Edmonton Trolley's Should be scrapped - consultant

[lightrail]

Well, the writing is on the wall for the Edmonton electric trolley bus system. A recent consultant's report recommends that the trolley buses be scrapped and the overhead decommissioned. The biased report, claims that diesel buses are less polluting than the trolley's because the electricity is generated by a coal fired power station.

I for one am very sorry to see this report as it only looks at cost, it ignores raising fuel prices, it ignores the city's investment in the trolley overhead, it is short-sighted, it unfairly measures emissions so the results are biased against the trolley buses, it ignores quality of life. I'm further saddened by the fact that contrary to Council direction, staff have not maximized the use of the existing trolley overhead, instead replacing trolley's at every opportunity.

I am hopeful that Council will see the idiocy of the report and staff's position and have the courage and forethought to not be the only city in North America to scrap it's electric trolleys in this day of Peak Oil.

If you care about the trolley's and the quality of life in Edmonton, write to City Council with your views. Now's the time. If we don't and the consultant's report is followed, there will be no trolley buses running in Edmonton after June 2008 - leaving Vancouver with the only trolley system in Canada.

[Calgarian]

The guy probably is right in that Coal pollutes more than Diesel, but the solution should be to have the power provided via wind power (or some other form of green power) as the C-trains in Calgary are. I'm not sure what percentage wind makes up for the trains here, but I think it's fairly significant.

[240glt]

Oh boy.

I'm going to tiptoe lightly around this one as the trolley system tends to evoke some strong emotions among both the supporters and the oponents of the system. I honestly don't know what to think.

On one hand, as a cyclist I appreciate the reduction in street level pollution (Even the new so-called clean diesels stink when you're sitting behind one sucking its' exhaust) And I like riding them... I like how they glide along without making any noise. The infrastructure is there and it's relatively sturdy.

On the other hand, my biggest problem with the trolleys is the visual clutter that is generated by the lines, poles and guy wires, especially at intersections. They've just removed the lines on the east end of Alberta Avenue for the reconstruction, and I must say it looks so much better.

Also as a project manager who's had to arrange trolley lines to be taken out of service so that work can be done on buildings, I hate dealing with Epcor and the city WRT the trolleys. It requires so much extra planning and cost to have to work around.

The other problem is the cost of the new busses themselves. Seems like figures vary widely depending on who's providing them, but I also don't trust hybrids to last 30 years with their high levels of maintenance and complex diesel-electric systems. Trolleys have DC motors, and the newer ones would have a back up generator or battery pack. much more simple.

I'm sure this thread will get some lively debate!

[JAH]

I don't know about cost advantages/disadvantages of trolleys but I agree with 240 about all the damn ugly overhead wires that go with the trolley system... its just very very unappealing.

[Coldrsx]

i personally like them, but the new hybrid buses are pretty sweet.

[fortroad]

^ If they decomission the trolleys they had better rip those lines down. I just don't understand why they would drop the system considering the rising cost of energy.

[newfangled]

Our overhead system sure is ugly. In Van they don't seem nearly as bad, although maybe that's just me wearing the rose coloured glasses of Van?

[240glt]

The trolley lines don't even look that bad downtown, it's where two or more lines intersect that creates a mess of switches, wires and poles.

Preferrably, I'd like to see the bus routes realligned (Why not... the bus routes are shit right now anyways) to make the trolleys simple loops on high capacity routes.

[Coldrsx]

Originally Posted by newfangled

Our overhead system sure is ugly. In Van they don't seem nearly as bad, although maybe that's just me wearing the rose coloured glasses of Van?

they look just as bad...but you are distracted by other things more.



I personally like the lines...in most areas for they give a really urban feel.

[canucklehead2]

I have a mixed opinion of the Trolley system. Personally I think LRT should be the focus of any transit plan, with hybrid buses secondary.

Trolley buses are good because they remove local emissions from the air but they are also finnicky, ie. going off the wires, etc.. Personally, I think we need to introduce rail trolley's back to the city, at least in the downtown/inner city... Whyte/Jasper Avenue/ 95 St...

[CanadianCentaur]

I have mixed feelings, too, about getting rid of Edmonton's trolleys.

While they don't pollute locally like diesel buses do and are quieter, they have problems of their own as well. It's not just the aesthetics of the overhead wires, which I hate, and that they tend come off the wires once in a while. These trolleys are getting long in the tooth - I think they're at least 26-27 years old, as that's when most of these trolleys were manufactured. Besides I think there's so few of them around that I would be surprised if ETS is now the only transit system to have these trolleys in operation and that increasingly, they have to cannibalize them for parts.

Also what if there's a power blackout in a part of the city where the trolleys run? I've had the pleasure of being up the creek a few times when none of the trolleys were working. This has happened to me most recently a couple of weeks before last Christmas, and a number of regular diesels kept passing me by as I was waiting on 117 St and Jasper because they were already packed.

[240glt]

^ The existing trolleys are definitely at the end of their useable lifespans, and new trolleys would eliviate the black-out related traffic jams they create as well as the derailments due to having back-up on board power.

If anyone goes on a southern BC adventure this summer, you can stop by the ghost town of Sandon, just up from New Denver where there are a bunch of the old Calgary trolleys on display. Those were from the '50's I believe (old enough to have wooden doors anyways)

[wild wild west]

I personally love trolley buses, and was really impressed that Edmonton had kept some of their lines intact when I first visited the city. The overhead lines don't really bother me either - at least on a major commercial street, they just seem to blend in with the "clutter", and to me gave Edmonton a slightly gritty character (and I do mean that in a positive way) that is missing in Calgary.

Simple way to address environmental concerns, as JohnnyC stated: use wind power rather than coal to generate the electricity.

[mersar]

I'm in favour of keeping the trolley system, so long as the trolleys themselves are replaced. The BBC's that are currently in use have been in use since 81/82. Not the oldest buses around, Calgary still has a few active 1977/1978 fishbowls, but anything that old will be showing their age.

The loaner unit from Vancouver (Translink 2242, which ran as ETS 6000) recently wrapped its time in Edmonton to the great sadness of many people, drivers and riders alike, and by all accounts its time in Edmonton was a great sucess, though proponents of the system have got pretty heavy opposition to fight to keep it running.

[canucklehead2]

For me the main issue is the sudden loss of power when a trolley goes off the wire. I went flying two Septembers ago because one did along SPR, and I got a nice concussion from it... That just wouldn't have happened with a hybrid bus... Although it does have the nice, if at least reduced, diesel exhaust smell...

[JAH]

^hmmm.. did this happen at SPR and 156 st? I got stuck behind a trolley there a few months back b/c it went off the wire. I wonder if that was you...

[240glt]

95 street & 112 ave, and 101 street and 107 ave seem to be real trouble spots for the trolleys as well. Very common to see one sitting dead in the middle of the road with the driver 'round back trying to fish the pole back onto the wire.

[mersar]

Originally Posted by canucklehead2

For me the main issue is the sudden loss of power when a trolley goes off the wire. I went flying two Septembers ago because one did along SPR, and I got a nice concussion from it... That just wouldn't have happened with a hybrid bus... Although it does have the nice, if at least reduced, diesel exhaust smell...

Thats only an issue with the old trolleys, the any new trolley (no matter which manufacturer) wouldn't have that issue.

The biggest issue with the hybrids seems to be the newness of the technology, and in turn the cost. A number of people have mentioned over on CPTDB that the hybrids that ETS is testing right now are disliked by quite a few of the drivers for various reasons as well, ranging from how they handle to the noises they make.

[feepa]

I hardly notice the trolley lines downtown or in Oliver where theres more to the skyline then just blue sky. Out on 107 ave and 156st where theres nothing taller then a 2 story house, or 3 story walkup, these lines are very noticeable and prominent.

Now as for whether we should keep them, well... I'm on the fence, they have their pro's and cons.

I would be for getting rid of them, in exchange for a couple of sweet street car lines/loops (such as the jasper ave/104ave loop...), and maybe down whyte ave too

[dansk]

With electricity prices on the rise as well one must look at maintenance of lines and the cost of electricity. Considering that most of Alberta's electricity is powered by coal there is a big pollution factor. However it is minimal because those coal generators are going to produce that pollution no matter what.