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  #1121  
Old Posted May 13, 2016, 5:02 AM
SOSS SOSS is offline
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Check the final page on this document. First time I have seen anything about Rapid Transit on the north shore. This would be incredible post Broadway and Surrey expansions. Although purely conceptual it is exciting to see it at least at this level. Note: Hastings, Lions Gate Bridge, service to all major current hubs along 3rd/Marine and Lonsdale to Lynn Valley.

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  #1122  
Old Posted May 13, 2016, 6:58 AM
sweetnhappy sweetnhappy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOSS View Post
Check the final page on this document. First time I have seen anything about Rapid Transit on the north shore. This would be incredible post Broadway and Surrey expansions. Although purely conceptual it is exciting to see it at least at this level. Note: Hastings, Lions Gate Bridge, service to all major current hubs along 3rd/Marine and Lonsdale to Lynn Valley.

Link
Wow... the North Shore Line (and portions of the Hastings Line) on my fantasy map so closely parallels the Rapid Transit 2040 lines between Phibbs, Dundarave, and Lynn Valley Centre (without me being aware of it before now - though the feedback I received may have been influenced by it).

I do wonder how the connection between Phibbs and the Hastings B-Line will be implemented, even if it is initially done with a B-Line (no HOV/bus lanes on the Iron Workers Memorial). Also wondering about the east-west connection between Waterfront and Highway 1... will that be necessary given the Hastings B-Line immediately to the south?
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  #1123  
Old Posted May 13, 2016, 8:02 AM
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Migrant_Coconut Migrant_Coconut is offline
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Originally Posted by sweetnhappy View Post
Wow... the North Shore Line (and portions of the Hastings Line) on my fantasy map so closely parallels the Rapid Transit 2040 lines between Phibbs, Dundarave, and Lynn Valley Centre (without me being aware of it before now - though the feedback I received may have been influenced by it).
Not to put you or TransLink down, but it's basic common sense - always put rapid transit on/near the main roads. Grand Boulevard and Lynn Valley Road too, if it were practical - that 50m wide green strip beside GB practically screams "right of way."

Quote:
I do wonder how the connection between Phibbs and the Hastings B-Line will be implemented, even if it is initially done with a B-Line (no HOV/bus lanes on the Iron Workers Memorial).
The traffic jams will probably be seen as a necessary evil. After all, riders on the 99 (myself included) spend half the trip stuck in traffic, and everybody just takes it in stride. Not to mention that a Willingdon line will probably be in the works by then (Priority #3 after Broadway and Surrey/Langley), so it won't be a problem for very long.
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  #1124  
Old Posted May 13, 2016, 7:58 PM
sweetnhappy sweetnhappy is offline
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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
Not to mention that a Willingdon line will probably be in the works by then (Priority #3 after Broadway and Surrey/Langley), so it won't be a problem for very long.
Is that a documented priority, which I just don't remember or didn't read about? It's my thinking that there are other upcoming/existing B-Lines or Express routes that could have a higher priority (i.e. 41/43 from Joyce to UBC or the 135/95 on Hastings), though I don't mean to trivialize or downplay the need for a north-south line in western Burnaby.
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  #1125  
Old Posted May 13, 2016, 9:13 PM
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Migrant_Coconut Migrant_Coconut is offline
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Originally Posted by sweetnhappy View Post
Is that a documented priority, which I just don't remember or didn't read about? It's my thinking that there are other upcoming/existing B-Lines or Express routes that could have a higher priority (i.e. 41/43 from Joyce to UBC or the 135/95 on Hastings), though I don't mean to trivialize or downplay the need for a north-south line in western Burnaby.
Guesswork, mostly. Like you said, west Burnaby (Brentwood, BCIT, Metrotown, River District) could use a proper north-south line. There's also a need for a such a line to bisect the Expo/Millennium loop, so that's another reason. Plus the North Shore is the last major region not covered by SkyTrain, so there's a political reason too.

Even 10 years from now, 41st will be at the back of the list politically ("The West Side already got their SkyTrain, it's our turn!") and practically ("We still haven't even gotten the Millennium to UBC - a B-Line from Joyce/Collingwood should be fine for now.").
Hastings might go first, but it would also be more efficient as a B-Line until a north-south SkyTrain anchors it further east.

The only other priorities I can see are either a Port Coq-Surrey Line or a Phase 2 extension to UBC. Even if a Willingdon Line is #3 (and I can't see it as anything less), given the average of one rapid transit project a decade - that's 20 years, plus 5-10 for the current Broadway/Langley lines - by 2040, it should be either in planning or under construction.

Last edited by Migrant_Coconut; May 13, 2016 at 9:26 PM.
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  #1126  
Old Posted May 14, 2016, 12:48 AM
officedweller officedweller is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOSS View Post
Check the final page on this document. First time I have seen anything about Rapid Transit on the north shore. This would be incredible post Broadway and Surrey expansions. Although purely conceptual it is exciting to see it at least at this level. Note: Hastings, Lions Gate Bridge, service to all major current hubs along 3rd/Marine and Lonsdale to Lynn Valley.

Link
Nice find!

Since the 90s, a North Shore SkyTrain line has been touted as crossing at 2nd Narrows.
The Lions Gate route aligns with a prohibition on cars on Lions Gate (if that ever happens).

I wonder is the Seabus would be replaced or if it would constitute "rapid transit" given lits slow crossing time.
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  #1127  
Old Posted May 14, 2016, 3:26 AM
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Originally Posted by officedweller View Post
Nice find!


I wonder is the Seabus would be replaced or if it would constitute "rapid transit" given lits slow crossing time.
It is certainly mass transit, but I agree it's not really rapid.
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  #1128  
Old Posted May 14, 2016, 5:55 AM
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Originally Posted by officedweller View Post
The Lions Gate route aligns with a prohibition on cars on Lions Gate (if that ever happens).
As much as I'd like to see that, it's inherently attached to a Third Crossing. Which in turn is about as likely to happen as Taylor Swift converting to Islam.

Quote:
I wonder is the Seabus would be replaced or if it would constitute "rapid transit" given lits slow crossing time.
At least it's faster than going all the way around?
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  #1129  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2016, 10:24 PM
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I figured I'd post this here. I've commented before that people should e-mail some of their transit maps to TransLink - every so often they reply back (this was about a Surrey bus and Skytrain map)
Quote:
Thank you for your thought-provoking network change proposals. We appreciate the considerable amounts of work you put into your e-mails, and your willingness to tackle some of the tough tradeoffs inherent in transit network design. We have been keeping your comments on hand for reference for when we review the transit network, and we will do the same for your latest Surrey work.

You've identified a lot of ways in which we can move towards a frequent grid system of transit routes, which would allow us to serve a wider variety of trips and destinations. You are probably also aware that we have not had funding to expand the transit network since 2012. Instead, we focus on adjusting the service we provide to ensure we are making the best use of our existing budget.
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  #1130  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2016, 10:48 PM
twoNeurons twoNeurons is offline
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Originally Posted by SOSS View Post
It is certainly mass transit, but I agree it's not really rapid.
faster than swimming.
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  #1131  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2016, 2:17 AM
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The North Shore Area Transit Plan is not new, it's almost 4 years old now all the documents can be found here http://www.translink.ca/en/Plans-and...nsit-Plan.aspx
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  #1132  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2016, 5:00 AM
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The North Shore Area Transit Plan is not new, it's almost 4 years old now all the documents can be found here http://www.translink.ca/en/Plans-and...nsit-Plan.aspx
While I wish TransLink luck, they're not going to make any significant progress in changing people's commutes until the North Shore gets Skytrain at both crossings.
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  #1133  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2016, 5:48 PM
BCPhil BCPhil is offline
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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
While I wish TransLink luck, they're not going to make any significant progress in changing people's commutes until the North Shore gets Skytrain at both crossings.
They'll have to wait a pretty long time. Just the population of Surrey is about double the population of the entire North Shore. Just the population of Guildford towncentre is more than North Vancouver City and Newton is more than North Van District.

You would get a better ROI turning the Surrey LRT1 plan (LRT on all 3 routes) into 3 spurs of Skytrain. Hell, you would get a better ROI by building poorly planned LRT to more places in Surrey like South Surrey and Strawberry Hill and Scott Road corridor than Skytrain on much of the North Shore.

The largest pocket of density on the North Shore (Lonsdale) already has pretty good rapid transit in the form of the Seabus, which provides a speedy enough trip to downtown. They just need to increase the frequency and the frequency of the bus network feeding the seabus. 10 minute headways with 3 ferries makes it very comparable to the 6 or 7 minute headways you see in Surrey and Richmond for most of the day.

The real problem is North Vancouver has had terrible road planning over the years. The city really should have preserved a 6 lane ROW for Marine Way instead of letting buildings encroach on the ONLY road that passes east-west. They could easily have had bus only lanes that would provide much more reliable service today instead of the traffic snarled nightmare that buses get caught in today.

The zones slated for future density are still fairly close to Lonsdale, which means that if they had properly reserved space for road ROW, they could have cheaply built streetcar in dedicated lanes to feed these areas to the Seabus instead of now needing billions in subway investment.

Recreating the original streetcar network on the North Shore in dedicated lanes would be more than enough to provide convenient rapid transit to the Seabus and encourage future density in proper areas near the North Vancouver core.

Last edited by BCPhil; Jun 14, 2016 at 6:06 PM.
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  #1134  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2016, 6:24 PM
nname nname is offline
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Just a note from the plan:
Rapid = includes SkyTrain, LRT, BRT, B-Line, express bus with frequent all day service, etc
Frequent = part of frequent transit network

For north shore's case, the "Rapid" just means B-Line, BRT, express bus, and frequent all-day seabus service. There is no rail transit planned.

The entire document is here:
http://www.translink.ca/-/media/Docu...SE2_Report.pdf
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  #1135  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2016, 7:12 PM
Kisai Kisai is offline
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Originally Posted by nname View Post
Just a note from the plan:
Rapid = includes SkyTrain, LRT, BRT, B-Line, express bus with frequent all day service, etc
Frequent = part of frequent transit network

For north shore's case, the "Rapid" just means B-Line, BRT, express bus, and frequent all-day seabus service. There is no rail transit planned.

The entire document is here:
http://www.translink.ca/-/media/Docu...SE2_Report.pdf
I don't think it would ever be viable to run any rail on the North Shore. The topology isn't friendly to rail (look at where the existing rail line is.)
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  #1136  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2016, 8:30 PM
BCPhil BCPhil is offline
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Originally Posted by nname View Post
Just a note from the plan:
Rapid = includes SkyTrain, LRT, BRT, B-Line, express bus with frequent all day service, etc
Frequent = part of frequent transit network

For north shore's case, the "Rapid" just means B-Line, BRT, express bus, and frequent all-day seabus service. There is no rail transit planned.

The entire document is here:
http://www.translink.ca/-/media/Docu...SE2_Report.pdf
I know that, but the topic of bringing Skytrain to the North Shore is a forum favorite.

But even as a rapid bus Bline, service in North Vancouver city won't be that rapid thanks to the congestion they have created on Marine. In the PM rush, from McKay to Fell (towards Lonsdale away from the bridge) the bus takes over 10 minutes. And they haven't done transit riders many favors around Lonsdale exchange itself, making buses loop their way through a heavy pedestrian area with no controlled access.

The other problem with the North Shore are all the long distance bus routes that serve a small number of people directly to downtown. It's a lot of resources tied up in long distance trips so a few people can get single seat rides mostly serving areas that are not slated to become higher density. They should all meet at the exchanges near the LGB and 2NB and transfer to a B line, or to the Seabus for travel downtown.

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Originally Posted by Kisai View Post
I don't think it would ever be viable to run any rail on the North Shore. The topology isn't friendly to rail (look at where the existing rail line is.)
That didn't stop them with turn of the centure technology a hundred years ago. North Vancouver had quite the streetcar network (good coverage for only 3 lines) and is pretty much the city it is today because of the streetcar legacy. Sure there were a few incidents of streetcars running away down the hill and plunging into Burrard Inlet, but I'm sure present technology could mitigate that risk.

That said, there will probably never be a return to those days, mostly because there isn't room to lay the tracks anymore. The city of North Vancouver is fairly compact, and current and future high density zones are on the corridors that were once streetcar tracks, but they haven't left themselves any room.
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  #1137  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2016, 5:58 AM
SOSS SOSS is offline
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Having the Iron Workers Memorial Bridge as part of my daily commute that I have taken as both a transit rider and a SOV driver I've had a lot of time to think of some possible changes that can be made to get traffic moving. My focus is on "cheap" queue jumping lanes for transit vehicles. Hopefully this link works. Here is my breakdown:

1. North Shore Off-ramp: add a bus-only off-ramp that falls inside the current off-ramp radius and tucks under the highway flyover connecting directly to the existing Phibbs Exchange. There is already room for a roadway under the flyover as it was designed for transit only connections to both sides of the highway.

2. North Shore On-ramp: add a new bridge flyover that goes over Main St. This would basically follow the existing onramp design from Phibbs except with a new flyover people traveling from Main Street south would have to merge into the transit traffic instead of transit traffic having to merge into the middle travel lane of the Iron Workers Memorial traffic.

3. South Shore Off-ramp: add a new lane beginning after the eastbound McGill St. on-ramp and continuing along the Cassiar Connector with a left turn at Franklin Street for easy access to Kootenay Loop.

4. South Shore On-ramp: add a new transit only connector from North Cassiar Street to the McGill northbound on-ramp. To prevent non-buses from using this connection a bus trap may be needed as is used in Calgary and Edmonton.

Thoughts?

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Lh...Bc&usp=sharing

I've thrown in a some rapid transit lines too. One from basically Ambleside to Deep Cove and another snaking up from Quay to Lynn Valley. With gondola transit to Capilano University.

Last edited by SOSS; Jun 18, 2016 at 6:40 AM.
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  #1138  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2016, 4:34 PM
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I don't think the off ramps are really necessary. The transit on ramp from Hastings is an interesting idea. I think that would probably make the biggest difference of all the on/off ramps you've proposed
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  #1139  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2016, 10:13 PM
trofirhen trofirhen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kisai View Post
I don't think it would ever be viable to run any rail on the North Shore. The topology isn't friendly to rail (look at where the existing rail line is.)
True. And to join the Canada Line to the Bottom of Lonsdale is through the deepest part of the harbour. Rail to the North Shore might be possible as part of a third crossing; which is doubtful
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  #1140  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2016, 10:32 PM
gkz gkz is offline
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A north shore line doesn't need to be tunnelled necessarily - incoming crazy idea:

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Originally Posted by gkz View Post
I've been thinking about a North Shore rapid transit line, and I think I've come up with a solution:

Replace one of the Lions Gate's vehicle lanes with a single Skytrain track, with alternating directions!

The North Shore desperately needs rapid transit - it suffers from horrible traffic problems.

Tunnelling or bridging a new line over the Burrard Inlet is a very expensive proposition - an existing crossing must be used for rapid transit to be feasible. The Second Narrows alignment is not ideal due to its distance from downtown.

An alignment over the Lions Gate bridge would be the best - however, the bridge cannot support more weight - it cannot add another deck to support rapid transit.

Solution: replace one of the existing vehicle lanes with a single track Skytrain line. This should keep things within the weight allowed, cost much less then building a new crossing, and reduce vehicle traffic (which the City of Vancouver wants) while simultaneously creating an attractive alternative.


Would a single track over the bridge work?

The span, including the South, Central, and North spans is 847m. (a separate two track guide-way could be built next to the viaduct portion).

The Bombardier Innovia Metro 300 (the newest Skytrain car being bought for the Evergreen line) has a top speed of 100km/h. Let's assume it will not be travelling at that top speed.

847m
at 60km/h = 51s
at 70km/h = 44s
at 80km/h = 38s

Let's assume 60km/h, and add a 10s buffer. That means the crossing is passable in 1m in each direction, in other words supporting a 2 minute headway (every two minutes, both directions can cross)! Even with more buffer room or slower speeds, this is still more frequent than most of the system's other lines.

How it would work:

Thankfully the Skytrain system is automated - this would be difficult with a human driver.
Simply, the system would be timed so that only one train in one direction uses the single track portion at a time. First, a train would travel north across the single track, and then go back on the double track guide-way next to the viaduct. At this time (after a safety buffer time), a south-bound train would enter the single track, and then exit south of the bridge onto a two track guide-way.


Would it be able to fit?

The current lane widths are 3.6m

The Bombardier Innovia Metro 300 is 2.65m wide

If 3.6m is not enough, the other lanes could be narrowed down to 3m (their original width was 2.9m) for a maximum total right of way of 4.8m.


Would it be too heavy?

One Bombardier car weighs 20,500kg. Compare to one 60 foot bus that Translink currently uses at 19,000kg. Currently, one lane of the bridge could be entirely filled with motor vehicles, totalling in the hundreds of thousands of kilograms - while in our case, only a single train with 2 to 4 cars would be on the "lane" at a time.


Why this alignment?

Here is a concept alignment:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?m...o.kyJD1KKTdMd4)

The North Shore rapid transit project could directly connect Downtown with Coal Harbour (and the undeserved West End), Stanley Park and the Aquarium, with North Shore destinations such as Park Royal (and the Park Royal bus exchange), Capilano Mall, and Lonsdale (and the Lonsdale bus loop). Park Royal could house a park and ride for commuters throughout the area.


Construction downtime?

The time between the closure of the third vehicle travel lane, and the opening of the rapid transit line, will be critical for traffic. Thus, it would make sense to do this part last, so that as soon as it is completed the entire line can open.
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