Halifax Population & Growth

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by Cold_Mixer

I think the difference is in perception and mentality - here, it is much LESS convenient to drive downtown than to commute on transit, while in Halifax it is the complete opposite. Also, there is a tendency to shun rather than embrace public transit in Halifax, i.e. you'll never hear the bus referred to as a "Loser Cruiser" in the GTA...

I don't know about that. Maybe it depends what part of Halifax you're talking about. Growing up in the Mainland almost everyone I knew used the bus at least a couple times a week. When I went to Dal/King's almost everyone used transit unless they lived somewhere like Cole Harbour or Fall River. I've only ever heard the term "loser cruiser" once, and it was by a 50+ year old at one of the Centre Plan meetings in reference to the need to rebrand our transit system. Individual bus routes (ie. the 20 and 80) are often looked at unfavourably, but I don't really know anyone who looks down on transit users.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by Cold_Mixer

I hope you're right. The last time I was there it was full of boarded-up and half-demolished buildings, empty and closed storefronts for lease, and just felt like it was in decline. The downtown core as a whole seemed to be suffering the past decade. I remember articles about restaurants and retailers mentioning that activity was drying up.

If that was within the last couple years, it's largely because the downtown part of Barrington was declared a Heritage District and many of the buildings are being restored or renovated. Unfortunately, the landlords/developers seemed to have a poor sense of timing and ended their tenants' leases much earlier than they should have. Barrington should look fantastic in a couple years once this construction cycle wraps up and the spaces become available for commercial use again.

[Cold_Mixer]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Oh yeah. I'm going there to see Nick Cave at Massey Hall in a few weeks.

Awesome, enjoy the show!

Originally Posted by Hali87

Individual bus routes (ie. the 20 and 80) are often looked at unfavourably, but I don't really know anyone who looks down on transit users.

I do think there's a tendency to associate transit users with being poor or otherwise disadvantaged (disabled, seniors, etc). It is in no way justified, but there is an element of class distinction in there somewhere.

It might be subtle and less obvious in areas where transit use is common, especially for young people and students, but most of my peers in their 30's and 40's viewed taking public transit as a big step down.

I'm sure this perception would change but they have done little to make transit more attractive.

Remember when they first introduced the MetroLink service? I expected coach-style buses with lots of room for business types to stretch out with a paper or use their laptops to get a start on emails. But no, they just bought more of the sardine can, squished legs, barely got room to fit your bag on your lap vehicles. The seats had a bit more padding, but very little else to entice drivers out of their vehicles.

Get some comfy coach-style buses on main express routes and people might be more inclined to use the service because they can be productive on the way to work. But that isn't the way Metro Transit thinks.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by Cold_Mixer

Awesome, enjoy the show!



I do think there's a tendency to associate transit users with being poor or otherwise disadvantaged (disabled, seniors, etc). It is in no way justified, but there is an element of class distinction in there somewhere.

It might be subtle and less obvious in areas where transit use is common, especially for young people and students, but most of my peers in their 30's and 40's viewed taking public transit as a big step down.

I'm sure this perception would change but they have done little to make transit more attractive.

Remember when they first introduced the MetroLink service? I expected coach-style buses with lots of room for business types to stretch out with a paper or use their laptops to get a start on emails. But no, they just bought more of the sardine can, squished legs, barely got room to fit your bag on your lap vehicles. The seats had a bit more padding, but very little else to entice drivers out of their vehicles.

Get some comfy coach-style buses on main express routes and people might be more inclined to use the service because they can be productive on the way to work. But that isn't the way Metro Transit thinks.

MetroLink was actually able to attract riders beyond all expectations though, and while not luxurious the buses are certainly comfortable (IMO). Even though the concept itself (highly compromised BRT) isn't great, the routes work relatively well because they're direct and the vehicles have at least some advantage during rush-hour traffic. I believe the Sackville Metrolink also cut down trip times significantly compared to what had been available before. I think an expanded BRT system would work well along corridors such as Northwest Arm Drive - Dunbrack, and the 111.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Cold_Mixer

Agree wholeheartedly.



Actually, in my case the reasons I've described were secondary considerations. Job transfer brought us here.



I liked living in Halifax and I like living in Toronto. Both have pros and cons, good points and bad. But back in Jan when I was watching Soundgarden kick it at the Sound Academy, I was SO glad to be here.

Completely understood!

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Cold_Mixer

I think the difference is in perception and mentality - here, it is much LESS convenient to drive downtown than to commute on transit, while in Halifax it is the complete opposite. Also, there is a tendency to shun rather than embrace public transit in Halifax, i.e. you'll never hear the bus referred to as a "Loser Cruiser" in the GTA...

I have to admit, I've never heard that term used to describe the buses here.

However, I do understand the idea as to why transit in Halifax would be looked upon as a less desirable option, and that's simply because the service is so inefficient. I vowed years ago while standing in the crowds on a cold winter morning hoping to get on the next bus that arrives (since there wasn't room on the last one), to avoid using the bus system unless it improves. All these years later it still has a long way to go.

There's no question in my mind that if Halifax had an efficient BRT or LRT (or some combination thereof) that it would be considered a viable option and would lose the "loser cruiser" designation. It amazes me that the people in charge haven't figured out yet that if you design a system to be efficient and easy to use, that people will actually use it.

There are so many cities out there that can provide a good example to learn from...

[Cold_Mixer]

Originally Posted by Hali87

MetroLink was actually able to attract riders beyond all expectations though, and while not luxurious the buses are certainly comfortable (IMO). Even though the concept itself (highly compromised BRT) isn't great, the routes work relatively well because they're direct and the vehicles have at least some advantage during rush-hour traffic. I believe the Sackville Metrolink also cut down trip times significantly compared to what had been available before. I think an expanded BRT system would work well along corridors such as Northwest Arm Drive - Dunbrack, and the 111.

I agree, and we used the service for about half a year or so until we no longer needed it. But I still think they need to appeal to rider dignity if they hope to change the perception of transit as being less than desirable. No executive is going to prefer sitting in a cramped seat with a student's rain-soaked duffel bag sitting on half their lap when they can be cruising in the comfort of their SUV.

Contrast with a GO bus or train in the GTA, where people can relax with a book, listen to music, read a newspaper, or use their laptops/tablets with relative comfort and ease. I do think personal space is an important part of making transit more appealing, in addition to reducing travel times and increasing convenience.

Of course, subways are sardine cans, but they are also highly convenient and are mostly reliable, at least more so than surface routes. So there's always a trade-off somewhere.

[Cold_Mixer]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I have to admit, I've never heard that term used to describe the buses here.

I grew up in Sackville. I heard it a lot.

I vowed years ago while standing in the crowds on a cold winter morning hoping to get on the next bus that arrives (since there wasn't room on the last one), to avoid using the bus system unless it improves. All these years later it still has a long way to go.

THIS. Many times over one winter we stood outside Scotia Square waiting for the MetroLink. If it so much as flurried, it would seem one or two buses wouldn't show up. Just vanished into the mists. And of course, once a bus did roll up, it would be swarmed by the dozens of waiting passengers trying to squeeze on. Even in the worst traffic we would have gotten home quicker by driving. There are reasonable delays, and then there are Metro Transit's mysterious delays without any apparent cause. VERY frustrating.

There are so many cities out there that can provide a good example to learn from...

NYC was very impressive. Their system is so complex and extensive and 2 bucks can take you a long way.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Cold_Mixer

NYC was very impressive. Their system is so complex and extensive and 2 bucks can take you a long way.

Oh yeah. There's nowhere in Canada that even comes close. The population density in Manhattan and even the other boroughs is sufficient to really support an incredibly extensive system. Toronto and Montreal's subways systems look like Fisher-Price systems by comparison. And anywhere else--forget it!

[Nilan8888]

As a TO home-owner formerly of Halifax, I wanted to get in on the debate:

I disagree, but it is more a question of what kind of lifestyle you prefer. For some, a mid-size or smaller city is big enough, but for others, they prefer the energy and dynamics of a larger center. These tend to be the hubs of progress and culture. (Disclaimer - I am now in Toronto but grew up and lived in Halifax until 2011.)

I think there's more to what someone123 says. I grew up and lived in Halifax until 2008 -- except for a brief 1.75 year stint in Fredericton after which I returned to Halifax for another year or so before heading out here -- and I would say for MOST people the mid-sized cities are big enough.

I will not speak to Vancouver from any experience -- IMO Vancouver is probably more of a cultural center than TO is. You'll hear no argument from me that TO has cultural events that Halifax simply does not and that Vancouver does not have. But culture in TO to me feels... tacked-on. That is, it's here because this is a place of so many people. I work a 5 minute walk away from the Bell Lightbox (used to work one block away until 6 months ago), I walk down King Street West every day to work, and I feel that I'd trade all that for a shorter commute time. I think these long commute times contribute to a sense of a lack of control, or a lack of options in everyday life. You have to map out more of your day to get to places because so much is spent in transit. Which contributes to you not wanting to go places because it's just such a hassle, even on weekends. I mean, in Halifax I could walk 20 minutes from my place and BE SOMEWHERE DIFFERENT. Or at least it felt that way. In TO I walk 20 minutes and I'm just 20 minutes away from my house.

Mind you, I live in Scarborough. Many would look at that and say "well, no wonder"... but hey, I'm still well within the TO city boundaries.

I enjoy being able to leave the car at home and use an extensive modern transit system, the chance to experience all manner of cultures, cuisine, entertainment, a wealth of educational and job opportunities, all benefits of being located in a major hub of financial, cultural, and social progress. Of course it is far from perfect and nowhere near a paradise on Earth, and there are many things I miss about home. But I think this city will continue to be one of the main centers of action during my lifetime, and that is important at this stage of my life.

The educational and job opportunities I would not argue with and would cite as a major draw. However as was said, people are able to live and work in Halifax in ways they didn't use to. I had a job in Halifax that I was more or less satisfied with: I moved out here for my wife, not because I had a burning desire for better money (although that sweetened the deal). The cuisine I find unimpressive... not that Halifax is by any means superior or that TO doesn't have good restaurants, but if you want great food, IMO Quebec City is where you should be. I've been to some of the better places in TO to eat and yeah, it was good. But I don't often leave a restaurant thinking how it blew other dining out of the water. When I went to QC, I did.

The cultures I like fine enough, but I actually feel like it is more of an alienating experience. There is a great depth of cultures in TO, but I feel they are all groups that keep to themselves and don't interact to great extents. I mean, you grow up here and you meet all sorts of people, but considering TO is not conducive to moving around the city, I'm not sure you get much of a united sense of community out of that. For instance, I moved out something like 12 years ago. The neighbors around my parent's place are almost all new now since so many older residents died off. But I know their replacements much better than the neighbors around my OWN house, despite only having met them a handful of times.

Halifax (and NS in general) has big downsides, too. Lack of vision, poor management, sketchy economy, and lest we forget, disproportionately high taxes that punish citizens and small business. It is not a draw for corporate interests (without lucrative bribes on the backs of taxpayers), travel costs are much higher due to the extra hops needed to get anywhere, health is suffering due to higher rates of obesity and disease, the population is aging, and the politicians have sold everyone out to line their own pockets and those of their cronies. The last time I walked down Barrington Street it was starting to look like a wasteland of neglect and decay, nothing like it used to be when I was growing up.

But... TO suffers most of this as well. Sketchy economy I'll grant you to a certain extent, but even that is less sketchy these days. The high taxes DO make things difficult -- I tend to blame John Buchannan in my private moments -- but hopefully that will change.

As for lack of vision and poor management... the TTC infrastructure is itself indicative of that. Not to mention that as bad as some people have said Halifax's mayor is, there is simply NO comparison to Rob Ford. NONE. There isn't really much of a comparison to Mel Lassman. David Miller was pretty good -- in that he was passable -- but considering the scope and benefits TO already has, the past 20 years has been a real gong show. Halifax's mayors have simply been somewhat disappointing. Neither Walter Fitzgerald or Peter Kelly were downright embarrassments. They made some missteps, but I never for a moment felt Kelly was trying to rob me of my tax dollars. And I don't really feel the same way about Halifax Councillors, disagree with them as I might. Quite the opposite, actually, I think even the likes of Councillor Watts is doing what she thinks is best, even if I do a lot of facepalms over it. Meanwhile here, although it's far from a rule, these municipal guys here in TO I feel much more often fit the term "crook" and "corrupt".

People are leaving not because they hate the place but because they are not feeling overly optimistic about the long-term future. For those of us with a substantial amount of working years ahead of us, there needs to be a heartbeat, some lifeblood, a feeling that there are opportunities available. After decades of stagnant wages and heavy taxes, there needs to be more to life than just ocean breezes and pleasant scenery. The best resource in NS is the people, but the gov't just sees them as cattle to be herded and milked dry.

I really don't think that's true anymore. I didn't leave because I wasn't optimistic about my future. I left because I met my wife. Additionally the people I know who moved out here, especially the ones who've come in the past 5-8 years, came out here because they wanted to make MORE money, not because they had literal trouble finding it in Halifax. Cape Bretoners moving to Alberta, yes: they're moving to find jobs from a place that has few. Halifax to Toronto? It's more because they want BETTER jobs, not because they don't have ones already, or can't get another. That was more the problem when my parents were my age.

Perhaps, but again, everyone has different standards. For some, a more expensive rent or mortgage is worth the side benefits of living in a particular city. For others, not so much.

I think, again, that most of those benefits skew to mid-size. I am lucky enough to own in TO. But I think if I was on my own in TO and forced to rent, I'd rather take a job back home and own, and build equity of some sort.

Energy shortages might throw a wrench in that prediction. In any event, without major changes to how it is managed, NS is simply going to have a hard time competing with major urban centers. Many smaller cities and towns in Southern Ontario would boom long before the residual waves wash onto the shores of the Maritimes.

I don't know much about that. First of all, I think the energy shortages are further off than most people think. In fact, if current signs are a trend, the US is looking at becoming more and more energy independent. This might not bode well for Ontario, which is all about exporting energy to the States.

I really don't see Southern Ontario booming all that much. London and Kitchener may do well I suppose, but I don't know that Windsor or Niagara are going anywhere fast. Halifax is in a position to do well what it does well in for some time to come. Let's just hope them sea levels don't rise too much in the meantime .

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Dude, I lived in Toronto for five years, in four different neighbourhoods. TTC is not amazing—ask anyone involved in local civic-planning issues. It's a decent system if you're downtown. Otherwise, it's awful, and it's horribly far behind.

And rental prices are not the same as in Halifax. Check out this CMHC chart, which I have no reason to believe is incorrect.

Downtown??? Anywhere on the Yonge line is amazing... or bloor for that matter.

It is by far, without a doubt, the best subway system in Canada. Name a city with a better subway system. No, there isn't one.

Did you live in Toronto, or are you one of those people who says "oakville" is Toronto?

[Cold_Mixer]

Originally Posted by Nilan8888

As a TO home-owner formerly of Halifax, I wanted to get in on the debate...I think these long commute times contribute to a sense of a lack of control, or a lack of options in everyday life...in Halifax I could walk 20 minutes from my place and BE SOMEWHERE DIFFERENT...In TO I walk 20 minutes and I'm just 20 minutes away from my house.

Thanks for sharing your comments, you make some great points. We are lucky; I work from home and my wife is within walking distance of her office. Long commute times would probably grind us down as well.

I had a job in Halifax that I was more or less satisfied with: I moved out here for my wife, not because I had a burning desire for better money (although that sweetened the deal).

It was my wife's job transfer that brought us out here as well. My job goes where I go, but in my field there are very few options back home if I was to lose it. Chances are I would have to settle for something I might not want, whether by role or salary. At least here I have hundreds, if not thousands, of places I could apply to. Sure, the competition is more intense, but just knowing there are options makes it easier to sleep at night.

I find that, in general, Maritimers are reluctant to rock the boat in the workplace and put up with more crap than they should due to the fear of being out of work.

The neighbors around my parent's place are almost all new now since so many older residents died off. But I know their replacements much better than the neighbors around my OWN house, despite only having met them a handful of times.

I get your point, but when we lived in the Sackville suburbs for almost 10 years we only knew a couple of our neighbors by first name, and only enough to say hello or comment on the weather. Most likely because our own nature was quiet and private, and we have no kids. I honestly don't find it much different here in that respect. People are guarded and cautious, but so are we, so I guess this has been an easy adjustment for us.

Not to mention that as bad as some people have said Halifax's mayor is, there is simply NO comparison to Rob Ford. NONE.

Agreed. It seems TO goes more for big personalities than competence. He and his brother remind me of mobster/goombah/Soprano types. Seems they'd be more at home in track suits and gold chains than suits and ties.

I didn't leave because I wasn't optimistic about my future...That was more the problem when my parents were my age.

I think there is a growing demographic problem. Aging population, increasing health care costs, high levels of taxation, utility gouging, and a population that is shrinking. Rural decay, the buckets of cash being handed over to rich corporations, the impending housing crunch. All of these are concerns and make it harder for me to feel optimistic about my home province.

...the US is looking at becoming more and more energy independent. This might not bode well for Ontario, which is all about exporting energy to the States.

This will not bode well for Canada as a whole.

I really don't see Southern Ontario booming all that much. London and Kitchener may do well I suppose, but I don't know that Windsor or Niagara are going anywhere fast. Halifax is in a position to do well what it does well in for some time to come. Let's just hope them sea levels don't rise too much in the meantime .

I think what I was getting at was if there was a ricochet or rebound effect off Toronto, it would most likely benefit the outer areas before rippling further east. Many companies, like Target, Oracle, Sobeys, etc, are now choosing Mississauga over TO, for example. People will slowly move out from the center, to keep one foot in the door while taking advantage of better tax rates, less congestion, cheaper housing, etc.

[Nilan8888]

Downtown??? Anywhere on the Yonge line is amazing... or bloor for that matter.

It is by far, without a doubt, the best subway system in Canada. Name a city with a better subway system. No, there isn't one.

Did you live in Toronto, or are you one of those people who says "oakville" is Toronto?

Worldly, I'd concur somewhat with DryBrain.

Absolutely, the Yonge line is great if you live on it -- well, sorta. Living on Bloor is even better because the rides are less congested and less prone to delays.

But seriously, the TTC leaves a lot to be desired. I can't compare it to other large-city transit because I only really know Metro Transit and what passed for Transit in Fredericton. Although I DO remember thinking taxis in Freddy came dirt cheap.

But the problems with the TTC are apparent as soon as you take a look at the map. The coverage is just not there. Further, the Yonge line has been and by all accounts still is hampered by chronic delays. Every third trip or more you're guaranteed your train will stop on the tracks at least once for at least five minutes or more. When I was in London the subway cars didn't stop once. The Bloor line has treated me far better even though it's older. But still: the coverage of this system is really poor for a city this size. I mean what's up with the Shep. line. Five stops, really?


On to C_M:

It was my wife's job transfer that brought us out here as well. My job goes where I go, but in my field there are very few options back home if I was to lose it. Chances are I would have to settle for something I might not want, whether by role or salary. At least here I have hundreds, if not thousands, of places I could apply to. Sure, the competition is more intense, but just knowing there are options makes it easier to sleep at night.

Yes, there is that. In Halifax you don't have as many firms to shop yourself to. But it's getting better and frankly, there's less competition as well.

I find that, in general, Maritimers are reluctant to rock the boat in the workplace and put up with more crap than they should due to the fear of being out of work.

Really? Hm, there might be something to that. I hadn't noticed. I wonder if that means...

...nah...

I think there is a growing demographic problem. Aging population, increasing health care costs, high levels of taxation, utility gouging, and a population that is shrinking. Rural decay, the buckets of cash being handed over to rich corporations, the impending housing crunch. All of these are concerns and make it harder for me to feel optimistic about my home province.

It was my understanding that most of those problems -- save taxation (seriously NS, what is UP with those tax rates???), and maybe utility gouging -- are just as bad if not worse in TO. I would think the Demographic issue is worse out here, because the Maritimes tend to have a slightly better birth rate. True, the overall population looks like it will be shrinking, but that seems to be the case everywhere. And the housing crunch worries me here, trust me... I'm glad we bought before the Market stabilized so we didn't quite buy at the high water mark.

I feel optimistic about home because I think it's doing better than it has in a while. Yes, these are problems to be dealt with... but we're talking about a city that almost didn't change for 20 years. To not be optimistic about NS would pretty much be par for the course -- things probably would have looked even worse at different points in history. It is not a land known for celebrating glasses that are half-full.

This will not bode well for Canada as a whole.

Probably, but more so Ontario and Alberta. Although come to think of it, it might just affect Alberta. I'm talking about the whole Shale oil thing, which might not have an impact on Ontario hydro.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

Downtown??? Anywhere on the Yonge line is amazing... or bloor for that matter.

It is by far, without a doubt, the best subway system in Canada. Name a city with a better subway system. No, there isn't one.

Did you live in Toronto, or are you one of those people who says "oakville" is Toronto?

I lived in Kensington Market, High Park, the Annex, and Little Italy, so yeah, downtown every time. And for two years, right across the street from the Runnymede subway station.

A better subway system in Canada? Montreal, actually, as far as cross-town coverage--gets you around the island better than Toronto's strict commuter orientation gets you around. I'm not trying to say Toronto has useless transit, but the Bloor-Danforth line and the Yonge-University line only serve a fraction of the population--and yes, I mean within the city, not including the 905. Even the inner-city neighbourhoods aren't all well-served. Go to Parkdale or Cabbagetown or Liberty Village. No subway there, only streetcars, and they're as slow as buses, except where they have a ROW. (Which is only on St. Clair, for now.)

System-wide, delays are chronic, the stations are way beyond platform capacity, and public opinion has plummeted...it's a rapidly depreciating system that can't handle the strain on it, and the money isn't there to expand it as rapidly as it needs to be expanded, whether from the feds, the province, or the fare box. It's really a dire situation that's only going to get better slowly, with even higher fares and painfully large amounts of public money (plus, in all likelihood, toll roads and congestion pricing on intra-urban arterials) to compensate for years of neglect.

Really, compare a Toronto subway map with the Chicago map, keeping in mind that the two cities are almost exactly the same size.

[someone123]

I think it's pretty telling that this is a debate now. My sense is that, back in the 1970's, most people would just have to grimly accept a lower standard of living in Halifax (in terms of money and material things) and hope that it was outweighed by being close to family, etc.

I tried to avoid questions of taste or lifestyle since they vary from person to person. If you love going to pro sports games all the time, you're going to prefer Toronto for that. Personally, I couldn't care less about sports. Concerts are more debatable since there are events like the Pop Explosion. I go to about 2 proper shows a year here in Vancouver, or maybe less. I'm not sure Halifax would be any worse.

[Nilan8888]

That's another thing -- musically Halifax is not as far behind as you would think.

Yes, it doesn't get main draws a whole lot... they happen, but not frequently. But it has a pretty vibrant local music scene that punches above its weight. Which isn't to say that TO can't compete, but that it should have an easier time blowing Halifax out of the water.

If Halifax spends the money now, it could really go places. Yes, those places are never going to reach TO heights, but maybe that's not we'd want to reach for. Getting a good public transportation system and stadium (in that order) with some further downtown development would really make things fly.

[Cold_Mixer]

Originally Posted by Nilan8888

That's another thing -- musically Halifax is not as far behind as you would think.

Halifax has always had a vibrant local scene, even if the rest of the country didn't know it.

I think that as entertainers start looking for new markets to tap (due to declining album sales, "tired" markets, etc) places like Halifax could be top of the list, if politicians and promoters would stop stumbling over each other.

[Cold_Mixer]

Originally Posted by Nilan8888

Really? Hm, there might be something to that. I hadn't noticed. I wonder if that means...

...nah...

Not sure if I explained my point clearly. I noticed a change in worker attitude when I moved here, as in people are more assertive and don't take a lot of crap from management, whereas in NS it seemed people would be willing to endure more abuse because they (usually) can't just walk down the street to another job. It wasn't out of passivity or better manners, just self-preservation.

But, of course, I'm just generalizing.

...the Maritimes tend to have a slightly better birth rate.

I don't think that's true anymore. Birth estimates are predicted to decrease for NS and increase slightly for ON and AB:

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tabl...emo04a-eng.htm

Fact is, NS will need a substantial influx of new residents to keep the economic fires burning. The tax base is getting older and not being replaced. The question is, what is being done to entice new settlers? What is being done to make NS a place where corporations want to do business (aside from being handed bags of taxpayer cash)?

Instead of constantly being in a reactive state, leaders must be in a proactive state. And when I survey the current crop of "leaders", that is where my optimism starts to fade.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Cold_Mixer

I don't think that's true anymore. Birth estimates are predicted to decrease for NS and increase slightly for ON and AB:

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tabl...emo04a-eng.htm

Fact is, NS will need a substantial influx of new residents to keep the economic fires burning. The tax base is getting older and not being replaced. The question is, what is being done to entice new settlers? What is being done to make NS a place where corporations want to do business (aside from being handed bags of taxpayer cash)?

Instead of constantly being in a reactive state, leaders must be in a proactive state. And when I survey the current crop of "leaders", that is where my optimism starts to fade.

Here's something interesting: Immigration to Toronto has dropped from about 235 new residents per 10,000 population in 2002, to only 129 last year. The Toronto region is rapidly diminishing as a destination for new immigrants, while (no surprise) the prairies are booming. In fact, Vancouver and Toronto were the only CMAs that actually become less diverse, linguistically (people with a mother tongue besides English and French).

The Atlantic region has really improved as well—Moncton was at 7 immigrants per 10,000; now it's at 33. Charlottetown, of all places, went from 10 to 95. Halifax did less well, only going from 35 to 45, after a big drop in the late 90s. Some demographers think that's due to a greater focus on enticing rural Nova Scotians to the city, rather than immigrants, and, of course, Halifax is the one city in the region to which a significant number of non-maritimers move.

Anyway, the trend lines are like this—Ontario, and to some degree B.C., are rapidly diminishing as immigrant destinations, while the prairies and, to some degree, the Atlantic region is picking up the slack. (Immigration is capped at 250,000 per year right now, so one region's loss is, necessarily, another's gain, unfortunately.)

I think over the next decade or so, we're going to see a lot ethnic diversity spreading across Canada, rather than being focused in the biggest cities, and the benefits of immigration will begin to accrue to other regions. We've already succeeded in snagging some of this, so I'm optimistic that if we act aggressively, we can get still more.

[Drybrain]

Forgive me if this has been dealt with before, but I've noticed something weird in StatCan population numbers for HRM.

Sometimes I see a 2011 census population of about 390,000 cited, and other times I see 409,000.

It's not an enormous difference either way, but that latter table has the population at 398,000 in 2009--two years before the most recent census, and 8,000 persons higher than the 390,000 figure (which, for what it's worth, is the population according to Wikipedia.)

Does anyone know why there are two counts that differ by 20,000 people? And which one is correct?