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  #1001  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2007, 10:04 PM
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So Cityscape is planning on building a new tallest? I thought those were the original plans, but they scraped those plans and scaled back the height?
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  #1002  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2007, 10:08 PM
HX_Guy HX_Guy is offline
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They were planning a 510' tower, which would have been the new tallest. The market condition are making them reconsider those plans and scale the tower down to around 420' or so.
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  #1003  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2007, 10:30 PM
HX_Guy HX_Guy is offline
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Some other Cityscape happenings...


SEC of Central Avenue and Washington Street - Block 22

Proposal:

1) Variance to reduce the parking stall width in an underground parking garage to 8.5 x 18 feet. 9.5 x 18 feet required. 2) Variance to decrease the building setback requirements along all street frontages for the 1st and 2nd stories to a minimum of 10 feet from the curb. 20 feet setback from the curb required. 3) Variance to reduce the shade element width along all street frontages to 6 feet. Where shade elements are provided, minimum 12 feet width required.


SEC of 1st Avenue and Washington Street - Block 77

Proposal:

1) Variance to allow off-site maneuvering. On-site maneuvering required. 2) Variance to decrease the building setback requirements along all street frontages for the first and second stories to a minimum of 10 feet from the curb. 20 feet setback from the curb required. 3) Variance to reduce the shade element width along all street frontages to 6 feet. Where shade elements are provided, minimum 12 feet width required. 4) Variance to reduce minimum percentage of building frontage within 15 feet of the front property line along Central Avenue, 1st Avenue, and Washington Street to 40%. Minimum 60% required.
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  #1004  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2007, 1:04 AM
Tfom Tfom is offline
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I agree that the argument doesn't hold water but for different reasons. Yes Phoenix has a very large population spread out over a large area, and I think that metro population is a better estimate of a citie's "size." However when you look at the other cities below Phoenix you tend to find more impressive skylines than Phoenix has. There are other cities with a very large (top 10) population that aren't in the top 25 for metro area (I think of San Antonio and San Jose). These cities also don't have very memorable skylines. I think what we have to keep in mind is that despite our relatively large population, even on the metro scale, it has happened very quickly. We were barely a top 25 in 1990 (2,238,480), we added about 1 million in the 90's and will add more than that this decade. Part of it is we have some catching up to do. At lease we are adding buildings to the skyline and an effort to reinvent downtown. But high rise buildings don't pop up as quickly as people are moving to the valley. Hopefully the downturn in the market will create more favorable conditions in the housing sector.

14 Riverside–San Bernardino–Ontario CA 4,026,135
15 Seattle–Tacoma–Bellevue WA 3,263,497
16 Minneapolis–St. Paul–Bloomington MN–WI 3,175,041
17 San Diego–Carlsbad–San Marcos[1 CA 2,941,454
18 St. Louis MO–IL 2,796,368
19 Tampa–St. Petersburg–Clearwater FL 2,697,731
20 Baltimore–Towson MD 2,658,405
21 Denver–Aurora CO 2,408,750
22 Pittsburgh PA–WV 2,370,776
23 Portland–Vancouver–Beaverton OR–WA 2,137,565
24 Cleveland–Elyria–Mentor OH 2,114,155
25 Cincinnati–Middletown OH 2,104,218

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevininlb View Post
You know, Don, I understand your point. But this whole argument -- often cited when Phoenix's population comes up -- really doesn't hold much weight. Look at the top 10 cities and Phoenix's geographic size isn't exactly grossly out of whack (L.A., for example). These are 2000 census figures, so slighty outdated, but still... Anyway, what's the real measure...metro? Okay...anyone have square miles per metro? I suspect the Philly metro is bigger than Phoenix in square miles but not sure.
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  #1005  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2007, 1:47 AM
Don B. Don B. is offline
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Just for the record, the Phoenix metro area includes both Pinal and Maricopa Counties. Maricopa County alone covers more than 9,000 square miles and is larger than the entire Philly metro area, which I think is around 6,000 to 7,000 square miles. Maricopa County is bigger than the entire state of New Jersey. Pinal County adds another 5,000+ square miles, yielding one of the largest metro areas in the country, almost 15,000 square miles. That's the size of many European nations like Belgium and the Netherlands.
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  #1006  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2007, 2:26 AM
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^^^^^But the Phoenix area does not include all of Maricopa and Pinal counties. So the land size is smaller than the 15,000. The PHX area is only northern Pinal, and northeastern Maricopa.
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  #1007  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2007, 3:44 AM
Don B. Don B. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonoran_Dweller View Post
^^^^^But the Phoenix area does not include all of Maricopa and Pinal counties. So the land size is smaller than the 15,000. The PHX area is only northern Pinal, and northeastern Maricopa.
Yes it does. We aren't talking about urbanized areas, which is what you are referring to. We are talking about metropolitan areas, which in the U.S. are calculated county by county.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_metropolitan_area

http://www.census.gov/population/www...metroarea.html

http://www.census.gov/population/www...2006/List1.txt


38060 Phoenix-Mesa-Scottsdale, AZ Metropolitan Statistical Area
38060 04013 Maricopa County, AZ
38060 04021 Pinal County, AZ


--don
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  #1008  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2007, 3:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don B. View Post
Maricopa County is bigger than the entire state of New Jersey.
I thought that couldn't possibly be right, but I looked it up, and it is. Wow!
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  #1009  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2007, 4:11 AM
Don B. Don B. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Upward View Post
I thought that couldn't possibly be right, but I looked it up, and it is. Wow!
Well, of course it is. I'm not known as autistic map boy for nothing. My mind is full of worthless census data and information about areas and populations going back decades or even centuries in some cases.



Without looking it up, Maricopa County is about 9,200 square miles and New Jersey is 7,000+ square miles.

Maricopa County is bigger than Rhode Island and Connecticut combined. It is almost as large as Massachusetts.

--don
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  #1010  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2007, 4:29 PM
kevininlb kevininlb is offline
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square miles - metros.

Wow, look at L.A. 34,000 sq miles. Wow.

Okay, these are very outdated -- 1990 -- but geez. Maybe someone knows where to find more up-to-date stuff. Phoenix metro -- 14,500 plus.

http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/metro05.prn
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  #1011  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2007, 12:45 AM
Phxbyrd211 Phxbyrd211 is offline
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I'm starting to not be very impressed with RED and the other developers. Yes, it's always good to get new towers downtown but this project was supposed to be something special. Special enough for the city to put its full weight behind it and offer plenty of incentives to make up for the market conditions. I hate to say it but the Save Patriots Park people had a small point about the city's most valuable piece of land. I for one am much more impressed with the Middle East group on central who are making their project happen and quickly. I think the heights of the buildings should be 450', 475', 510', and 550' with the tallest being to the far NW (far from the W). I don't see how the scaled back project can revitalize or redefine anything.
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  #1012  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2007, 1:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phxbyrd211 View Post
I'm starting to not be very impressed with RED and the other developers. Yes, it's always good to get new towers downtown but this project was supposed to be something special. Special enough for the city to put its full weight behind it and offer plenty of incentives to make up for the market conditions. I hate to say it but the Save Patriots Park people had a small point about the city's most valuable piece of land. I for one am much more impressed with the Middle East group on central who are making their project happen and quickly. I think the heights of the buildings should be 450', 475', 510', and 550' with the tallest being to the far NW (far from the W). I don't see how the scaled back project can revitalize or redefine anything.
The tower heights are largely irrelevant. Of course we'd all like them to be 800 feet, but the difference between what was original proposed and what is probably going to happen isn't that big of a deal. They still beat the snot out of a park for hobo's and a parking lot. They still provide much needed Class A office space, 400 hotel rooms, and over a thousand residences. So on any given night, that means you could have between 700 and 1,400 people in those 3 square blocks, I can't see how that will fail to redfine or revitalize downtown.
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  #1013  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2007, 1:05 AM
Vicelord John Vicelord John is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phxbyrd211 View Post
I'm starting to not be very impressed with RED and the other developers. Yes, it's always good to get new towers downtown but this project was supposed to be something special. Special enough for the city to put its full weight behind it and offer plenty of incentives to make up for the market conditions. I hate to say it but the Save Patriots Park people had a small point about the city's most valuable piece of land. I for one am much more impressed with the Middle East group on central who are making their project happen and quickly. I think the heights of the buildings should be 450', 475', 510', and 550' with the tallest being to the far NW (far from the W). I don't see how the scaled back project can revitalize or redefine anything.
I'm sorry, were you under the impression that project was under construction?
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  #1014  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2007, 2:34 AM
Phxbyrd211 Phxbyrd211 is offline
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I don't think that the twin 50-story project is underway but they seem to be moving forward more quickly and with much less attention and fan fare than City Scape.
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  #1015  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2007, 2:38 AM
HX_Guy HX_Guy is offline
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What gives you the impression they are moving forward so fast? Yes they have showed some nice renderings and have had some meeting, but not much is happening in the permitting part of the project or anything else to indicate construction is coming anytime in the near future.
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  #1016  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2007, 5:17 AM
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Now at groundbreaking they stated that construction would begin in three weeks. Tomorow, the 12th, will mark three weeks. Does anyone think even with the altercations with the faa, that construction will begin??? Will it start in the near future??? Will they still get started on the patriot square block???
Sorry for all the questions it's just I am so excited for this project!!!
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  #1017  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2007, 5:36 AM
HX_Guy HX_Guy is offline
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The only thing I've got toward monitoring construction is the permits coming in...and nothing has come in since October 17th. There are no build permits yet...I suspect it will still be a couple weeks at a minimum until any actual construction or excavation, or anything related to this thing actually being under construction will begin.

Which brings up the question...what's the whole "Ground breaking" deal about? You'd expect that once they actually announce ground breaking, then work would start right then...or the next day, otherwise, what's the difference between what was happening before the ground breaking and after?

With Central Park East, their ground breaking is set for this Wednesday and they already have equipment on site, they have trucks, modular cranes, foundation equipment...just waiting for the ground breaking. For Cityscape, it seems it was more a publicity stunt then anything.
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  #1018  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2007, 4:25 PM
HX_Guy HX_Guy is offline
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This should make for a good view once things start to move along...

http://instacam.com/showcam.asp?id=PHBOB&size=L

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  #1019  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2007, 5:16 PM
Phxbyrd211 Phxbyrd211 is offline
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I realize they may not be in the permitting stage on Willetta but they seem to be zooming through the approval process and I don't think they will slow down later. Perhaps because they are foreign I doubt they will let any of these factors stunting City Scape get in their way. All over the rest of the world there are developers getting things done the way we can't believe in Arizona. City Scape has now consumed phoenix development for some time and what we are getting is about the same as CPE and 41Monroe which were treated much differently.
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  #1020  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2007, 5:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phxbyrd211 View Post
I realize they may not be in the permitting stage on Willetta but they seem to be zooming through the approval process and I don't think they will slow down later. Perhaps because they are foreign I doubt they will let any of these factors stunting City Scape get in their way. All over the rest of the world there are developers getting things done the way we can't believe in Arizona. City Scape has now consumed phoenix development for some time and what we are getting is about the same as CPE and 41Monroe which were treated much differently.
I'm sorry, but you are completely off your rocker if you think what we are currently getting is ANYTHING close to CPE or 44 Monroe.

EDIT: To give you some factoids so that I seem like less of a jerk:

44 Monroe: 202 condos. Some small amount of ground floor retail

CPE: 26 stories of office and some small retail on the ground floor possible.

CityScape: Over 1,000 residences, more office space than CPE, 400 hotel rooms, a grocery store and tons of retail and a park-like area/arcade w/ water features.

You just seem to really be annoyed that the project has been slightly shortened (we all are), but thats no reason to deride it.

Last edited by HooverDam; Nov 12, 2007 at 5:51 PM.
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