CFL in the Maritimes

[Empire]

Originally Posted by brettinhalifax

The last time the subject of the CFL in the Maritimes was brought up on the radio, I did a little research. Both Moncton and Halifax have their talking points, "Hub of the Maritimes" vs. "Biggest city in the Maritimes"

I thought that what mattered was having the most people the closest, so I totaled the populations within 1, 2 and 3 hours driving (per Google Maps) by county to take into account all the rural residents. Then I compared to Regina, which I totaled by Statscan census areas.

But it isn't just people, but money that matters, so I also multiplied each total by the provincial GDP per capita to roughly estimate the economic clout of each city by radius. The leading populations/GDP are in bold.



Of course, Regina and Saskatchewan have a football tradition that you can't quantify, but I was surprised to see that the three places measure up pretty evenly (with Halifax the best site in my biased opinion). People are much more likely to drive 1 hour to a CFL game than 3 hours. I'll buy a couple season tickets to a Halifax team but would probably only go to one or two games a year in Moncton. And I'm a big CFL and football fan.

In the 2 hour radius, there is only 128,000 people of overlap between Moncton and Halifax, so maybe 2 Maritime franchises isn't completely impossible. Of course even 1 Maritime franchise is pretty unlikely without a 27 or 28,000 seat stadium.

It would be interesting to have another column with the number of hotel rooms in those catchment areas.

[newflyer]

Those are interesting stats.. but how much of the population is overlap. Winnipeg and Regina are ~570km apart and thus nearly no overlap within 3 hours.

If Moncton's population within a 3 hour drive includes Halifax metro, than isn't it still questionable if 2 franchises are viable. The botom line is the CFL will hopefully award 1 franchise in Atlantic Canada within a decade, and perhaps somewhere in the distant future a second one could be considered, but only if a viable stadium were in place. The 2nd franchise in Atlantic Canada is a long shot in the next 20 years, IMO.

The GDP numbers should not be big considerations, as a CFL ticket cost between 15 - 60 dollars. Its not exactly a league for only the wealthy.

[MonctonRad]

He states in his post that there is only 128,000 of overlap within a two hour radius of Moncton and Halifax. This is not that much. The catchment areas of the two cities are relatively discrete........that's why they both do so well as regional retail hubs.

The two hour catchment population is:

Halifax..........680,366
Moncton.......634,235

You're right, it would be interesting to know the hotel room stats for the two cities. Halifax does have a large number of hotel rooms. Moncton however has a significant number of new hotels recently constructed or under construction which has substantially increased our inventory over the last five years.

eg:
- Holiday Inn Express Moncton Airport
- Super 8 Dieppe
- Marriott Residence Inn Downtown
- Future Inns
- Hampton Inn & Suites
- Casino NB Hotel
- Amsterdam Inn
- Motel 6 Magnetic Hill

[MonctonRad]

Regina a role model for Metro
Published Saturday December 5th, 2009

Saskatchewan shows how small city can succeed in CFL
Neil Hodge

CALGARY - Moncton has a role model if it seriously looks into the possibility of landing a Canadian Football League franchise some day.

Meet the Saskatchewan Roughriders, a community-owned team that is operated as a non-profit corporation. They're located in the league's smallest market in Regina, but have still found a way to become a marquee franchise that's absolutely bursting with pride.

"We have an 11-member board of directors who are business people in the province," said Saskatchewan governor Rob Pletch, who's also chairman of the board of directors.

"We sell shares in the team which are really membership interests. We've sold about 6,000 shares and raised money for the club in that way. We invite these people to an annual meeting to elect the board of directors, to approve the financial statements and treat them like shareholders.''

It costs $250 for a share in the Roughriders and there's a limit of 20 shares per person. Pletch points out there's no economic value to owning a share.

"It's really a symbolic indication that tells people 'I'm an owner,'" he said. "We give them a certificate that they frame and put on their wall. It's really an indication of an attachment to the team that goes beyond buying a season ticket.

"It's a situation where everyone in the province feels like they own the Roughriders. We have an open annual meeting that people can attend. We publish our financial statements. It's a very open concept. It's been a very successful business model for us."

The Toronto Argonauts will be the home team when the CFL's first-ever regular season game in Atlantic Canada takes place next September in Moncton. Their opponent and the date haven't yet been confirmed.

Moncton is looking to host one regular season game per year for the next five seasons and it's really anyone's guess what will happen longer term. With a new stadium that could be brought up to CFL standards, there's increased speculation of a Moncton-based Atlantic franchise. The CFL will have nine clubs when Ottawa begins play in 2013. The league would love to go coast to coast by adding a 10th team in the Atlantic region further down the road.

"For a franchise that might be considered for Atlantic Canada, I think the business model that we use could work there,'' said Pletch. "It creates a regional feeling of attachment to the team. It's not one person that owns the team. Everybody owns the team."

Saskatchewan lost 28-27 to the Montreal Alouettes in the Grey Cup on Sunday in Calgary. The Roughriders play in a 31,000 capacity stadium that's sold out every game, they have 24,000 season tickets and they draw fans from throughout the province with many people driving several hours to watch them play.

The Roughriders, one of the CFL's top money makers, did $6.2 million in merchandise sales in 2008 and that represented 54 per cent of the league's overall total. They expect to surpass that figure when the final numbers are tallied for 2009. There are 1.3 million people within a 2.5 hour drive of Moncton. There's a little over one million people in Saskatchewan and the Roughriders play out of Regina, which has a population of 200,000.

"I think the Maritimes do have some similarities to the Prairie provinces," said Pletch. "We're the only professional sports franchise in Saskatchewan. It would be the same thing for the Maritimes if Moncton gets a CFL team. "The population base is similar. We rely on regional fan support and it would have to be the same thing in the Maritimes. I think what we do in terms of a business model would translate well in Atlantic Canada."

The new Stade Moncton 2010 Stadium will have a 20,000 capacity for next year's CFL game. But the potential is there to expand the venue to at least 25,000.

"That's a good size for the CFL," said Saskatchewan alternate governor Roger Brandvold, who's also vice-chairman of the board of governors.

"You can make it work in the low twenties if you price your tickets right, you sell lots of merchandise, you get control of concessions and you have the proper corporate support."

It's about a $10 million annual budget to operate a CFL club. Moncton Mayor George LeBlanc met with Roughriders management and Saskatchewan Premier Brad Wall during Grey Cup Week.

"We talked about how they built their community ownership model," said LeBlanc. "With no major metropolitan area, the Roughriders really reach out into the community around the province and it works tremendous for them.

"Saskatchewan has a small population, but it's one of the most successful CFL teams both on the field and from a financial standpoint. It makes sense to me that if someone wanted to establish a CFL team in the Atlantic provinces they would be the model to follow."

There's a larger population within 2.5 hours of Moncton than Regina.

[SHOFEAR]

"Saskatchewan has a small population, but it's one of the most successful CFL teams both on the field and from a financial standpoint.

oh Really? Weren't the Riders under a mound of debt and they have only recently become profitable (what team isn't profitable when they are winning).

[newflyer]

Originally Posted by SHOFEAR

oh Really? Weren't the Riders under a mound of debt and they have only recently become profitable (what team isn't profitable when they are winning).

In fact the Riders were very close to folding in 87. They were publicly pleading fans to buy tickets to keep the team afloat, could barely attract flies ... but winning the cup in 89 definately reset the provinces pride in the team.

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by newflyer

In fact the Riders were very close to folding in 87. They were publicly pleading fans to buy tickets to keep the team afloat, could barely attract flies ... but winning the cup in 89 definately reset the provinces pride in the team.

If you also remember, Saskatchewan as a whole was in a long period of decline as well though, and there generally wasn't a feeling of pride about the place then, let alone a team that bore the name. Now, however, the province has turned around, as has the football team at the same time, and the marketing of the football team has amped up in recent years to really turn it into more of a "go for the experience" rather than "go to see wins", so my guess is they are hoping that if lean years come back for the win column, there will still be that crazy stadium feeling. It really was sort of a perfect storm for the teams huge jump in popularity and success... just as Saskatchewan was ramping up, so did the Riders. So you had provincial pride going through a rebirth and reaching new highs, and Rider Pride riding that coat-tail a bit, then creating their own wave with a Grey Cup win.

Also, the success they often talk about I think is more of the fact that they survived 100 years. Through depressions and serious outward migration in the province, and that's where you get a lot of the pride now too. The "we're still here" and now it's more of a "we're really here". Telethons were held to support the Riders and keep the franchise alive, and while some may see this as a weak spot, I consider it a strength. Sure, what happened to lead to that situation isn't a strength, but the people rallied around the team and made sure it survived to fight another year. It's definitely not storied in the way that the Habs are a storied franchise, but sheer will to survive is a different sense of storied history.

[Finiteman]

Originally Posted by CFL-EXPANDER

WINNIPEG STADIUM - The structure is 45 million, the balance 60 to 80 million is all the amenities and infrastructure cost.

All the bells and whistles and luxuries spouted.

The dome info I've seen is much simpler, making it realistic.

But they do have plans for a much more attractive tiered stadium with its own bells and whistles, the final layout will depend on the funding made available.

The bodies handling this start out with plan A, with options for plan B or C. Instead of starting with the pie in the sky and down grading they like to up grade.

Does that make sense?

I haven't been on in a while but I recognized the pictures CFL-EXPANDER posted. They are from a site out of my territory in Texas. Monolithic dome builders.

I ran accross the site a few years back and I too am a fan of the concept. I share his thinking on why it could make sense in Halifax. I don't know if a Texas builder would have the expertise to handle builing in snowy Canada, but we are pretty good at everything and I agree in theory a dome could makes sense in this situation.

Hopefully my argument will be a little better fleshed out.

First lets get some links and images up.

Here is the site, specifically the page dealing with their largest domes, the Crenospheres>

http://www.monolithic.com/stories/th...enosphere-dome

And here are some pictures of what it might look like as well as construction details.







A 500 Ft. diameter by 125 Ft height Crenosphere could seat 24,000 for football and a 600 ft. could sit up to 50,000.

Finally a page on one of the slightly smaller domes so you can see what something like that might look like from the outside. Pretty nice and likely to look good over time too.



http://www.monolithic.com/stories/pa...thletic-center

Domes get a bad rep because the big domes of the past were ill-concieved and poorly executed. There are good reasons to consider domes.

If you build a 24k seat outdoor stadium and 3 games have really bad weather, your CFL team might fail. They could drop below 20K for season attendance.

It you build a larger 35K stadium, the size of the stadium might discourage crowds in the early days of the team.

A Dome ensures that weather would be much less of an issue. Building a dome on the smallish side (capacity-wise) would enable regular sellouts (like Montreal) to keep ticket demand high, allowing the building of a fan base.

Plus a dome would be noisy.

Idaho's kibbie dome only seats about 17k but is as loud as a 50K stadium when it is full. A dome can really help a smaller community compete.

The tradeoff is no Grey Cup vs. having a reliably filled stadium that would allow Halifax to have (and keep) a CFL team.

If the CFL was my target, I'd stongly consider going with the larger 600 ft dome and start with 25K capacity and a fair amount of luxury suites. I'd have it designed where expansion would be relatively cheap and easy to do.

[mylesmalley]

Neat concept, but it seems like there'd be a huge amount of wasted space in a spherical stadium like that.

[Nathan]

Keep in mind too that the dome there is using an American football field as the measuring sttick so your capacity with a Canadian field will be reduced quite a bit. Also... I really don't think a stadium like that would be a thing of pride for the community... It's really generic and in my opinion quite ugly. And as you were saying, if they build a dome too small there would be no Grey Cups there and the Grey Cup is a big money maker now and owners and cities definitely want it.

[fenwick16]

It would make sense to have a stadium that is built so that a self supported fabric dome could be added in the future. It would likely have to be heated during periods of heavy snow fall to keep snow from accumulating on the roof. This is different than air supported and monolithic cement domes which I personally dislike.

In the future there might be designs available that could be set up only during the winter and removed during the warmer months. Not an expensive retractable dome but a dome that could be assembled in say a day or two and cover the entire stadium and not just the playing surface as is planned for the new Winnipeg stadium.

[SHOFEAR]

christ, just about every US city has imploaded domes that look a hell of a lot better than that.

It really was sort of a perfect storm for the teams huge jump in popularity and success

Exactly. It took a perfect storm for that franchise to be profitable. As much as I want the CFL to expand to a market in the east coast, comparing yourself to such a franchise scares the hell out of me. This league cant afford another team that struggles to pay the bills 7 years out of 10.

[MonctonRad]

This is about the most butt-fuckin' ugly dome I've ever seen. I can't imagine the heritage trust allowing this monstrosity to be built on the commons.......

[SHOFEAR]

Welcome to 1961. Starting lineup for the Halifax X to include, Normie Kwong and Russ Jackson.



http://germantramps.files.wordpress....lon-arena2.jpg

[Finiteman]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

This is about the most butt-fuckin' ugly dome I've ever seen. I can't imagine the heritage trust allowing this monstrosity to be built on the commons.......

No disagreement from me on that one, but the other one I reposted to me is pretty nice, if unspectacular, and somewhat low profile.

Again, the question you have to ask is a weather one. How many games' attendance would you reasonably expect weather to skunk? 1 game out of the 9 regular season games? 4 ?

I don't live in Halifax, so I cannot give an educated answer to that. My dome pushing is based on a pure guess that you might have attendance cut in half for 2-3 games based on weather. That could easily be enough to put a CFL expansion franchise on life support.

If you have a 24K stadium and you normally draw 20-22K how many games can you afford to have skunked by weather out of your 9 game schedule to still hit your breakeven point of 20K?

Keep in mind if you build it too big it will hurt the scarcity of the tickets reducing demand. That has hurt CFL teams like Ottawa and montreal in the past. Keeping a degree of scarcity is a key to building up a regular fan base.

Are there prettier stadium options? Sure, but for smaller cities Domes can make a lot of sense as they eliminate weather driven poor turnouts that can sink a young franchise.

[someone123]

Not sure why there would have to be a cheap stadium in Halifax. The city has the money to build something decent, and rushing to build something terrible could easily be worse than doing nothing at all.

The Moncton hub city talk is really overblown. The economy there is doing fine but at the end of the day it's very small. People mention the retail hub thing but the reality is that it has far less retail than Halifax, less industrial space, a much smaller airport, no seaport, smaller economy even per capita, far fewer hotel rooms and less tourism capacity, far less of a national profile, etc. If it were a hub it would actually have stuff. It's basically equivalent to 2/3 of a Regina and a CFL franchise there would be anaemic due to the lack of local population and money.

Halifax itself isn't even a large city by Canadian standards and it is three times the size.

[SHOFEAR]

Again, the question you have to ask is a weather one. How many games' attendance would you reasonably expect weather to skunk? 1 game out of the 9 regular season games? 4 ?

There's something called season tickets....

Take a look at various games that correspond to aweful weather where walkup crowds are unlikely and that gives you an idea of season ticket base. Probably 75% of the average game crowd over the year is season tickets.

Besides that, if there is such a worry about a couple rain days a year being the difference in the franchise folding or staying afloat....the CFL would be better off not going there.

[MonctonRad]

The weather is better in Moncton than in Halifax......I know, I've lived in both places.

End of arguement......that alone justifies a Moncton CFL franchise.

[fenwick16]

I really think that Halifax needs an outdoor stadium not a dome. And even I wouldn't think of putting a cement dome on the commons. However, I think that Halifax needs most of the seats to be covered (just the stands not the entire stadium). This seems to be the direction of the new Canadian proposals and newer US stadiums.

[MonctonRad]

Moncton CFL game creating excitement
Published Monday February 1st, 2010

Toronto Argonauts' Michael Clemons hopes Touchdown Atlantic will be the start of something bigger
By NEIL HODGE
TIMES & TRANSCRIPT STAFF

When Michael (Pinball) Clemons speaks, people listen.

He's the long-time face of the Toronto Argonauts, a former star running back and one of the most popular figures in Canadian Football League history. With his fame and magnetic personality, people are drawn to him and his views are widely respected.

Clemons offers the CFL high praise for thinking outside the box with its decision to hold a regular season game in a non-traditional market. The Toronto Argonauts and Edmonton Eskimos will clash on Sept. 26 in Moncton, the league's first regular season game ever in Atlantic Canada.

"It's a strange thing to say, but for me this is the CFL going home," said Clemons. "The league is 100 years old and when we think about the Grey Cup it's the biggest event that happens in our country on a yearly basis.

"The league is one of the most significant Canadian cultural institutions that unites our country. When I say the league is going home after 100 years I mean we're completing it because to be truly Canadian it has to represent all of who we are.

"The Atlantic provinces shouldn't simply have a favourite team from Quebec, Ontario or somewhere out west. The league needs to play games in the Atlantic region. I absolutely love the direction the league is taking in moving a regular season game to Moncton."

Toronto and Edmonton will make history together when they do battle in a 2 p.m. kickoff at the new Stade Moncton 2010 Stadium, which will have a 20,000 capacity for this game.

The CFL is releasing its 2010 regular season schedule today. The game in Moncton will surely draw plenty of national media attention because the league is venturing into new territory.

The game here will be officially known as Touchdown Atlantic, a name that fans chose in a contest organized by the Times & Transcript. There will be a mini Grey Cup festival atmosphere with a few days of community events around the game.

Information on tickets for the game will be announced in early March. Fans can register at CFL.ca/Moncton to receive the latest information when it becomes available.

Toronto, founded in 1873, is North America's oldest professional sports franchise and it has captured 15 Grey Cups. The Argonauts are looking to rebound after finishing at the bottom of the league at 3-9 last season.

Edmonton has been the most dominant team in the CFL's modern era, winning 13 Grey Cups since the club was founded in 1949. The Eskimos are coming off a 9-9 season and they're gearing up to host the 2010 Grey Cup.

"When you look at where this game falls on the schedule, it's an important time in the regular season," said Brent Scrimshaw, co-chairman of the host committee. "It's a game that could have playoff implications.

"Toronto is the home team for this game and I know they want to have the crowd behind them. The Spirit of Edmonton, the Eskimos booster club, has already been in contact and I know there will be a significant Edmonton presence here also."

The CFL will have nine teams when Ottawa hits the field in 2013.

Moncton is looking to host one or two regular season games per year for the next several years to build fan excitement throughout the Atlantic region. It may also help build corporate support and peak the interest of potential owners for a franchise here some day.

"I hope that some day we will have a team in the Atlantic provinces," said Clemons. "I see this game in Moncton as very important. My hope is that it's a first step, not a final step.

"I think 10 teams would be perfect for the league. The Atlantic provinces are an important part of who we are as a nation. I think this is completing the puzzle if we can have an Atlantic team some day."

Clemons established a dozen Toronto franchise records during his 12-year CFL career that ended in 2000. He set a pro football record for most career combined yards with 25,396.

He later took over as head coach of the Argonauts and compiled a career record of 68-55-1. He now has a front-office job as the club's vice-chairman.

What will the Argonauts and Eskimos think of coming to play a game in Moncton?

"It will be something fresh for them," said Clemons. "It will be exciting. The players will feel important because they'll know they're taking part in something special. The guys will walk on the field that day in Moncton knowing that they're making history."