2011, Q1-3 Population Growth Rates (est)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by canarob

People with names like Yaremchuk, Gagnon, and Bellegarde have often been here a long time and might have ancestors from a variety of backgrounds. Again, it's more than just the paternal line. Aside from new Canadians and groups that don't tend to intermarry, I find that even people who claim to be "X" tend to have at least one grandparent who is "Y."

This sounds almost like a racial definition of ethnicity. Just because someone named Bellegarde inherited a French or French Canadian surname from some coureur de bois a few hundred years ago does not necessarily make them "French Canadian", "French" or "Québécois" in any way.

I have some blood from fairly exotic places in my body from way back but that does not make me in any way "of" a certain nationality if I know almost nothing about that culture. It would be ridiculous (and even disrespectful) for me to claim membership in their "us".

[shreddog]

Okay, I'll open this one up for comment ...

I was born in Canada (Toronto). My mother was born in Germany with the male lineage of her family emmigrating there from Spain 3 generations prior and from Turin about 3 before that. My father's family trace their roots back to the Belorussian region by a couple generations.

My wife was born in Canada (Rimouski). Her family can trace their roots back in Quebec for 19 generations and for at least the last 4 genarations only inter-married within franco families.

My son was born in Alberta (Calgary). He has a French spelt first and middle name, has an eastern European last name. He is fully bilingual (even speaks French with a slight Abitibi accent!) and attends a franco school based on the Quebec cirriculum.

So what the hell is his ethnicity????

[shreddog]

Note, the point of my post was our generation lines are often varied and not untainted and is not a good indicator of ethnicity. Language also cannot also be used solely as an indicator because people can speak different languages not associated to geography.

BTW, I offer my situation not as an example of an extreme, but rather likely a very common situation.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by shreddog

Okay, I'll open this one up for comment ...

I was born in Canada (Toronto). My mother was born in Germany with the male lineage of her family emmigrating there from Spain 3 generations prior and from Turin about 3 before that. My father's family trace their roots back to the Belorussian region by a couple generations.

My wife was born in Canada (Rimouski). Her family can trace their roots back in Quebec for 19 generations and for at least the last 4 genarations only inter-married within franco families.

My son was born in Alberta (Calgary). He has a French spelt first and middle name, has an eastern European last name. He is fully bilingual (even speaks French with a slight Abitibi accent!) and attends a franco school based on the Quebec cirriculum.

So what the hell is his ethicity????

Sounds like your son will be of mixed English (speaking) Canadian and French (speaking) Canadian ethnic identity. Most Canadians are not like this, but this is not uncommon either.

[freeweed]

I'd still like to know why Canadians are any different than any other country here. Immigration has existed in the past, and quite frankly very few people ever actually knew their family lineage beyond a few generations at best. Or are we going to pretend that everyone in France somehow shares a common ethnicity simply because of a national definition (that has varied over the centuries anyway), even though a lot of them have incredibly varied backgrounds and sub-cultures?

Perhaps someone could provide a definition of "ethnicity" that explains why Canada is unique in the world, and also covers off how many centuries of stagnation would be required before "Canadian" would be an unarguable ethnicity to claim.

Also, I'd be curious if "Russian" is considered an ethnicity by these experts who have such a hard time grasping the Canadian identity.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by freeweed

I'd still like to know why Canadians are any different than any other country here. Immigration has existed in the past, and quite frankly very few people ever actually knew their family lineage beyond a few generations at best. Or are we going to pretend that everyone in France somehow shares a common ethnicity simply because of a national definition (that has varied over the centuries anyway), even though a lot of them have incredibly varied backgrounds and sub-cultures?

Perhaps someone could provide a definition of "ethnicity" that explains why Canada is unique in the world, and also covers off how many centuries of stagnation would be required before "Canadian" would be an unarguable ethnicity to claim.

Also, I'd be curious if "Russian" is considered an ethnicity by these experts who have such a hard time grasping the Canadian identity.

I think that the short answer is that Canada is a multi-national state.

Russia could also be considered a multi-national state but perhaps not as enthusiastic or open about this state of things as Canada is.

Although Russian ethnic origin does exist in most people's minds, I don't think anyone considers Chechens or Tatars to be ethnically Russian. So there is an exclusionary aspect to the Russian ethnic identity, which does not encompass all residents or citizens of the Russian Federation.

[shreddog]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Sounds like your son will be of mixed English (speaking) Canadian and French (speaking) Canadian ethnic identity. Most Canadians are not like this, but this is not uncommon either.

I immediately see two problems with this response:

1 - if he gives up speaking either English or French, does that mean he will no longer be of mixed ethnic heritage?? If yes, doesn't that diminish any value of ethnicity if it can so easily be lost (and gained)?

2 - who is closer in ethnicity: A - a person born in Toronto who learned French but gave it up (though still has a large family in Montreal); B - a person born in Montreal, still lives there and speaks both French and English; and C - a person born/living in Rouyn who speaks exclusively French?

A and B? B and C? A, B and C?

[shreddog]

BTW, what is ethnicity??

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Although Russian ethnic origin does exist in most people's minds, I don't think anyone considers Chechens or Tatars to be ethnically Russian. So there is an exclusionary aspect to the Russian ethnic identity, which does not encompass all residents or citizens of the Russian Federation.

I have not personally seen this, but I have heard stories of Russian passports listing the hometown of Russian-born Jews as "Jew".

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by shreddog

BTW, what is ethnicity??

I am not a proponent of ethnicity - just going along with the discussion.

And also pointing out the danger or absurdity of pining for a Canadian ethnicity or ethnic origin just because other countries have one.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by shreddog

I immediately see two problems with this response:

1 - if he gives up speaking either English or French, does that mean he will no longer be of mixed ethnic heritage?? If yes, doesn't that diminish any value of ethnicity if it can so easily be lost (and gained)?

2 - who is closer in ethnicity: A - a person born in Toronto who learned French but gave it up (though still has a large family in Montreal); B - a person born in Montreal, still lives there and speaks both French and English; and C - a person born/living in Rouyn who speaks exclusively French?

A and B? B and C? A, B and C?

You are correct in pointing out the complexities. But talking about a single Canadian ethnicity also raises a lot questions and complexities.

This is why I prefer ''citizenship'' as the definitive marker for belonging to a country.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by shreddog

BTW, what is ethnicity??

Linguistic, cultural, and (sometimes) racial commonalities.

Canada has the first 2, no different than any other country. Plenty of ethnicities consist of multi-lingual peoples, not sure why we'd be special here. And plenty of "ethnicities" are actually composed of fairly distinct cultural groups. Ask a Bavarian how "German" he feels sometime if you want to hear a good rant.

The racial connection is the one where Canada falls down, hard - but this is no different for many supposed ethnicities once you get past just looking at skin colour. It really depends on how granular you get - people from northern France are distinctly different racially from the Mediterranean areas (in a generalized sense), but they're all "white" - so a lot of times the racial differences are glossed over and we just say "French". Most of Africa is like this - we see them as all "black" in a given region/country but there are often dozens of ethnicities in any given "recognized" ethnicity.

Don't even get me started on "Aboriginal" as an ethnicity. It makes about as much sense as saying "European" - and in some cases even less so. There is arguably more ethnic diversity amongst North American first nations peoples than any other continent. Yet they're typically grouped together.

I actually really dislike the concept of "ethnicity", much like Acajack. It's too loose, fluid, and ill-defined to have much meaning. But I will say that if we're going to discuss it, "Canadian" is just as valid as any other.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by freeweed

Linguistic, cultural, and (sometimes) racial commonalities.

Canada has the first 2, no different than any other country. Plenty of ethnicities consist of multi-lingual peoples, not sure why we'd be special here. .

I am not sure about this. People in Chicoutimi and Lethbridge and Tuktoyaktuk have linguistic and cultural commonalities?

Also, I do not know of many ethnicities than span linguistic divides, unless you have one portion of a group that has lost its language via assimilation and another part has kept it (Cajuns vs. Acadians) but they still share some affinities.

Maybe the Swiss? But even there I think they push it by talking about a single Swiss ethnicity. They like to portray the Swiss as being a single group that just evolved into different language communities, but that's not really it. They are more like offshoots of the neighbouring countries but they have taken on a unique Swiss identity over centuries in order to avoid all the crap going on with the neighbours.

[Acajack]

The inherent danger that lies in the "Canadian ethnic origin" debate is that because of the cultural and other aspects usually required for membership in such thingies, it become like the Russian one - something of an exclusive club for the country's majority group (and since we are in the 21st century also everyone who chooses to integrate into its fold). And that as a result others who do not correspond to the definition are viewed as "lesser Canadians".

Once again, this is why I prefer citizenship.