Transit Fantasies

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Oh no worries - I know that transit-only stations aren't going to be architectural jewels. It would be nice if TransLink would think about making the architecture of Skytrain stations nicer instead of paying money to put an art piece in / next to a plain square box.

For example I love the ceiling they put in the Haag Central Station in the Netherlands. It would be spectacular if they could incorporate something like that into the Gilmore Station development.

Apt description of Montreal's Central station

You could put a pretty nice glass roof behind Waterfront station. Get rid of all that white.

If they ever add a few more trains a day to the Amtrak schedule, or bus service increases, or even if Via offers more frequent service (if only), Pacific Central might start to feel a bit small. Some of the Northern BC communities are asking for Via to look into running a return of the Cariboo Prospector.

It's possible one day we might need an add on to Pacific Central. Instead of a bizarrely out of place party shop (and whatever is in the old Cloverdale paint building) you could have an architectural masterpiece that integrates into the heritage structure. A new structure could incorporate the Greyhound freight operation into the structure instead of an odd stand alone building and become primarily a bus terminal while leaving the heritage structure for trains.

[sweetnhappy]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

VERY nice job - especially with naming the stations.

Still, perhaps have a separate line running from Riverside to Metrotown to the River District, in place of the Crosstown/North Shore Lines? The way it is, anyone going to or from North Van automatically has to transfer at Willingdon.

Thanks, Migrant_Coconut. I tried to stick to a similar naming convention when compared to existing SkyTrain station names (though this wasn't always easy).

Regarding Willingdon, passengers would actually only have to transfer to a different train (on the same platform) if the train did not through run to the next line. As for whether this is practical is up for debate (and has been debated elsewhere on this forum) as through running the trains could cause delays when service interruptions occur on one line or the other, therefore affecting both lines.

I find your suggestion that the portion of the North Shore and Crosstown Lines between Riverside and Metrotown should be a separate line and run as far south as the River District. I will look into possibly making a revision to allow that. I should mention that a ways back in this fantasy map's history, which was before the first posted version online (v2.0), I had a line that ran alongside Marine Way and SE/SW Marine Drive – it started from 22nd Street, crossed the Canada Line at the Marine Drive station, veered off onto W 70th Avenue, and ended at Granville Street. I had named it the Marine Line and it's primary focus was to replace or complement the fairly frequent 100 route (which I used to travel on) and also provide a more direct connection from Surrey and New West to the Canada Line, Richmond, and YVR. This line existed before I had considered the Crosstown Line and I just might revive it...

I designed the new lines/extensions to enable the most amount of flexibility and reuse of OMCs, VSFs (Vehicle Storage Facilities), etc. – which is why a LIM train could theoretically start at Waterfront and travel to Stadium–Chinatown (SE), Commercial–Broadway (S), Metrotown (SE), Columbia, Lougheed, Brentwood (W), Commercial–Broadway (W), UBC, Oakridge–41st (E), Metrotown (N), Brentwood (N), Willingdon (N), Riverside, Park Royal Centre, Stadium–Chinatown (NE), Willingdon (E), and end up at Burnaby Mountain (Expo, Millennium, UBC Extension, Crosstown, North Shore, and Hastings). Same with the eastern and southern lines in Poco, Pitt Meadows, Maple Ridge, Surrey, the Langleys, and Abbotsford.

Originally Posted by Sheba

I've been looking at your map in some detail. While it does allow more travel outside of Vancouver, that's still where the emphasis is. *sigh*

A few notes:

The planned Hastings B Line in Vancouver only has one stop between Main and Nanaimo (Commericial, a major street, vs Strathcona and McLean). That section has many (too many?) local buses.

The Fraser Hwy Lines are missing a planned stop at 148th and have *a lot* of Langley stops.

Newton Exchange is planned to be moved to 71st and King George (where an open field is now). That small paved loop is for buses when the exchange is full.

Personally I think you're putting in too many lines as Skytrain, when some of the further out areas "would probably be better served by a different mode of mass transit". Commuter rail, light rail (not mixed in with traffic down the middle of the street) and B Line routes would adequately service some areas for decades to come - Skytrain would be overkill (and I Skytrain).

Thanks for the reply, Sheba. I fully acknowledge that there still is a lot of emphasis in Vancouver – mainly because that is where the majority of current ridership and existing bus routes exist. It's challenging to predict where ridership growth will occur in other areas. That's why I like that this topic is called "Transit Fantasies" – it doesn't have to be accurate or realistic (although I make my attempts to be at least somewhat of both). Now to address the points you brought up.

1. Yes, I see what you mean with the Hastings B-Line vs. my Hastings Line. Having two stations was something adopted from one of the previous transit fantasy maps and I can agree that a single station at Commercial Drive would be satisfactory.

2. The 148th stop is in the plans for the proposed LRT expansion (which typically have more stops). And yes, there a lot of Langley stops along the Fraser Highway. The 200th Street stop is to provide a connection to the Maple-Langley Line without requiring passengers to go as far east as Langley Centre if they are westbound – IOW, it's not a part of the Fraser Extension to Langley Centre from King George.

As for the other 3 stations east of Langley Centre on the Aldergrove Line, I tried to place those at major crossroads or near facilities that may warrant a station (i.e. Langley Memorial Hospital). The Aldergrove Line (like the Maple-Langley Line) is a much farther out into the future line compared to the Fraser Extension to Langley Centre and therefore should be considered to exist in a time when the population of Langley City and surroundings has increased considerably.

3. I was not aware of this plan so thank you for sharing. I just checked Google Maps and can see why the move is necessary (the current exchange is far too small, especially for when more routes and buses are added for Surrey). I did place the station marker at the intersection of 72nd and KGB trying to be somewhat agnostic to where the exact station might be (because of things like new exchanges or non-existent exchange locations - and I did this fairly consistently as I'm aware that even present station locations may not be right at/over/under the centre of road intersections).

4. You're absolutely correct, SkyTrain is pretty much everywhere on my map. Yes, the further out areas would definitely be better served by other modes of transit, in the transition from bus/no transit to full fledged automated rapid transit. Those other modes may even complement or be complemented by my vision of SkyTrain stretching throughout the Lower Mainland.

My fantasy (or vision) is that this may eventually, somewhat resemble what the SkyTrain network could look like in the distant future (probably not in my lifetime). I've specifically not included any other forms of transit as I wanted to focus on a fully automated and grade-separated system. Regular, express, B-Line, and BRT bus service as well as other forms of rail service all have their potential places in this system too.

Also, I hope that no-one thinks I'm picking favourites with certain lines or areas of Metro Vancouver and/or the Lower Mainland (I don't even live anywhere near any of them at present). I'm attempting to be as inclusive as possible (with my limited knowledge since I'm certainly new to this stuff and learning as I go) while taking into consideration the current situation of transit including my experiences, as well as future plans, where-ever they might come from, like official city/transit authority plans, blogs on the web, posts on this and other forums, etc. So keep posting your feedback (was a bit quiet after my previous update), telling me what you like or don't like, providing suggestions or alternatives, etc. and I will do my best to respond and address that feedback. Keep being awesome SkyscraperPage Forum users!

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by sweetnhappy

Thanks for the reply, Sheba. I fully acknowledge that there still is a lot of emphasis in Vancouver – mainly because that is where the majority of current ridership and existing bus routes exist. It's challenging to predict where ridership growth will occur in other areas. That's why I like that this topic is called "Transit Fantasies" – it doesn't have to be accurate or realistic (although I make my attempts to be at least somewhat of both). Now to address the points you brought up.

1. Yes, I see what you mean with the Hastings B-Line vs. my Hastings Line. Having two stations was something adopted from one of the previous transit fantasy maps and I can agree that a single station at Commercial Drive would be satisfactory.

2. The 148th stop is in the plans for the proposed LRT expansion (which typically have more stops). And yes, there a lot of Langley stops along the Fraser Highway. The 200th Street stop is to provide a connection to the Maple-Langley Line without requiring passengers to go as far east as Langley Centre if they are westbound – IOW, it's not a part of the Fraser Extension to Langley Centre from King George.

As for the other 3 stations east of Langley Centre on the Aldergrove Line, I tried to place those at major crossroads or near facilities that may warrant a station (i.e. Langley Memorial Hospital). The Aldergrove Line (like the Maple-Langley Line) is a much farther out into the future line compared to the Fraser Extension to Langley Centre and therefore should be considered to exist in a time when the population of Langley City and surroundings has increased considerably.

3. I was not aware of this plan so thank you for sharing. I just checked Google Maps and can see why the move is necessary (the current exchange is far too small, especially for when more routes and buses are added for Surrey). I did place the station marker at the intersection of 72nd and KGB trying to be somewhat agnostic to where the exact station might be (because of things like new exchanges or non-existent exchange locations - and I did this fairly consistently as I'm aware that even present station locations may not be right at/over/under the centre of road intersections).

4. You're absolutely correct, SkyTrain is pretty much everywhere on my map. Yes, the further out areas would definitely be better served by other modes of transit, in the transition from bus/no transit to full fledged automated rapid transit. Those other modes may even complement or be complemented by my vision of SkyTrain stretching throughout the Lower Mainland.

My fantasy (or vision) is that this may eventually, somewhat resemble what the SkyTrain network could look like in the distant future (probably not in my lifetime). I've specifically not included any other forms of transit as I wanted to focus on a fully automated and grade-separated system. Regular, express, B-Line, and BRT bus service as well as other forms of rail service all have their potential places in this system too.

Also, I hope that no-one thinks I'm picking favourites with certain lines or areas of Metro Vancouver and/or the Lower Mainland (I don't even live anywhere near any of them at present). I'm attempting to be as inclusive as possible (with my limited knowledge since I'm certainly new to this stuff and learning as I go) while taking into consideration the current situation of transit including my experiences, as well as future plans, where-ever they might come from, like official city/transit authority plans, blogs on the web, posts on this and other forums, etc. So keep posting your feedback (was a bit quiet after my previous update), telling me what you like or don't like, providing suggestions or alternatives, etc. and I will do my best to respond and address that feedback. Keep being awesome SkyscraperPage Forum users!

If I may make a suggestion, list them as rail lines and leave out which technology is used. That puts the emphasis on the route and station locations (obvious exception would be the gondola as it's not a rail line, nor could it be). When I've drawn them out on Google maps, I put the station where the intersection is too (it doesn't really matter if it's shifted off to one side or the other).

I'd still put a Fraser Hwy station at 148th - it's 1.9km from 140th and 950m from 152nd (which is why I shifted it over to Fleetwood Way). Some of your other lines have stops closer together that are in similar SFH territory.

The plan for moving Newton Exchange has been on the books for ages (decades?). For the 321 and 96B turning left off of King George can take awhile and then they tend to get bogged down in traffic on 72nd, so it makes sense to have the exchange on King George.

Extending the Canada Line in Richmond really is a fantasy. Why did you extend it west? If anything it'd be more likely to follow the 403, continuing south to Steveston Hwy and then east to No 5 Road. I doubt that's going to happen in our lifetimes...

Oh we all have favourite areas. The further out from CoV, you really start to see the catch-22 with bus service. TransLink doesn't want in increase service because not many people are riding the bus, and people aren't riding the bus because there isn't frequent service. CoV residents are spoiled and should try riding the bus "out in the 'burbs".

[sweetnhappy]

Originally Posted by Sheba

If I may make a suggestion, list them as rail lines and leave out which technology is used. That puts the emphasis on the route and station locations (obvious exception would be the gondola as it's not a rail line, nor could it be). When I've drawn them out on Google maps, I put the station where the intersection is too (it doesn't really matter if it's shifted off to one side or the other).

I'd still put a Fraser Hwy station at 148th - it's 1.9km from 140th and 950m from 152nd (which is why I shifted it over to Fleetwood Way). Some of your other lines have stops closer together that are in similar SFH territory.

The plan for moving Newton Exchange has been on the books for ages (decades?). For the 321 and 96B turning left off of King George can take awhile and then they tend to get bogged down in traffic on 72nd, so it makes sense to have the exchange on King George.

Extending the Canada Line in Richmond really is a fantasy. Why did you extend it west? If anything it'd be more likely to follow the 403, continuing south to Steveston Hwy and then east to No 5 Road. I doubt that's going to happen in our lifetimes...

Oh we all have favourite areas. The further out from CoV, you really start to see the catch-22 with bus service. TransLink doesn't want in increase service because not many people are riding the bus, and people aren't riding the bus because there isn't frequent service. CoV residents are spoiled and should try riding the bus "out in the 'burbs".

Could do with listing them all as rail lines and technology agnostic (except extensions since about half are in the works now to be implemented within a couple of decades (optimistic?)).

I'll have a look at 148th Street. It does seem like it could be practical to have a station there... just need to explore the surroundings first via Google Maps.

Yeah, the Canada Line extension is the most recent addition and it really shouldn't have been included in the version I posted. Too little thought went into it (as made obvious by your comment on extending it west).

As for being outside of the CoV, I agree that bus service is generally lacking. I'm actually outside of Metro Vancouver so it's even worse here (Chilliwack) – I never use local bus service here whereas I use transit in Metro Vancouver whenever possible. We do have an express commuter bus service to Langley now (the 66). Unfortunately, it competes with regular Highway 1 traffic during morning and evening commutes, so it ends up taking longer than driving (due to the stops of which Highstreet is a fair distance away if you include traffic).

Anyway, I've started on preliminary revisions to the map (v2.3) and will see to incorporating the feedback I've received from you and any others.

[Bdawe]

Pacific Central has plenty of platforms for any foreseeable quantity of trains that might terminate in Vancouver. What makes it appear to be anywhere near busy today, with 16-17 departures a week is VIA Rail's practice of parking out of service Canadian equipment on the platforms. If there were ever more than three arrivals per day, the cost-effective solution would be to find a spot for VIA to store their land-cruise equipment when not in use rather than build more station.

With respect to the Cariboo Prospector, running through to Vancouver would require a reverse-move at Willingdon Junction, be rather circuitous, and not be terribly reliable given the single track lift span and port traffic. It would be plenty sensible to terminate a future ex-BC Rail route at Lonsdale (rather than the old BC Rail depot out in the industrial park)

[carlos_danger]

Great work sweetnhappy!

I like your revisions to the North Shore Line from Dundarave to Riverside. In terms of a future extension beyond that I think the logical route would be a spur north from Lonsdale Quay. A station at Lonsdale and 13th would serve City Hall and Lions Gate Hospital in addition to significant residential density. The spur could terminate there, or if you're feeling ambitious it could continue north on Lonsdale before jogging east at some point (maybe follow Hwy 1 ROW?) to connect with Lynn Valley Road, where it would continue northeast and terminate at Lynn Valley Centre.

An extension to Lynn Valley is probably not realistic in my lifetime, but it has been identified as a town centre in DNV plans and there is a fair amount of development underway already. I'm less familiar with the Seymour area, but the easternmost town centre identifed is Maplewood which is served by the Riverside station on the main line.

http://www.dnv.org/property-and-deve...illage-centres

[sweetnhappy]

Originally Posted by carlos_danger

Great work sweetnhappy!

I like your revisions to the North Shore Line from Dundarave to Riverside. In terms of a future extension beyond that I think the logical route would be a spur north from Lonsdale Quay. A station at Lonsdale and 13th would serve City Hall and Lions Gate Hospital in addition to significant residential density. The spur could terminate there, or if you're feeling ambitious it could continue north on Lonsdale before jogging east at some point (maybe follow Hwy 1 ROW?) to connect with Lynn Valley Road, where it would continue northeast and terminate at Lynn Valley Centre.

An extension to Lynn Valley is probably not realistic in my lifetime, but it has been identified as a town centre in DNV plans and there is a fair amount of development underway already. I'm less familiar with the Seymour area, but the easternmost town centre identifed is Maplewood which is served by the Riverside station on the main line.

http://www.dnv.org/property-and-deve...illage-centres

Hi carlos_danger,

First, thanks for your post. I'm glad to see others chiming in.

Now then with regard to your suggestion for a spur north from Lonsdale Quay... this would be problematic due to the grade incline between Esplanade and 11th Street East – it's about 8.33% which is far above what our SkyTrain system can manage (currently). However this does not mean a north spur is impossible, it just means that it will have to be east-west to cut across the slope rather than go directly up it. A quick look at the area along with quick calculations shows me that if the spur were to come off directly east onto Keith Road West from Marine Drive (southeast of Capilano Mall station), then the segment from there to Lonsdale Avenue at 13th Street East would be 5.9% (is within 6%). The grades north and east of that point (to Lynn Valley) are well within 6% so no worries there.

I'll put my idea for this spur/branch in the next map revision (as an extended future one, just like the Mount Seymour branch) and we can talk more once it's posted. Sound good?

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by sweetnhappy

Hi carlos_danger,

First, thanks for your post. I'm glad to see others chiming in.

Now then with regard to your suggestion for a spur north from Lonsdale Quay... this would be problematic due to the grade incline between Esplanade and 11th Street East – it's about 8.33% which is far above what our SkyTrain system can manage (currently). However this does not mean a north spur is impossible, it just means that it will have to be east-west to cut across the slope rather than go directly up it. A quick look at the area along with quick calculations shows me that if the spur were to come off directly east onto Keith Road West from Marine Drive (southeast of Capilano Mall station), then the segment from there to Lonsdale Avenue at 13th Street East would be 5.9% (is within 6%). The grades north and east of that point (to Lynn Valley) are well within 6% so no worries there.

I'll put my idea for this spur/branch in the next map revision (as an extended future one, just like the Mount Seymour branch) and we can talk more once it's posted. Sound good?

They didn't seem to have that problem 110 years ago when the BC Electric Railway opened route 1 on the North Shore from Lonsdale Ferry Docks, up the middle of Lonsdale Ave, all the way to Windsor Rd. Route 2 went all the way up Lynn Valley to Dempsey. And Route 3 stretch to the area of the TCH interchange with Capilano (where people then walked to the suspension bridge).

http://www.lowerlonsdale.ca/throwbac...ctric-railway/

The thing with Lonsdale is that it is very inward focused with a secondary focus on Downtown Vancouver. What I mean is it is a pretty well self contained area of Metro Vancouver, with a lot of people working either locally in North Van City or in Downtown Vancouver. A priority for transit in the area should be to serve that community and facilitate trips to Seabus. Lonsdale is pretty much the only built up area of density in the North Vancouvers and that should be seriously considered in Transit planning. And density is spreading faster northward along the Lonsdale Corridor than laterally away from it.

Reinstating the Lonsdale streetcar route makes great sense. A shorter distance between stations facilitates trips between destinations on Lonsdale Ave while bringing commuters directly to Seabus. As a long term plan, you could run 2 lines along Lonsdale that split at Queens/29th. From there 1 line could travel east to Lynn Valley Center, and the other West to the Capilano/Edgemont area (passing that pocket of density at Westview).

Lonsdale ave is like it is in no small part because of the old Streetcar.

[logan5]

For the North Shore, I'd like to see faster boats to run the Seabus route. The current boats have a top speed of 11 knots, and so the trip takes 10 to 12 minutes. With passenger ferries capable of 50 knots and above, trip times could be less than 5 minutes.

BC Ferries should look at these boats as well. A DT to DT trip between Nanaimo and Vancouver could be done in less than an hour. BC Ferries would provide financial stability for this route, which would encourage more ridership than you would see from a private enterprise. This could open up Nanaimo as an alternative for cheaper housing.

[carlos_danger]

Originally Posted by logan5

For the North Shore, I'd like to see faster boats to run the Seabus route. The current boats have a top speed of 11 knots, and so the trip takes 10 to 12 minutes. With passenger ferries capable of 50 knots and above, trip times could be less than 5 minutes.

According to Wikipedia the Seabus could go faster:

The 1.75-nautical-mile (3.24 km) crossing takes 10–12 minutes in each direction with a cruising speed of 11.5 knots (21.3 km/h), with a 3-5 minute turnaround and, therefore, operates on a 15-minute turn-around schedule.[1] At these times, over 50 crossings are made a day. During the evenings and on Sundays, service is reduced to a 30-minute schedule with only one ferry operating.

The SeaBus is capable of operating on a 12-minute turnaround (down to 10 minutes with simultaneous loading and unloading). However, at the higher speeds, the wake created disturbs other users of the Burrard Inlet.[1] During overloads they do sometimes operate at the higher speeds.

[carlos_danger]

Originally Posted by sweetnhappy

Now then with regard to your suggestion for a spur north from Lonsdale Quay... this would be problematic due to the grade incline between Esplanade and 11th Street East – it's about 8.33% which is far above what our SkyTrain system can manage (currently).

A good point about the grade, I hadn't considered that. There was some discussion on another thread suggesting Skytrain could climb a steeper grade than 6%, although I'm not sure if it was confirmed.

I do agree with BCPhil that going up Lonsdale is the preferred route - an alternate route that skips Lower Lonsdale would be much less appealing.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by sweetnhappy

Could do with listing them all as rail lines and technology agnostic (except extensions since about half are in the works now to be implemented within a couple of decades (optimistic?)).

I'll have a look at 148th Street. It does seem like it could be practical to have a station there... just need to explore the surroundings first via Google Maps.

Yeah, the Canada Line extension is the most recent addition and it really shouldn't have been included in the version I posted. Too little thought went into it (as made obvious by your comment on extending it west).

As for being outside of the CoV, I agree that bus service is generally lacking. I'm actually outside of Metro Vancouver so it's even worse here (Chilliwack) – I never use local bus service here whereas I use transit in Metro Vancouver whenever possible. We do have an express commuter bus service to Langley now (the 66). Unfortunately, it competes with regular Highway 1 traffic during morning and evening commutes, so it ends up taking longer than driving (due to the stops of which Highstreet is a fair distance away if you include traffic).

Anyway, I've started on preliminary revisions to the map (v2.3) and will see to incorporating the feedback I've received from you and any others.

I was looking at your map some more...

Boundary Station on the Expo Line isn't going to happen. The thing with Skytrain is that you need a minimum distance between stations or it loses the ability to be rapid. Metrotown to Patterson is 800m, which is pretty damn short. Patterson to Boundary is only 600m and then it's only 1.1km to Joyce. It would have made more sense to have the station at Boundary instead of Patterson but that's not how things worked out.

Even the ridiculously short New West to Columbia is 650m and they probably would have made them further apart except for the placement of the Skybridge. The only station that'll be added to Expo / Millennium is Woodlands, and that still hasn't happened (and it's 1km away from Columbia and 1.7km away from Sapperton).

Light Rail can get away with close stops but it isn't really rapid transit. Commuter rail is kind of the opposite - the stops tend to be spaced further apart. Skytrain kind of fills the middle ground.

[sweetnhappy]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

They didn't seem to have that problem 110 years ago when the BC Electric Railway opened route 1 on the North Shore from Lonsdale Ferry Docks, up the middle of Lonsdale Ave, all the way to Windsor Rd. Route 2 went all the way up Lynn Valley to Dempsey. And Route 3 stretch to the area of the TCH interchange with Capilano (where people then walked to the suspension bridge).

http://www.lowerlonsdale.ca/throwbac...ctric-railway/

The thing with Lonsdale is that it is very inward focused with a secondary focus on Downtown Vancouver. What I mean is it is a pretty well self contained area of Metro Vancouver, with a lot of people working either locally in North Van City or in Downtown Vancouver. A priority for transit in the area should be to serve that community and facilitate trips to Seabus. Lonsdale is pretty much the only built up area of density in the North Vancouvers and that should be seriously considered in Transit planning. And density is spreading faster northward along the Lonsdale Corridor than laterally away from it.

Reinstating the Lonsdale streetcar route makes great sense. A shorter distance between stations facilitates trips between destinations on Lonsdale Ave while bringing commuters directly to Seabus. As a long term plan, you could run 2 lines along Lonsdale that split at Queens/29th. From there 1 line could travel east to Lynn Valley Center, and the other West to the Capilano/Edgemont area (passing that pocket of density at Westview).

Lonsdale ave is like it is in no small part because of the old Streetcar.

Hmm... alright. Well if the track that goes along Esplanade is elevated high enough, that would reduce the incline that would need to be climbed to go up Lonsdale Avenue. I've added a branch that turns northeast from Lonsdale Quay and proceeds up Lonsdale Avenue until turning east onto 29th Street and terminating at Lynn Valley Centre. While I see the usefulness of another branch heading west, such a branch would, IMHO, come too close to the main North Shore Line on my map.

That was an interesting and very informative read on the BC Electric Railway, thanks for sharing!

Some other changes I've made so far include the following:

• Moved Park Royal Centre station to existing bus loop/exchange on Marine Drive and simplified the track alignments (including the Hastings Line continuing up the 99 and turning west onto Marine Drive)
• Smoothed the alignment of the Hastings Line at and south of Stanley Park-Aquarium station
• Removed Strathcona and McLean and replaced with station at Commercial Drive
• Willingdon Line (revised north-south segment of Crosstown Line) runs from Riverside in North Van down to Metrotown as before, but then proceeds to follow Silver Avenue and further south-southwest until turning south when it reaches Patterson Avenue and terminates at Marine Way
• Crosstown Line (remaining east-west segment) begins at Old Orchard, proceeding west along Grange Street, then Kingsway until Tyne Street, where it continues west until it joins 41st Avenue near McKinnon Street and follows the previous alignment west from there
• Re-added Marine Line which starts at 22nd Street station, and follows Marine Way, intersecting with the Willingdon Line, then SE/SW Marine Drive, intersecting with the Canada Line, then turning directly west onto West 70th Avenue, turning northwest at the Arbutus corridor, turning west at West 49th Avenue, joining with SW Marine Drive again, turning north at Dunbar Street, intersecting with the Crosstown Line, and continuing north until terminating at Jericho-Alma (UBC/Broadway Extension) – I feel this one may need revising (particularly the portion west of Granville Street, which is a new north-south connection)
• Richmond Extension of the Canada Line now proceeds south on No. 3 Road until turning east on the Steveston Highway and terminating at No. 5 Road (is the shopping centre there called Ironwood... I see lots of stores with Ironwood in the name but didn't get any search results that indicate a collective name)
• Added station at 148th Street in Surrey and moved the 152nd Street station southeast to Fleetwood Drive

[sweetnhappy]

Originally Posted by Sheba

I was looking at your map some more...

Boundary Station on the Expo Line isn't going to happen. The thing with Skytrain is that you need a minimum distance between stations or it loses the ability to be rapid. Metrotown to Patterson is 800m, which is pretty damn short. Patterson to Boundary is only 600m and then it's only 1.1km to Joyce. It would have made more sense to have the station at Boundary instead of Patterson but that's not how things worked out.

Even the ridiculously short New West to Columbia is 650m and they probably would have made them further apart except for the placement of the Skybridge. The only station that'll be added to Expo / Millennium is Woodlands, and that still hasn't happened (and it's 1km away from Columbia and 1.7km away from Sapperton).

Light Rail can get away with close stops but it isn't really rapid transit. Commuter rail is kind of the opposite - the stops tend to be spaced further apart. Skytrain kind of fills the middle ground.

Yes indeed. I really think that the Kingsway station (not sure why it's referred to as Boundary since the track is level where it crosses Kingsway, not Boundary) should have been built instead of Patterson. But we got Patterson so no Kingsway station on the Expo.

In my next map version you will see that the Boundary-Kingsway station on the Expo Line is gone and replaced by one on the Crosstown Line (due to alignment change to separate the east-west and north-south parts of it) right at the intersection of Boundary and Kingsway. Granted it still is somewhat close to Patterson, but I think it is necessary to connect any north-south bus routes on Boundary with the east-west Crosstown Line.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by sweetnhappy

Yes indeed. I really think that the Kingsway station (not sure why it's referred to as Boundary since the track is level where it crosses Kingsway, not Boundary) should have been built instead of Patterson. But we got Patterson so no Kingsway station on the Expo.

In my next map version you will see that the Boundary-Kingsway station on the Expo Line is gone and replaced by one on the Crosstown Line (due to alignment change to separate the east-west and north-south parts of it) right at the intersection of Boundary and Kingsway. Granted it still is somewhat close to Patterson, but I think it is necessary to connect any north-south bus routes on Boundary with the east-west Crosstown Line.

I'm excited to see your next map. I wonder if you'll eventually consider sending it to TransLink. I've sent them maps I've done for bus routes and have seen some of them end up in their service optimizations (admittedly others could have come up with the same ideas, but still... ).

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by logan5

For the North Shore, I'd like to see faster boats to run the Seabus route. The current boats have a top speed of 11 knots, and so the trip takes 10 to 12 minutes. With passenger ferries capable of 50 knots and above, trip times could be less than 5 minutes.

BC Ferries should look at these boats as well. A DT to DT trip between Nanaimo and Vancouver could be done in less than an hour. BC Ferries would provide financial stability for this route, which would encourage more ridership than you would see from a private enterprise. This could open up Nanaimo as an alternative for cheaper housing.

There are already several fast ferry schemes in the works for travel to Nanaimo and Victoria. While not subsidized by BC ferries, they do seem to be getting a little more taxpayer help this time from the cities of Nanaimo and Victoria.

The thing with the seabus is it is very efficient. To get a fast boat it either needs to be pretty long, or have a lot of power to overcome the bow wave. A lot of power uses a lot of fuel. As you go faster, you start to spend more fuel for smaller gains in speed. Charging more money for a longer crossing starts to see a better return. But having an integrated fare with buses/skytrain might increase the cost of passenger carried.

The Seabus also carries a lot of people, and can load/unload them very quickly. A fast ferry that can cross Burrard inlet in 5 minutes might take an additional 10 minutes to fully load and unload through 1 or 2 gangways. That's not a bad proposition when you are about to be on it for an hour or more, but now you are looking at an average travel time when factoring in loading similar to the current seabus it loses it's advantage. I've been on the Victoria Clipper before, and I swear it takes a good 20 minutes to get everyone on board.

For example, the Fastcats could cross to the island, at design speeds, in about 30 minutes less time than a regular ferry. The problem with that was they also took at least 15 minutes longer to load and carried fewer cars. So even though the ferries could make more sailings in a day, they carried fewer cars, which meant longer waits and more people actually being turned away on certain days. So the average person's travel time, including waits, was longer.

And is a 12 minute crossing that big a deal? It takes me longer just to get to Skytrain. A 12 minute ride into the heart of downtown is a pretty sweet deal! I just think they need to run 4 of them during the peak hours.

[sweetnhappy]

Revised version (2.3) of my transit fantasy map:



Updated version below: Version 2.4

Before anyone asks, I did crop the map back to the previous size, removing the Abbotsford Line and the eastern portions of the WCE and Aldergrove Line. They're still in my PSD file but they're not the primary focus of this discussion (or of TransLink since it's jurisdiction does not extend east of Maple Ridge/Langley). The SeaBus has been re-added.

Also, the reason I've included more detailed station locations below is that I plan to convert this map to a vector format (Photoshop to Illustrator, like my SkyTrain track diagram) and will remove the map underlay.

The additional details/notes have been moved to version 2.4 below.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by sweetnhappy

Newly revised version (2.3) of my transit fantasy map:



SFU Gondola (Gondola)
- Alignment

• direct, elevated connection starting at West Campus Rd/Residence Ln
• terminates at Burnaby Mountain Pkwy/Hastings St between Duthie Ave and Dalla Tina Ave

- Stations

• SFU at West Campus Rd/Residence Ln
• Burnaby Mountain at Burnaby Mountain Pkwy/Hastings St

- Additional Notes

• Summit station may be located elsewhere, such as at West Campus Rd/University Dr West or the SFU Transportation Centre at Gaglardi Way/University Dr East
• Base station may be located at Duthie Ave/Hastings St (for better bus connection in leu of a Hastings Line station)

Let's tackle it one thing at a time, starting with the Gondola.

I think the Gondola is in the wrong location.

The purpose of the gondola is to replace bus service which is costly because the climb destroys the buses and because a lot of people ride them (meaning a lot of buses are used and thus destroyed).

By having the gondola originate on Hastings, you make it difficult for the majority of people travelling to SFU to use. Thus you still need the majority of bus service kept in place, which still results in a lot of buses being destroyed.

Using Hastings makes sense if you think a majority of SFU students live (or travel through) downtown. Unless something significant happens to our housing market, in the near future this will be almost impossible. I would wager that in the future, and probably even today, a majority of SFU students from off campus will live East of Willingdon and South of the Millennium line.

So a majority of students are either going to continue to require bus service, or are going to have to make the long trip around on Rapid transit to Hastings. To make a fully rapid transit trip, they would need to wait for almost a full build out of the fantasy, and then need to backtrack to Willingdon, transfer, get to Hastings, and transfer again, to get to the Gondola.

By having the Gondola at Production Way station, you are serving a greater number of travelers with fewer transfers and a shorter trip. You can get to Production way in 1 or zero transfers from every existing Skytrain station once the Millennium line is built under Broadway past the Canada Line (if extended to UBC, you could go from UBC to SFU gondola with zero transfers). Getting to Hastings and Mountain Parkway is going to require a lot more work for the majority of travelers.

Also, the route up Gaglardi is far more harmful to buses. The 135 doesn't eat through as many buses, and they are articulated buses that are more heavy. So by having the Gondola originate from Production Way station, you are saving the lives of many buses, and cutting down drastically more on the number that need to go to SFU.

But the biggest benefit to having the Gondola originate at Production way is it removes any kind of dependency on any of the rest of the Fantasy on actually happening. You could build it today, and it would fulfill its purpose.

Having it start on Hastings means you really do need at least a Hastings (and probably also a Willingdon) rapid transit line to happen for the gondola to meet its potential. Even at an advanced pace of construction, that is potentially decades away.

But if you really do think that there would be demand for a gondola from Hastings, then you could also build one there in addition to the one from Production Way; it is a fantasy after all.

[officedweller]

Or, alternatively, have the gondola originate from Lougheed Town Centre Station, so when frequency on the M-Line increases, the short-turn at Production can be moved to its proper terminus at Lougheed where there's the extra platform.
That makes it easier for both M-Line and Expo Line transfers to the Gondola.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Alternatively alternatively, the gondola could connect to SFU from Lake City Station, with a mid station on Mountain Parkway and Centennial Way. It was one option in the University's feasibility study - pages 33 and 38.