VIA Rail network developments

[DTcrawler]

So is Ottawa guaranteed to be included on the alignment? Or is that up to the bidders to decide in their proposals? I'm not too well-versed in this HFR project but I saw that Alstom submitted a separate HSR proposal that excluded Ottawa.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by DTcrawler

So is Ottawa guaranteed to be included on the alignment? Or is that up to the bidders to decide in their proposals? I'm not too well-versed in this HFR project but I saw that Alstom submitted a separate HSR proposal that excluded Ottawa.

Ottawa's included in the Alstom HSR proposal. There just not adding HSR tracks since VIA already owns all the tracks within Ottawa.


https://www.highspeedrailcanada.com/...io-Quebec.html

From my understanding, Ottawa and Quebec City have to be included, but an Ottawa by-pass (so express Montreal-Toronto) is allowed.

[Truenorth00]

Alstom (or any other rolling stock provider) haven't been included in any of the qualified consortia. So I'm not sure what value the Alstom proposal holds right now.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Alstom (or any other rolling stock provider) haven't been included in any of the qualified consortia. So I'm not sure what value the Alstom proposal holds right now.

CDPQ owns 17.5% of Alstom, so you better believe their team will likely include Alstom vehicles if they win.

[originalmuffins]

I really hope they don't do an Ottawa bypass. It is better than Ottawa is built into the network in all routes between Quebec and Toronto.

[originalmuffins]

But I'm glad we are getting traction on this. Great news to have today.

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

CDPQ owns 17.5% of Alstom, so you better believe their team will likely include Alstom vehicles if they win.

We should all pray like hell the cadence group doesn't win. Death, taxes, and SNC lavalin screwing up everything it touches... bet on it.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by originalmuffins

I really hope they don't do an Ottawa bypass. It is better than Ottawa is built into the network in all routes between Quebec and Toronto.

If they build the bypass, I could see them implementing subpar service through Ottawa, not to mention it would be far more expensive for probably 30 minute savings.

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

We should all pray like hell the cadence group doesn't win. Death, taxes, and SNC lavalin screwing up everything it touches... bet on it.

To be fair, everyone seems incompetent now, not just SNC. I don't think SNC's involved in the Valley Line in Edmonton or the Crosstown in Toronto, both projects with major issues and delays. SNC was involved in the Canada Line and now in the REM, both well managed projects.

Other train manufacturers have problematic products as well, not just Alstom.

[SkeggsEggs]

Pretty sure one of the minimum goals of the project is 90 minute savings on Toronto-Ottawa. So can't imagine any world where Ottawa is completely bypassed.

The big PDF from 2022 mentions Major Cities consistently and that includes Ottawa.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by SkeggsEggs

Pretty sure one of the minimum goals of the project is 90 minute savings on Toronto-Ottawa. So can't imagine any world where Ottawa is completely bypassed.

The big PDF from 2022 mentions Major Cities consistently and that includes Ottawa.

The idea that Ottawa would be completely bypassed is FUD. There is talk that there might be some express trains that bypass Ottawa, but Ottawa would gain fast/frequent service to both Montreal and Toronto.

[Acajack]

Yes it would be ridiculous to bypass it.

Probably three quarters of the population between Toronto and Montreal is in the Ottawa(-Gatineau) area.

BTW the 401 when it was built should have veered northwards into the Ottawa area as well.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yes it would be ridiculous to bypass it.

Probably three quarters of the population between Toronto and Montreal is in the Ottawa(-Gatineau) area.

BTW the 401 when it was built should have veered northwards into the Ottawa area as well.

It’d have been a significant detour.
A better option would have been converting Highway 7 into 401 then, but the problem with that option was that the population density was (and has always been) along Old Highway 2.
On Highway 2, there’s big places like Belleville and Kingston, whereas Highway 7 has pretty much nothing east of Peterborough.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

It’d have been a significant detour.
A better option would have been converting Highway 7 into 401 then, but the problem with that option was that the population density was (and has always been) along Old Highway 2.
On Highway 2, there’s big places like Belleville and Kingston, whereas Highway 7 has pretty much nothing east of Peterborough.

I have heard a million times that the real reason Ottawa was bypassed by the 401 was because Ottawa tended to vote Liberal and that Ontario was governed by the Big Blue Machine for the entire period.

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

To be fair, everyone seems incompetent now, not just SNC. I don't think SNC's involved in the Valley Line in Edmonton or the Crosstown in Toronto, both projects with major issues and delays. SNC was involved in the Canada Line and now in the REM, both well managed projects.

Other train manufacturers have problematic products as well, not just Alstom.

I don't necessarily have a problem with Alstom. There's clearly big issues with the Citadis Spirit, but the Avelia Liberty, which is what Alstom is pitching for this project, seems like a more proven platform. As for SNC, I admit the Canada Line is a bright spot on an otherwise dismal track record. REM is also looking promising so far, but I'll hold judgement until it proves itself in revenue service.

But regardless of SNC's track record, my disdain and complete lack of faith in them mostly comes from my first hand experience in seeing how they operate behind the scenes on big capital projects like this. All I will say is that I've seen a direct comparison in how they and another major builder go about building similar projects and it is truly night and day.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

I don't necessarily have a problem with Alstom. There's clearly big issues with the Citadis Spirit, but the Avelia Liberty, which is what Alstom is pitching for this project, seems like a more proven platform.

Proven? How so? The first Avelia Liberty trainset was supposed to enter revenue service in early 2022, but all of the trainsets built so far are sitting idle in Amtrak's Race Street Yard, waiting for Alstom to fix the issues with them. Granted many of the issues are compatibility issues with the track and catenary on the North East Corridor, but it is hard to call something proven if it has yet to enter revenue service.

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Proven? How so? The first Avelia Liberty trainset was supposed to enter revenue service in early 2022, but all of the trainsets built so far are sitting idle in Amtrak's Race Street Yard, waiting for Alstom to fix the issues with them. Granted many of the issues are compatibility issues with the track and catenary on the North East Corridor, but it is hard to call something proven if it has yet to enter revenue service.

You're right, the Liberty itself is unproven, but it was my understanding that the Avelia platform has been in use in Europe for a few years now - that's what I meant by "proven". Ultimately, that might not mean much given that the citadis platform was also proven, and yet the spirit has not lived up to that expected standard.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

You're right, the Liberty itself is unproven, but it was my understanding that the Avelia platform has been in use in Europe for a few years now - that's what I meant by "proven". Ultimately, that might not mean much given that the citadis platform was also proven, and yet the spirit has not lived up to that expected standard.

European rail requirements are substantially different from North American requirements. Anything proven in Europe means nothing. Substantial changes need to be made for any North American models.

As more rail is implemented in North America, we will see more proven North American rail models. The North American market is still not mature and likely won't be for another 10 or 20 years.

[DarthVader_1961]

I hope improvements come soon…. Just spent 12 hours on a train from Sarnia to via.. to be fair, there was a delay just after Toronto as work was being done for go train stuff.

40 minute stop in Toronto , basically get off one train and onto another. Never even got into union station.

Sarnia to Toronto had 9 stops for the 290 km trip. No grade separation any where on this trip.

Toronto to Ottawa had 12 stops , might be off on the count, very little grade separation, if any that I recall.

We are in the dark ages in this country

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by DarthVader_1961

I hope improvements come soon…. Just spent 12 hours on a train from Sarnia to via.. to be fair, there was a delay just after Toronto as work was being done for go train stuff.

40 minute stop in Toronto , basically get off one train and onto another. Never even got into union station.

Sarnia to Toronto had 9 stops for the 290 km trip. No grade separation any where on this trip.

Toronto to Ottawa had 12 stops , might be off on the count, very little grade separation, if any that I recall.

We are in the dark ages in this country

Not sure. That's a 7 hour trip by car. Our low income, gas and excise taxes mean most have a private vehicle and it's only one $100 tank of gas for that journey.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Not sure. That's a 7 hour trip by car. Our low income, gas and excise taxes mean most have a private vehicle and it's only one $100 tank of gas for that journey.

To be fair it is 7 hours assuming relatively light traffic and not making any stops. While some can drive for 7 hours without a break, most can’t. The fastest route also likely involves using the 407 and its exorbitant toll.