Alberta:

German 36,862; 35,337
Russian 9,412; 21,212
Dutch 2,951; 9,490
It's not necessarily just German switching to Russian though. You also still have plenty of immigration during those periods. Very few ethnic Russians actually immigrated here; mixed in with the "Russian" count will be Ukrainians.

Historical records in Canada have some oddities when considering Ukrainians. Except for a brief period around WWI, there was no country of Ukraine to speak of, so it was fairly rare for "Ukrainian" to be used/allowed as an officially accepted identity. Ukrainians were often noted as "Polish", "Austrian", or "Russian" depending on which country they immigrated from. This was also the time period when Ukrainians themselves started to use "Ukrainian" as their ethnicity; previously Ruthenian was often used and can be found in some old records in Canada. Nowadays, Ruthenian (or Rusyn) only refers to a small subset of people mainly concentrated around the Polish/Ukrainian/Slovakian borders.

Sidenote: Ruthenian comes from the latin name for "Rus" aka Kyivan Rus, the East Slavic Kingdom centred around Kyiv in the 9th-13th Centuries, and is also where Russia got its current name after changing from "Moskovy".
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  #67  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2018, 3:13 AM
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One thing to note as well is the German and Dutch Loyalists seemed to be clustered in the same places - the Quinte region and in Dundas and Stormont counties. Often their ancestors came from the Hudson Valley in New York.
Yes, that was mine. From the Hudson Valley, were members of the Kings Royal Regiment of New York, and seem to have settled in the Township of Matilda, Dundas County. There were many German names that became common "Old Ontario" names like Loucks or Locke, Bouck, Merkley, Swerdfager and many variants. Ours was Grauberger, which was anglicized in a variety of ways.
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  #68  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2018, 3:16 AM
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It's not necessarily just German switching to Russian though. You also still have plenty of immigration during those periods. Very few ethnic Russians actually immigrated here; mixed in with the "Russian" count will be Ukrainians.

Historical records in Canada have some oddities when considering Ukrainians. Except for a brief period around WWI, there was no country of Ukraine to speak of, so it was fairly rare for "Ukrainian" to be used/allowed as an officially accepted identity. Ukrainians were often noted as "Polish", "Austrian", or "Russian" depending on which country they immigrated from. This was also the time period when Ukrainians themselves started to use "Ukrainian" as their ethnicity; previously Ruthenian was often used and can be found in some old records in Canada. Nowadays, Ruthenian (or Rusyn) only refers to a small subset of people mainly concentrated around the Polish/Ukrainian/Slovakian borders.

Sidenote: Ruthenian comes from the latin name for "Rus" aka Kyivan Rus, the East Slavic Kingdom centred around Kyiv in the 9th-13th Centuries, and is also where Russia got its current name after changing from "Moskovy".
They were sometimes called Ruthenian latterly but most often they were called Austrian, which confuses people starting out on their family histories. I've had to explain that that doesn't mean that their family came from Vienna.
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  #69  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2018, 3:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Nathan View Post
It's not necessarily just German switching to Russian though. You also still have plenty of immigration during those periods. Very few ethnic Russians actually immigrated here; mixed in with the "Russian" count will be Ukrainians.

Historical records in Canada have some oddities when considering Ukrainians. Except for a brief period around WWI, there was no country of Ukraine to speak of, so it was fairly rare for "Ukrainian" to be used/allowed as an officially accepted identity. Ukrainians were often noted as "Polish", "Austrian", or "Russian" depending on which country they immigrated from. This was also the time period when Ukrainians themselves started to use "Ukrainian" as their ethnicity; previously Ruthenian was often used and can be found in some old records in Canada. Nowadays, Ruthenian (or Rusyn) only refers to a small subset of people mainly concentrated around the Polish/Ukrainian/Slovakian borders.

Sidenote: Ruthenian comes from the latin name for "Rus" aka Kyivan Rus, the East Slavic Kingdom centred around Kyiv in the 9th-13th Centuries, and is also where Russia got its current name after changing from "Moskovy".
Ukrainians were unlikely classified as "Russians" though because most Ukrainians to Canada came from interwar Poland (Galicia), which before that was part of the Austro-Hungarian empire.

http://skyscraperpage.com/forum/show...09&postcount=3

ETA: You're right about few ethnic Russians immigrating though. The most common mother tongue for those born in Russia in 1931 was German, followed by Yiddish.
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  #70  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2018, 4:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
Ukrainians were unlikely classified as "Russians" though because most Ukrainians to Canada came from interwar Poland (Galicia), which before that was part of the Austro-Hungarian empire.

http://skyscraperpage.com/forum/show...09&postcount=3

ETA: You're right about few ethnic Russians immigrating though. The most common mother tongue for those born in Russia in 1931 was German, followed by Yiddish.
Yes, I mostly agree with that (and did see the post you mentioned); mother tongue isn't always a good indicator as far as the Ukrainian ethnicity goes though. "Ukrainian" was often banned or not well-defined/accepted as a language of its own, so it tends to muddle some statistics. Just things I've noticed when researching my own roots.

Last edited by Nathan; Mar 27, 2018 at 4:33 AM.
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  #71  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2018, 4:35 AM
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Yes, I mostly agree with that (and did see the post you mentioned); mother tongue isn't always a good indicator as far as the Ukrainian ethnicity goes though. "Ukrainian" was often banned or not well-defined/accepted as a language of its own though, so it tends to muddle some statistics.
There's a few funny numbers around the edges with Ukrainians, though the post-WWI censuses were better than 1911 where they got lumped mostly with the "Austro-Hungarians."

Most of the "non-Ukrainian Ukrainians" were classified as Polish or Austrian.

For 1931 all of Canada:

Ukrainian origin 225,113
Ukrainian MT 252,802

Polish origin, Ukrainian MT 20,992
Austrian origin, Ukrainian MT 12,753
Romanian origin, Ukrainian MT 4,459
Russian origin, Ukrainian MT 2,739
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  #72  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2018, 4:44 AM
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They were sometimes called Ruthenian latterly but most often they were called Austrian, which confuses people starting out on their family histories. I've had to explain that that doesn't mean that their family came from Vienna.
Here's the stats on the "Austrian"-born for 1931. Obviously most didn't come from Austria proper, but rather reflected pre-1920 Austria.

Born in Austria, 1931:

Ukrainian MT 14,315 38.2%
German MT 11,264 30.1%
Polish MT 2,590 6.9%
Yiddish MT 2,560 6.8%
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  #73  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2018, 4:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
There's a few funny numbers around the edges with Ukrainians, though the post-WWI censuses were better than 1911 where they got lumped mostly with the "Austro-Hungarians."

Most of the "non-Ukrainian Ukrainians" were classified as Polish or Austrian.

For 1931 all of Canada:

Ukrainian origin 225,113
Ukrainian MT 252,802

Polish origin, Ukrainian MT 20,992
Austrian origin, Ukrainian MT 12,753
Romanian origin, Ukrainian MT 4,459
Russian origin, Ukrainian MT 2,739
My argument is the use of "MT" as the defining aspect though. It wasn't uncommon (and still isn't for that matter) for Ukrainians not to have Ukrainian as their mother tongue. It was even a little more ambiguous in the past as well when it wasn't often/consistently recognized as a language in its own right. I don't have as much exposure to other groups, so I'm not sure how wide-spread it was, but ethnic Ukrainians were often miscategorized both by which country they came from as well as the language. The tracking/categorization definitely did improve as the years went by though. In the early years the immigration/census officials and their personal opinions had an outsized influence on the results.

----------
*Edit*

And for the record, I'm part German and part Ukrainian. My German side comes by way of the Russian Empire, my Ukrainian side comes by way of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, so in doing family research, I've noted a lot of these odd inconsistencies.

Last edited by Nathan; Mar 27, 2018 at 5:04 AM.
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  #74  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2018, 5:03 AM
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Born in Russia and German MT, 1931:

Manitoba 11,017
Saskatchewan 20,670
Alberta 10,129

German-Russians represented 50% of the Russian-born population in Manitoba, 66% in Saskatchewan and 65% in Alberta.

Winnipeg's large Jewish community resulted in a more diverse Russian-born population; 33% of those born in Russia in Manitoba were Yiddish-speaking Jews.
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  #75  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2018, 5:34 AM
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My argument is the use of "MT" as the defining aspect though. It wasn't uncommon (and still isn't for that matter) for Ukrainians not to have Ukrainian as their mother tongue. It was even a little more ambiguous in the past as well when it wasn't often/consistently recognized as a language in its own right. I don't have as much exposure to other groups, so I'm not sure how wide-spread it was, but ethnic Ukrainians were often miscategorized both by which country they came from as well as the language. The tracking/categorization definitely did improve as the years went by though. In the early years the immigration/census officials and their personal opinions had an outsized influence on the results.

----------
*Edit*

And for the record, I'm part German and part Ukrainian. My German side comes by way of the Russian Empire, my Ukrainian side comes by way of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, so in doing family research, I've noted a lot of these odd inconsistencies.
I think the best way to get the Ukrainian population would be to add all Ukrainian origin (regardless of MT) and then all other Ukrainian speakers. This means MT isn't the defining aspect of the Ukrainian population, but adding them brings in those that are excluded from the ethnic origin definition.

If they're not either, it's impossible to detect them. Unless some Polish MT are actually ethnic Ukrainians.

ETA: The cross-classifications show 5,535 ethnic Ukrainians with Polish MT. But these can be accounted for in my definition.
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  #76  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2018, 6:15 AM
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Are these reported ancestries responses that are completely self-identified or did the census taker also make a judgement call back then?

I know generally ancestry written responses are completely self identified but written responses still can be lumped or re-categorized by the census.
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  #77  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2018, 6:44 AM
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Are these reported ancestries responses that are completely self-identified or did the census taker also make a judgement call back then?

I know generally ancestry written responses are completely self identified but written responses still can be lumped or re-categorized by the census.
I don't know how wide-spread the practice was, but from digging in, according to official records, my ancestors were Austrian/Galician Polish speakers. They were from "Galicia" (Halychyna), but they definitely weren't Polish speakers... And from what I know, they wouldn't have voluntarily said they were. So, from personal experience I know there was misclassification.

English knowledge wasn't wide-spread in this era of immigration (which is why anything non-English was frowned upon in the ensuing decades). This lead to census-takers and immigration officials having much more judgement/influence than might typically be the case. And given geo-political realities and the nature of the world at the time, the ambiguity was fairly understandable.

My German heritage was more straight-forward, since German (language and ethnicity) was a bit more well-defined.
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  #78  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2018, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Nathan View Post
I don't know how wide-spread the practice was, but from digging in, according to official records, my ancestors were Austrian/Galician Polish speakers. They were from "Galicia" (Halychyna), but they definitely weren't Polish speakers... And from what I know, they wouldn't have voluntarily said they were. So, from personal experience I know there was misclassification.

English knowledge wasn't wide-spread in this era of immigration (which is why anything non-English was frowned upon in the ensuing decades). This lead to census-takers and immigration officials having much more judgement/influence than might typically be the case. And given geo-political realities and the nature of the world at the time, the ambiguity was fairly understandable.

My German heritage was more straight-forward, since German (language and ethnicity) was a bit more well-defined.
They had categories that they were supposed to use, for consistency. They didn’t write down whatever the person might have said. Also, they often didn’t really see all of the people in the census - instead they’d get information from a landlady or someone like that, which would tend to be vague. Sometimes they just made up whatever seemed plausible.
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  #79  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2018, 4:35 PM
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I don't know how wide-spread the practice was, but from digging in, according to official records, my ancestors were Austrian/Galician Polish speakers. They were from "Galicia" (Halychyna), but they definitely weren't Polish speakers... And from what I know, they wouldn't have voluntarily said they were. So, from personal experience I know there was misclassification.
Is this pre-WWI? In 1911, the Census included "Austro-Hungarian" and "Polish" categories but no Ukrainian category.
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  #80  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2018, 11:11 PM
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Interesting to see the east-west split for those born in Poland and Russia then.

Born in Poland, 1931

Eastern Canada

Polish MT 26,835 43.6%
Yiddish MT 21,003 34.1%
Ukrainian MT 11,131 18.1%

Western Canada

Ukrainian MT 56,095 51.2%
Polish MT 34,212 31.2%
Yiddish MT 3,077 2.8%

Born in Russia, 1931

Eastern Canada

Yiddish MT 28,747 72.8%
Russian MT 7,026 17.8%

Western Canada

German MT 43,040 57.5%
Russian MT 15,197 20.3%
Yiddish MT 10,490 14%
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