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  #201  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2007, 9:21 PM
HX_Guy HX_Guy is offline
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Combusean,

Keep in mind that for the $90 million, the city is buying the to-be-built 2,500 space underground parking garage, which in turn (I assume) will be public parking owned by the city. Improvements will also be made to that garage under Patriot's Park as well as new landscaping/streetscaping.

So it's not like the city is just saying "Here's $90 million"...they are actually getting something out of it up front, plus the tax benefits that will follow from sales tax and property taxes.
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  #202  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2007, 11:34 PM
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combusean combusean is online now
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^ Perhaps ... but, even tho parking is not required in the downtown core, RED would be foolish to build without it--so they're getting reimbursed for what would be an otherwise necessary expense.
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  #203  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2007, 12:18 AM
NorthScottsdale NorthScottsdale is offline
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J15, your the shit. combusean, again, chill out and let it happen. there is plenty of "open space" (i am beginning to hate that term), and it will be very "walkable" (i already hate that term), and it will connect to everything else just fine. cant wait to see this happen! WOOHOO!
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  #204  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2007, 12:44 AM
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Originally Posted by NorthScottsdale View Post
J15, your the shit. combusean, again, chill out and let it happen. there is plenty of "open space" (i am beginning to hate that term), and it will be very "walkable" (i already hate that term), and it will connect to everything else just fine. cant wait to see this happen! WOOHOO!
Perhaps someone who (presumably) live in North Scottsdale, a bastion for auto centric development and cookie cutter garbage architecture shouldn't be telling one of the most knowledgeable posters on this board whats what.
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  #205  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2007, 12:44 AM
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Originally Posted by NorthScottsdale View Post
J15, your the shit. combusean, again, chill out and let it happen. there is plenty of "open space" (i am beginning to hate that term), and it will be very "walkable" (i already hate that term), and it will connect to everything else just fine. cant wait to see this happen! WOOHOO!
Perhaps someone who (presumably) live in North Scottsdale, a bastion for auto centric development and cookie cutter garbage architecture shouldn't be telling one of the most posters on this board whats what.
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  #206  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2007, 9:35 AM
Azndragon837 Azndragon837 is offline
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I personally won't "chill-out" either and watch this thing happen. RED can do a better job and create one grand open space, much like Sean's proposal on the page before.

I personally do not like the current design. As an Urban Planning student and a Planner, the current design is certainly NOT the best. I hope this issue gets resolved, with a better proposal put-forth by RED.

By the way, you really cannot tell Combusean to "chill-out." He is pretty passionate about urban design.

-Andrew
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  #207  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2007, 1:52 PM
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PHX_PD PHX_PD is offline
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This is not a gret city to live in if you're passionate about urban design. I'll admit I live in the suburbs (7th Ave and Northern), but I don't have that much of a problem with the current design. Theres enough open space out here, as long as we're getting 4 new towers plus a restaurant, grocery store, and retail, I say let them build whatever the hell they want. Its not like they're gonna change it now anyway. This is a matter of economics. Making the park bigger would cost RED too much square footage. Probably 90% of you disagree with my simplistic suburban views, but thats my 2 cents.
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  #208  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2007, 3:05 PM
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I agree, I won't get upset with any plan that they decide to go with. If it wasn't for RED we wouldn't have a AJ's coming downtown, we wouldn't have a PF Changs, and we wouldn't have 4 new multi-use hi rises about to break ground. Don't like what they have planned? Tough shit, Go eat PF Changs on Scottsdale and Frank Lloyd Wright, or go grocery shopping at AJ's on Pima and Pinnacle Peak. I'm suprised the developers haven't already bailed out, they can't even get support from residents in Phoenix who want this kind of thing getting built.
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  #209  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2007, 3:49 PM
BA744PHX BA744PHX is offline
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It may not be the best looking design but thats what happens when a developer has to change their original plans (which mind you looked so much beter) to make the citizens of this city (most of which will never go down there...) happy. If I was RED I would of bailed out on this a while ago. If it was my project I will build what I want, I shouldnt have to listen to any citizens about what I should design!!!!!!!!

Same thing can be said for the W Phoenix. Look whats happening with that now.......

NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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  #210  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2007, 3:50 PM
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I'm in the middle on this. I love that RED is proposing such a huge development and planning to do so much to revitalize the core, but at the same time I understand the arguments of the other side who say that RED got a full city block for free and needs to make more public use out of it.

I don't have the graphic design software or skills to draw what I have in mind, but I'd like to see the open space split equally between block 77 and whatever the next block east is. The open space would essentially be split down the middle by Central Avenue. The space would essentially be a diamond shape, with the current design of Block 77 remaining mostly as is, but angling the sides of the two towers on the middle block to create a larger space in the middle, almost symmetrical to what's across Central on 77. This would place the pedestrian bridge over Central essentially right in the north middle of the open space and allow it to be used as a stage for large public events. The retail all around that space would be two story, which means that it will be ringed by a second-story walkway all around the site, creating great viewing spaces for any events.

If someone wants to draw up something like that to make it easier to visualize, I'd love to see it.

Edit: Here is a VERY CRUDE representation of what I envision:


Last edited by DevdogAZ; Feb 14, 2007 at 4:33 PM.
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  #211  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2007, 3:53 PM
Downtown_resident Downtown_resident is offline
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Why are you guys so OK with mediocrity? Do you think people in other major American cities would be OK with their public squares being replaced by a PF Changs? (And having to pay the developer for it to boot?)

Downtown has a ton of promise right now, and we've made a huge public investment to help get it there. These three blocks downtown are too important to just give away in favor of such an uninspired design. We should expect better.

http://downtownphoenix.blogspot.com
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  #212  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2007, 4:04 PM
BA744PHX BA744PHX is offline
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its a public space that is a major gathering for only homeless people. People are only fighting it because they have nothing else going on for them. Yes there is alot of promise for out downtown but sadly no one else has came in and offered to do what RED is doing. If they would of stuck with their original design which again looked so much better then what they have now. I bet half these people wouldnt of complained to begin with.
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  #213  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2007, 4:11 PM
soleri soleri is offline
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Given the difficulty with downtown parking, why not go to a suburban PF Chang's? People usually vote for those places with the easiest parking.

Great downtowns have more than predictable suburban retail and restaurants. This is one of the problems with CityScape. It's not really that urban and its restaurants and stores show this. There are some unique downtown destinations. The new restaurant First will be one. This is what you want. This is what makes downtown downtown.

I think there are ways to create some flex spaces in a project that don't necessarily result in the same 'ol same 'ol. But CityScape would have to be more than a real-estate hustle. It would have to be visionary. It would have to know what creates a real urban pulse, not just some suburban mixed-use project with extra height.

This matters because CityScape in not being planted in some urban playground. This is not Tempe or Scottsdale. Downtown Phoenix is not going to compete with those places by having maybe 10% of what they have. Given this reality, what's going to sell this complex? What will the sales slogan be? "Live in the 'burbs downtown"?

I know cities are not a popular topic in this forum, but exciting cities generate a lot more height than artificial downtowns. If you have a 24/7 area, chances are you won't need city subsidies to get a CityScape off the ground. Tempe would have no problem at all in this way. That's the advantage in having a core with pedestrian scale and old buildings.

This matters because even if CityScape's successfully navigates the permitting and approval process (a given, IMO), it still can't create a market for what it's selling. Yes it can manufacture buzz with brochures and T shirts. No, it can't present an existing 24/7 downtown as a sales point. Believe it or not, people are not stupid. Centerpointe is selling very well because there's already a real city around it. CityScape can only point to itself as a promise of the good things to come.

I'm all in favor of this project, warts and all, if it comes to pass. There's nothing else waiting in the wings, so it's either RED or wait another 10 years. But Cityscape is unlikely to be completed as proposed. Given the opportunity here, we should be asking the tough questions now. Downtown doesn't need another Collier's Center, even if we do get rid of one those vacant blocks.
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  #214  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2007, 4:24 PM
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Quote:
We should expect better.
We should expect better? Where the hell were people like you when PSP was proposed? This project isn't going to make or break DT Phoenix, but it's a huge step in the right direction. You can get picky when there's a reason to get picky, like when there's a reason to use a frickin park downtown.
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  #215  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2007, 4:35 PM
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Again, anything is better than what is existing, and anything is better than the proposals we've already seen (Ambasz's canyon crap was hideous and would have turned the area into a gigantic dead zone, unlike CityScape). It's pretty good and at least tries to promote people spaces, urbanity, etc.

Is CityScape the "Best" design for that particular piece of land and for Phoenix? It's hard to say, especially based on a few crude/preliminary site plans. On top of all of that, who's to say what is "Best" for that land? What one person likes or would want to see built, another person may not.
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  #216  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2007, 4:47 PM
kevininlb kevininlb is offline
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CityScape should be applauded for bringing in PF Changs...and the like. People who visit Phx -- convention center, for instance -- don't have s**t to do. They'll love seeing something familiar. And, besides, Jackson Street is being planned as the very opposite, a unique strip with one-of-a-kind stores/bars, etc. That's something for locals, and CS is something locals can be proud of -- provided it happens -- even if "we" don't go there.

CS, in my opinion, is doing what exactly needs to be done DT. The people down there on weekends are mostly out of towners looking for something to do. Trust me, before I moved here, I was that person...visiting for business and asking concierge after concierge where to go. The reply? "Mill Ave. in Tempe." I would've killed back then for PF Changs.
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  #217  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2007, 7:20 PM
HX_Guy HX_Guy is offline
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Originally Posted by soleri View Post
Given the difficulty with downtown parking, why not go to a suburban PF Chang's? People usually vote for those places with the easiest parking.

Great downtowns have more than predictable suburban retail and restaurants. This is one of the problems with CityScape. It's not really that urban and its restaurants and stores show this. There are some unique downtown destinations. The new restaurant First will be one. This is what you want. This is what makes downtown downtown.
Sure, if you're in the suburbs, I think most people would choose to go to the suburban PF Chang's. But what about the people going to a game or show downtown? Or the people in town for a convention? Or the thousands of people who work downtown and want to have lunch or dinner after work?

Will they all drive to the suburban PF Chang's?

I completely agree that there need to be unique places downtown, but at the same time I think it would be great to have the same things that you find in all the suburbs. After all, who would want to live downtown if they have to drive to Scottsdale or Glendale to go to a restaurant or do some shopping?
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  #218  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2007, 9:05 PM
soleri soleri is offline
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^nothing against PF Chang's, but a billion dollar project needs cachet, not a restaurant one normally associates with suburban shopping malls.

The problem is that CityScape is in a downtown in desperate need of definition and identity. It ought to find a way to be urban and not merely safe and predictable. If downtown were already successful, this wouldn't matter. You could have it all, as it were. But downtown Phoenix really doesn't have anything so making it bland and suburban is really not a keen strategy.

This project cannot save downtown by itself and it's unfair of people like me to think it ought to. But I guarantee you it won't work as presently designed, so the question is really moot.
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  #219  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2007, 9:36 PM
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/\ Actually I don't believe "Downtown Phoenix really doesn't have anything", and I don't think downtown needs to be "saved".

I could go on and on about the great things presently going on for downtown, and make a near endless list of the things coming and under construction that will make it that much better.

For some reason there is the perception by the masses that there's "nothing to do", which we all know is not true, so why do some of the forumers here seem to try to buy into that, or at least say things like that? I've spent every weekend downtown for the past couple months, obviously there's not "nothing to do".

Before you try to point out that downtowns of other cities are "better", let me tell you that is a moot point, and possibly not even true. We're talking about Phoenix, no where else. Really, the only thing missing is shitloads of people (which is the ultimate barometer of a city's health on this forum), and shitloads are missing in Phoenix because of the stereotype.

So, finally, CityScape doesn't need to save Phoenix, I don't even think downtown needs it to be built based on all of the other things currently there and coming. It would be nice, but it's not necessary. So there's no need to nitpick and hinder and make it seem as though if CityScape isn't the best, most perfectly (in your mind) urban place in the city and in the country, and that Phoenix is doomed to rot and shrivel up and blow away in the breeze to hell now that CityScape has a seemingly sub-par design.

(ps. I'm not advocating that no one should care and hope and try to make CityScape better, we all should, but as of now it's is what it is, and who knows, maybe it'll be great. Hell, we on the forum are the minority when it comes to the typical Phoencian, and many of you are saying CityScape is horrible and won't work. Well, maybe that's because of your minority (when it comes to the masses) urban mindset. Maybe if it doesn't appeal to you, it will appeal to the mass amounts of DT Phoenix dissenters and suburbanites and they'll come downtown, bringing that elusive "shitload" of people, which is exactly what you want.)
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  #220  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2007, 10:55 PM
soleri soleri is offline
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I appreciate the civil tone in this debate and hope we can keep it that way. I think we need to remember a couple of things, however. One is that disagreement is in itself a good thing. It means we're really thinking, which is what this forum ought to encourage. Too much agreement and discussion itself dead-ends in blather. Also, none of us is going to make or kill this project. I have my own measure of grandiosity but even I know that I'm powerless to impact major real-estate deals.

There's a good reason to worry about project like this, at least from my perspective. I want more than anything for downtown to succeed and for Phoenix to urbanize. It means thinking about what advances that prospect and what hinders it.

We have already have an example in Collier's Center which was originally slated to have four towers. That the Colliers and partnered with RED needs to be kept in mind when pondering this new proposal. You have all the signposts of mixed-use sterility in the Collier's Center: retail plazas away from the street, blank walls, and no interface with the existing city fabric. This stuff matters. Because every superblock and dead zone means less life in downtown not just today but for a long time to come. I agree with PHX31 that this project by itself wouldn't doom Phoenix, but the blocks are singularly important: the 0-0 epicenter of downtown and, for that matter, all of Phoenix.

Because we tend to think in terms of "major moves", we miss the critical factor of fine-grained development downtown. Every great downtown has it: small businesses, buildings, uses, and services that together create an urban fabric. Create enough of this and you have a great place. San Diego, e.g., is lucky to have about a dozen or so blocks in the middle of downtown (Gaslamp) with this kind of density and detail. It makes SD swing.

Cityscape cannot by itself do this for Phoenix and they're under no expectation that they should. But in a downtown singularly devoid of such fine-grained development, we ought to ask if this is the one area where CityScape could possibly imagine something really good. New construction is extremely difficult to achieve these ends, and particularly when it's a huge project like this. I raise the point not because I think they need to redraw their plans but only because it's what downtown Phoenix really needs.

Maybe the Jackson St Entertainment District is better suited for this concern. Maybe they can find the urban pulse that's otherwise missing in downtown. I'd like to see it in CityScape, too. Indeed, I don't think CityScape can succeed without it. Collier's didn't succeed even with the outright gift of city land.

At any rate, I apologize for these long posts and negativity to what most of you like and want to succeed. I would love to be proven wrong by CityScape. I'm not going to protest it or bad-mouth it to the "outside". If it does fail, I won't say "I told you so". I just want to get it off my chest. And I hope this is my last post on the topic for the foreseeable future.
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