Regina | New Mosaic Stadium

[Bdog]

Originally Posted by prairieguy

So, no precedent has been set in terms of Fed support for a sport/entertainment facility. I cannot imagine Regina, as a city, being able or willing to come up with the $215 million for a domed stadium, nor do I suspect that there would be provincial support for Provincial tax dollars of up to $215 million going towards a facility. Time for plan B...does anyone know what that might be?? There is def need for a new facility, but what is the scaled down version??

Well, as Migs has stated several times, the project will go ahead as-is regardless of fed support. It should be interesting to see if that's the case when the supposed deadline of Feb. 28th rolls around...

[djforsberg]

Originally Posted by prairieguy

There was just an announcement in Quebec that they are proceeding with an arena with the cost split 50/50 between the Province and Quebec City. There is no federal funding in the mix (although the province indicated they would welcome Fed support or private support). The announcement indicated work on the arena would begin in the next few months.

So, no precedent has been set in terms of Fed support for a sport/entertainment facility. I cannot imagine Regina, as a city, being able or willing to come up with the $215 million for a domed stadium, nor do I suspect that there would be provincial support for Provincial tax dollars of up to $215 million going towards a facility. Time for plan B...does anyone know what that might be?? There is def need for a new facility, but what is the scaled down version??

Our stadium will have funding from the private sector. There is already $10 million from that hotel association with the rest (whatever amount that is) unannounced until the federal government makes their decision. Where is the private funding for the Quebec arena they were mentioning?

[Bdog]

Originally Posted by djforsberg

Our stadium will have funding from the private sector. There is already $10 million from that hotel association with the rest (whatever amount that is) unannounced until the federal government makes their decision. Where is the private funding for the Quebec arena they were mentioning?

^The only private funding mentioned in Quebec was the very vague "tens of millions" from Quebecor's CEO Peladeau (likely to be for naming rights and sponsorship)...

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by djforsberg

Our stadium will have funding from the private sector. There is already $10 million from that hotel association with the rest (whatever amount that is) unannounced until the federal government makes their decision. Where is the private funding for the Quebec arena they were mentioning?

Don't want to be a negative nelly because I think a new stadium in Regina is needed whether it is a covered stadium or not $10 million is really a drop in the bucket. If federal funding is not available, Regina will certainly be building a new stadium similar to what is currently being constructed in Winnipeg.

[djforsberg]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

Don't want to be a negative nelly because I think a new stadium in Regina is needed whether it is a covered stadium or not $10 million is really a drop in the bucket. If federal funding is not available, Regina will certainly be building a new stadium similar to what is currently being constructed in Winnipeg.

The hotel association won't be the only private partner in this.

[Migs]

Originally Posted by prairieguy

There was just an announcement in Quebec that they are proceeding with an arena with the cost split 50/50 between the Province and Quebec City. There is no federal funding in the mix (although the province indicated they would welcome Fed support or private support). The announcement indicated work on the arena would begin in the next few months.

** see post above...it was posted while I was drafting this post ***

So, no precedent has been set in terms of Fed support for a sport/entertainment facility. I cannot imagine Regina, as a city, being able or willing to come up with the $215 million for a domed stadium, nor do I suspect that there would be provincial support for Provincial tax dollars of up to $215 million going towards a facility. Time for plan B...does anyone know what that might be?? There is def need for a new facility, but what is the scaled down version??

There is no scaled down version. The project will go ahead with or without federal funding, heard it again today from another prominent official.

And anyone who actually thinks the Quebec arena is going to be split 50/50 between the city and province is delusional, they just have to get their business plan in order and submit it to the P3fund before they can be considered. For some reason people in Quebec think they can just get a blank cheque without a proposal or solid business plan.

[Migs]

Here are a couple of very good opinion articles relevent to the topic.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle1901419/

http://www.newstalk980.com/blogs/mur...n-i-the-colour

[Bdog]

Originally Posted by Migs

There is no scaled down version. The project will go ahead with or without federal funding, heard it again today from another prominent official.

This is what I don't understand. If the multi-purpose facility is to go ahead regardless of the Feds, what has been the hold-up in making the announcement? The Feasibility study was released almost a year ago, with all major players other than the feds "committed" since early summer. I realize that the lands will not be vacated for a while, but this severely puts into question the cost estimates, which were based on a construction start date of October 2010.

Also, does anyone know where the funding for affordable housing is coming from? It's been touted as of late as a major component of this project, and yet there is no funding for it included in the feasiblity study...

[Migs]

Originally Posted by Bdog

This is what I don't understand. If the multi-purpose facility is to go ahead regardless of the Feds, what has been the hold-up in making the announcement? The Feasibility study was released almost a year ago, with all major players other than the feds "committed" since early summer. I realize that the lands will not be vacated for a while, but this severely puts into question the cost estimates, which were based on a construction start date of October 2010

Remember not everything is done right in front of you, look behind the curtain. Right now the CPRailyards haven't even begun their relocation and construction of the new facility can't begin until summer of 2012 at the earliest. Right now there is hope that the P3 fund will come through with funding a portion, why would you resort to plan B when you still don't know for sure if a significant stakeholder will be on board or not, why burn the bridge? The end of February deadline was implimented to put pressure on the feds as well as shoring up the land with CP, now given the fact that its now evident that our project is being seriously considered, why cut off that possible source of funding? Like I said already, there is a plan B that will be implemented once we get final word from P3, until then regardless of any annoucement that is made, no shovel will hit the ground until at least summer '12.

[CCF]

Originally Posted by Bdog

This is what I don't understand. If the multi-purpose facility is to go ahead regardless of the Feds, what has been the hold-up in making the announcement? The Feasibility study was released almost a year ago, with all major players other than the feds "committed" since early summer. I realize that the lands will not be vacated for a while, but this severely puts into question the cost estimates, which were based on a construction start date of October 2010.

Also, does anyone know where the funding for affordable housing is coming from? It's been touted as of late as a major component of this project, and yet there is no funding for it included in the feasiblity study...

Rather simple answer don't you think?

If you plan to buy a new car, but there's a possibility that you can get funding from another source, other than your own wallet, wouldn't you wait?

Why would the City and Prov. spend more money than they have to if the Feds may potentially commit a portion.

[Bdog]

Originally Posted by Migs

Remember not everything is done right in front of you, look behind the curtain. Right now the CPRailyards haven't even begun their relocation and construction of the new facility can't begin until summer of 2012 at the earliest. Right now there is hope that the P3 fund will come through with funding a portion, why would you resort to plan B when you still don't know for sure if a significant stakeholder will be on board or not, why burn the bridge? The end of February deadline was implimented to put pressure on the feds as well as shoring up the land with CP, now given the fact that its now evident that our project is being seriously considered, why cut off that possible source of funding? Like I said already, there is a plan B that will be implemented once we get final word from P3, until then regardless of any annoucement that is made, no shovel will hit the ground until at least summer '12.

Fair enough Migs (and to CCF's point too). However, the most recent reports have stated that there will not likely be a definitive response from the feds before the February deadline. If that is the case, you've suggested that the project proceed anyway, with hopes that the feds contribute when they get their act together, right? If so, how is this any different than announcing this project last year, and then waiting for the feds to contribute later...

And while I agree that this proposal is much more advanced in the planning stages than Quebec's, there are still 2 major funding questions that haven't been answered:

First, the feasibility study's costs are based on construction starting in October 2010. The fact that construction can only start at the earliest 18 months past then, doesn't that raise some red flags? Shouldn't it have been known by the authors that the land would not be ready by last October? With the recent boom in construction, costs must be going up significantly by the month, no?

Second, in the past week or so, affordable housing has been touted as a main priority of this project. However, there is no mention of funding for this in the feasiblity study at all. Any idea who is paying for this component, and why such an integral part to the plan was neglected from the budget?

[Migs]

Originally Posted by Bdog

Fair enough Migs (and to CCF's point too). However, the most recent reports have stated that there will not likely be a definitive response from the feds before the February deadline. If that is the case, you've suggested that the project proceed anyway, with hopes that the feds contribute when they get their act together, right? If so, how is this any different than announcing this project last year, and then waiting for the feds to contribute later...

You're thinking a little too hard on this bdog. Its pretty simple, if the province went ahead and said there were building it anyways, that immediately deflates any pressure being put on the feds to come through with their portion of funding.

And while I agree that this proposal is much more advanced in the planning stages than Quebec's, there are still 2 major funding questions that haven't been answered:

First, the feasibility study's costs are based on construction starting in October 2010. The fact that construction can only start at the earliest 18 months past then, doesn't that raise some red flags? Shouldn't it have been known by the authors that the land would not be ready by last October? With the recent boom in construction, costs must be going up significantly by the month, no?

I am sure they aren't aware of that? Come on man, think for a second. Just because intricate details haven't been revealed in the press doesn' mean they aren't being worked on. Its common sense that the price will go up, might be why there are rumours that the feasibility study used worse-case scenario numbers to begin with. Projects this size with so many stakeholders are very fluid, patience is a virtue.

Second, in the past week or so, affordable housing has been touted as a main priority of this project. However, there is no mention of funding for this in the feasiblity study at all. Any idea who is paying for this component, and why such an integral part to the plan was neglected from the budget?

Once again, details will come to the surface on a need to know basis, read Murray Mandryks article from last week and you might get an idea of possible things that are on the table.

[Dalreg]

Ok, so lets play the number game then migs. What will be the cost? You have pegged 430 million in the past so thats your guess then :-), right?

Personally if this thing gets built, I am saying with infrastucture costs and the stadium costs, how about 666 million. Seems about right.

Oh and 2018 openinng.

[rypinion]

Originally Posted by Migs

Just because intricate details haven't been revealed in the press doesn' mean they aren't being worked on.

I think we need to give the Quebec arena proposal the same allowance then. They may have a full detailed business and construction plan, just not released for you to see.

[Bdog]

Originally Posted by Migs

You're thinking a little too hard on this bdog. Its pretty simple, if the province went ahead and said there were building it anyways, that immediately deflates any pressure being put on the feds to come through with their portion of funding.

Migs, you make it sound like delaying this project for months and months is somehow leveraging the province's position with the feds. If YOU know that the project is going ahead regardless of the feds, then the MPs of Saskatchewan must also know this as well. And since the project's plan B (moving forward with the project regardless of fed funding, you've claimed) has a february deadline, then the months and months of delay will have been for what? If the deadline passes, and the feds still haven't got an answer, what pressure what put on the feds?

I am sure they aren't aware of that? Come on man, think for a second. Just because intricate details haven't been revealed in the press doesn' mean they aren't being worked on. Its common sense that the price will go up, might be why there are rumours that the feasibility study used worse-case scenario numbers to begin with. Projects this size with so many stakeholders are very fluid, patience is a virtue.

Intricate details? Migs, these are tens of millions of dollars we're talking about here. I'm glad that you've finally admit that the price will go up though... And what are these rumours about worst-case scenario numbers being used? It certainly is not mentioned in the feasibility study. I guess PCL has worst-case scenario for steel, concrete, and labour or what?

Once again, details will come to the surface on a need to know basis, read Murray Mandryks article from last week and you might get an idea of possible things that are on the table.

Need to know basis? This project is being sold as a complete urban revitalization, with affordable housing a top priority Migs. This isn't a minor detail, this is supposedly a major component. I find it funny that you suggest I read Mandryk's article, considering you did everything you could to discredit him the last time I posted an article by him, in which his opinion differed from yours.

You can disregard my points all you want, with your eye-rolling smilies and sarcastic remarks. However, I'm raising legitimate questions here Migs, and I hope other posters here see that.

Interestingly, Fiacco says he doesn't support using gas tax money for the stadium: http://www.newstalk650.com/story/20110210/46900

[SHOFEAR]

For what it's worth early predictions for the costs increases for 2012 are 10-15% for steel and 25% concrete.

Now those are Edmonton numbers, but I would imagine material costs don't very that much across the west.

[Migs]

Originally Posted by Bdog

Migs, you make it sound like delaying this project for months and months is somehow leveraging the province's position with the feds. If YOU know that the project is going ahead regardless of the feds, then the MPs of Saskatchewan must also know this as well. And since the project's plan B (moving forward with the project regardless of fed funding, you've claimed) has a february deadline, then the months and months of delay will have been for what? If the deadline passes, and the feds still haven't got an answer, what pressure what put on the feds?

Like I said, you're outthinking yourself bdog. Sure the MP's likely know this thing is going ahead regardless, but the public doesn't (Lukiwsky said once again on the radio today that there is already 350-370million dollars already commited to the project). That is why its called public pressure. You don't think the feds are sick and tired of having a mic put in front of their faces being asked about this on a daily basis? If it was public knowledge that this thing was going ahead anyways, the local MP's and the feds would likely be completely out of the picture. That is how politics works, you don't go ahead and say you are doing something if you are trying to get more partners to contribute, that is the opposite of what you should do when trying to raise funds. And once again, behind the scenes there is no real pressure to make a decision by the end of February b/c construction can't start until next summer at the earliest. The public deadline of the end of Feb was used simply to put more pressure on the P3fund/feds to partner up or get off the pot. Wouldn't surprise me at all if the deadline gets extended once again as P3 is getting closer to a decision. And that is possible given the fact that the railyards are yet to be vacated. Just because it isn't in the papers doesn't mean it isn't happening.

Intricate details? Migs, these are tens of millions of dollars we're talking about here. I'm glad that you've finally admit that the price will go up though... And what are these rumours about worst-case scenario numbers being used? It certainly is not mentioned in the feasibility study. I guess PCL has worst-case scenario for steel, concrete, and labour or what?

The mayor and the Premier have stated several times that the final number from the feasibility study were likely worse case, smart move if that is infact they way it was written up. Could it still be more, sure but like I said, all big projects like this are very fluid. Is there a chance it could come in under the final pricetag, perhaps, we will have to wait and see.

Need to know basis? This project is being sold as a complete urban revitalization, with affordable housing a top priority Migs. This isn't a minor detail, this is supposedly a major component. I find it funny that you suggest I read Mandryk's article, considering you did everything you could to discredit him the last time I posted an article by him, in which his opinion differed from yours.

How did I know you were going to say that? I referenced Mandryks article because he reiterated many of the same things that have been said on these forums as well as by stakeholders of this project. And if you have questions in regards to the proposed lowincome housing aspect, I suggest you contact City Hall and/or the Saskatchewan Legislature as they can give you alot more info on that than I can.

[Migs]

Originally Posted by rypinion

I think we need to give the Quebec arena proposal the same allowance then. They may have a full detailed business and construction plan, just not released for you to see.

That is true, but it makes you wonder why the feds said they haven't received one yet?

[Bdog]

Originally Posted by Migs

Like I said, you're outthinking yourself bdog. Sure the MP's likely know this thing is going ahead regardless, but the public doesn't (Lukiwsky said once again on the radio today that there is already 350-370million dollars already commited to the project). That is why its called public pressure. You don't think the feds are sick and tired of having a mic put in front of their faces being asked about this on a daily basis? If it was public knowledge that this thing was going ahead anyways, the local MP's and the feds would likely be completely out of the picture. That is how politics works, you don't go ahead and say you are doing something if you are trying to get more partners to contribute, that is the opposite of what you should do when trying to raise funds. And once again, behind the scenes there is no real pressure to make a decision by the end of February b/c construction can't start until next summer at the earliest. The public deadline of the end of Feb was used simply to put more pressure on the P3fund/feds to partner up or get off the pot. Wouldn't surprise me at all if the deadline gets extended once again as P3 is getting closer to a decision. And that is possible given the fact that the railyards are yet to be vacated. Just because it isn't in the papers doesn't mean it isn't happening.

Funny you should say that now! When I stated before that the deadline would likely be extended, you scoffed at the suggestion:

Also, the minister and the Premier have stated several times recently that a decision needs to be made before the end of February because the pricetag from the feasibility study will expire. Are you trying to tell me that are being dishonest in stating as such?

(Your words, from the part 1 thread)

So now all of a sudden, the decision doesn't need to be made by the end of february?

The mayor and the Premier have stated several times that the final number from the feasibility study were likely worse case, smart move if that is infact they way it was written up. Could it still be more, sure but like I said, all big projects like this are very fluid. Is there a chance it could come in under the final pricetag, perhaps, we will have to wait and see.

When did they state this several times? To you personally? I certainly haven't seen this in the media "several times".

How did I know you were going to say that? I referenced Mandryks article because he reiterated many of the same things that have been said on these forums as well as by stakeholders of this project. And if you have questions in regards to the proposed lowincome housing aspect, I suggest you contact City Hall and/or the Saskatchewan Legislature as they can give you alot more info on that than I can.

Ah, so you have priveledged insider information on most aspects of the project, just not aspects which are now touted as a main purpose of this project, inner-city housing. Gotcha.

Since the project's aims, scope and costs have all changed significantly since the project was first proposed, I wonder if they will poll residents anew...

[Migs]

Originally Posted by Bdog

Funny you should say that now! When I stated before that the deadline would likely be extended, you scoffed at the suggestion:

(Your words, from the part 1 thread)

So now all of a sudden, the decision doesn't need to be made by the end of february?

What exactly are you saying bdog? I am not the one who makes the decisions, I wish I was, but I am not. I would love for them to hold a presser tommorrow and announce this this is going through, fact of the matter is however that I don't have to play both sides of the debate like those in public office. Like I said already, this is a very long process that hopefully comes to a conclusion before the CPRailyards are vacated.

When did they state this several times? To you personally? I certainly haven't seen this in the media "several times".

Then I guess you aren't paying close enough attention to the process.

Ah, so you have priveledged insider information on most aspects of the project, just not aspects which are now touted as a main purpose of this project, inner-city housing. Gotcha.

Why are you fishing so much, put down the rod and have a beer. I don't know much about the lowincome housing portion b/c I hate to say it, its one aspect that I am not as interested in. What I do know is that a portion of the private funding for the stadium is tied to development of the land at the existing stadium.

Since the project's aims, scope and costs have all changed significantly since the project was first proposed, I wonder if they will poll residents anew...

Perhaps they will, wouldn't surprise me at all if a new scientic poll suggested that more people are in favour now that we know the stadium is feasible and that a lowincome housing development could be tied to the project. Both of those aspects were unknown to voters the last time a scientific poll was held.