Heavy Rail, Commuter Rail, & Intercity Transportation

[Rusty Gull]

Originally Posted by usog

A little OT, but do you have any more info on improvement on the Vancouver-Seattle Amtrack run?

Well, a second run has been in the works for ages, and should have been ready by now. However, it is being held up by demands from the Canadian Border Services Agency. Basically, the increased rail traffic from the US represents an increased workload for them.

Maybe some of the funding for the Via Station in Vancouver will address this? It's really hard to say.

[Rusty Gull]

Originally Posted by Rusty Gull

Well, a second run has been in the works for ages, and should have been ready by now. However, it is being held up by demands from the Canadian Border Services Agency. Basically, the increased rail traffic from the US represents an increased workload for them.

Maybe some of the funding for the Via Station in Vancouver will address this? It's really hard to say.

One thing we do know is that, in many ways, Pacific Central Station is under-utilized. So there's great opportunity for enhancing this facility, if indeed this is what the federal government intends to do.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

On one of these forums there was a render of a new canopy at Pacific Central, has that been built?

I think that was for the Rocky Mountaineer Station behind Home Depot.

The VIA Station was renovated in the 1990s (or 80s?) when the bus depot moved over there and the white truss canopy that's there was installed at that time.

[Metro-One]

Thanks. I have always thought that the skytrain and Pacific Central should have more of a direct link, possibly a sky bridge or an underground passage way? I have always found it strange you have to walk through that sketchy park. At least a partial walkway that takes you over main street would be nice (does the station renovations have any elements of this?)

How much design is left for the evergreen line (have the layout of the stations been drawn yet?)

[jlousa]

There is a walkway over Main St always has been.
You can't connect the two with a skybridge as you would need to have it low enough to pass under the tracks and connect to a mezzanie level but high enough for buses to pass under on Station St. The best we can hope for would be a covered walkway.
Besides that park isn't sketchy, it's acutally quite nice the only time I can remember it being sketchy was during that summer of tent cities.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by tintinium

One can hope. The CBSA demands are silly. Another train will benefit Canadians going to Seattle more than Seattlites going to Vancouver. Probably the Olympics is what pushed Amtrak to want to do this route. It would be a shame if it didn't go through until after the Olympics. I would love to see a success story made of that train. This is one of the proposed high-speed corridors, and a great opportunity for Canada and the US to work together.

CBSA has been having union disputes with the government lately, so the cynical side of me says this may be posturing. However the other side of me says hey these people are supposed to have our safety as their #1 priority. On a related note the Feds also mentioned funding to beef up the Pacific Crossing facilities.

What am I missing with this Amtrak plan? I've been on the Seattle train today and it's both expensive and mostly empty, where's the demand for a second line?

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

CBSA has been having union disputes with the government lately, so the cynical side of me says this may be posturing. However the other side of me says hey these people are supposed to have our safety as their #1 priority. On a related note the Feds also mentioned funding to beef up the Pacific Crossing facilities.

What am I missing with this Amtrak plan? I've been on the Seattle train today and it's both expensive and mostly empty, where's the demand for a second line?

Mid-week. January. Targeted at Seattle Day trips...

The second train is mostly for counter travel. No one travels on the train now because it's slower than the bus or driving. It's slower than the bus or driving because

What Amtrak needs is integrated border services in Vancouver station, so it doesn't need to make a stop at the border.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by tintinium

Mid-week. January. Targeted at Seattle Day trips...

The second train is mostly for counter travel. No one travels on the train now because it's slower than the bus or driving. It's slower than the bus or driving because

What Amtrak needs is integrated border services in Vancouver station, so it doesn't need to make a stop at the border.

I've taken the bus, the train, and driven to Seattle. The train is still the best. The border is short, roughly like having a Nexus pass. In my experience:

Train: 2.5h
Car: 3h (and I have Nexus).
Bus: 4.5h

So... you're not really right there. But Amtrak is like $80 one way per person, so hardly worth it.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I've taken the bus, the train, and driven to Seattle. The train is still the best. The border is short, roughly like having a Nexus pass. In my experience:

Train: 2.5h
Car: 3h (and I have Nexus).
Bus: 4.5h

So... you're not really right there. But Amtrak is like $80 one way per person, so hardly worth it.

According to Amtrak.com:
Train VAC-SEA: 4:20 (3:55 return... I believe that's because on the way back, you go through the Border in Pacific Central (I think))

Bus:
3:20 - 4:40 (It varies, depending on time of day)

Google by Car:
2:30 (up to 3:00 in traffic)

I'd add 30 minute contingency, depending on the border, and that pretty much jives with what I've experienced.

I've taken the train from Bellingham, but not from Vancouver.

Also, tickets can be had for $30 (US). one-way/pp.

I checked for tomorrow... and it's $35. Of course, most of the cheap seats are gone in the summer.

Anyway, at $35, it's not a bad deal for a single driver... as it would probably cost an average car $20-$25 each way. It's just that it's slow.

From Bellingham, it's only 2:25. What on earth takes that train 2 HOURS to get to Bellingham???!!!!

The only things I can think of:

1. The circuitous route in Vancouver
2. The antiquated train Bridge across the Fraser
3. White Rock
4. The Border

Most of these are problems north of the border. If they reduced the time to get to Bellingham to 45 minutes, the train would be a viable alternative to driving or the bus.

These improvements won't happen until more people take the train. More people won't take the train until it is convenient (at LEAST two trains per day)

There are quite a few people who go to Seattle from Vancouver regularly, including tourists. Most of them go by bus. If they want to go overnight, or for the day to go see a baseball game. It would be nice if they could take the train in the morning, stay night and take the evening train the next day.

It's a shame, really, that this doesn't exist now.

[WarrenC12]

Wow, things have changed. Maybe the bus makes less stops. I can't explain the time of the train, since when I caught it last there were maybe 3-4 stops including the border, all 5 mins each, and otherwise the speed was great. Under 3 hours easily.

Of course the only reason I took it was the sale for $3.50 each way, per person. No joke! Anyway, at $39US each it's still a hard sell. I drive to Seattle with my girlfriend in our Yaris and it's $50Cdn for gas (at Canadian prices). Tough to justify.

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

CBSA has been having union disputes with the government lately, so the cynical side of me says this may be posturing. However the other side of me says hey these people are supposed to have our safety as their #1 priority. On a related note the Feds also mentioned funding to beef up the Pacific Crossing facilities.

What am I missing with this Amtrak plan? I've been on the Seattle train today and it's both expensive and mostly empty, where's the demand for a second line?

the way the train works now any amtrak connections south of seattle cannot be made

If you could catch a train from vancouver to seattle in the morning you could than catch the trains to Portland, and California etc.

if you want to do that now you have to spend one night in Seattle at a hotel and than the train the next day

some people just like to travel by train

i would love to do it one day - my friend has taken the train numerous times to seattle and loves it but it gets there so late at night

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

i would love to do it one day - my friend has taken the train numerous times to seattle and loves it but it gets there so late at night

I've taken the Coast Starlight to Sacramento from Seattle. It's a nice trip, but it's slow.

[Metro-One]

How are they going to build an overpass at Harris Road? There's a condo right there and I'm sure the residents will oppose anything of that sort. But yea it is a pretty bad crossing, I tried taking the 791 from Pitt Meadows to Braid and we were stuck at that crossing for like 5 minutes for a freight train that crossed just a minute after the West Coast Express left.

I was thinking more of an underpass, similar to that of where the Mary Hill Bypass goes under the CP tracks. It could easily be done there as well.

[twoNeurons]

Amtrak tries to increase service to B.C.
Amtrak wants to start a second daily Seattle-to-Vancouver train, but the proposal is stalled because of a dispute about fees for Canadian immigration and customs inspections.

By Kristin Jackson


Seattle Times Travel staff

There's an easy way to avoid delays at the U.S.-Canada border crossing at Blaine, both now and during next year's Winter Olympics: Take the train from Seattle to Vancouver, B.C.

It will be even more convenient if Amtrak Cascades starts a second daily round-trip train between the two cities.

Amtrak Cascades, which has one round trip a day between Seattle and Vancouver, B.C., says it's been ready since last summer to start a second train. But that's been stymied by a dispute over payment for immigration/customs inspections of rail passengers arriving in Canada aboard the second train.

"In July, we were notified by the Canadian Border Services Agency that they will require $1,500 [Canadian] a day in reimbursement for inspections of northbound passengers," said Ken Uznanski, the rail-passenger manager for the Washington Department of Transportation.

Amtrak Cascades, the Pacific Northwest rail service operated by Amtrak under contract with the governments of Washington and Oregon, doesn't want to pay that daily fee (equivalent to about $1,218). Talks have been held but so far there's no resolution — and no second train.

"The province of British Columbia, the tourism industry and others have been working to attempt to get the fee waived," said Uznanski. "The current Seattle-Vancouver round trip does not have such a charge ... (that's) what has held up the start of service."

A spokeswoman for Canada's Border Services Agency, Faith St. John, said the federal agency could not comment on the issue.

The British Columbia government "recognizes the benefits" of a second train, provincial- government spokesman Alex Dabrowski said Friday. But it's awaiting the outcome of talks and has no timeline for when the train may start.

In the meantime, Amtrak Cascades saw record annual ridership in 2008, carrying 774,421 passengers on its routes that stretch from Eugene, Ore., through Portland and Seattle to Vancouver, B.C. That's up from 676,670 passengers in 2007.

High fuel costs for motorists and the convenience of trains — its most popular stretch is Seattle-Portland service with four round trips daily — helped boost ridership.

A second train between Seattle and Vancouver, B.C., would give passengers a better choice of times. The current northbound train departs Seattle at 7.40 a.m.; it leaves Vancouver, B.C., at 5.45 p.m. for Seattle.

The new train would leave Seattle at 6.40 p.m. and depart Vancouver the following morning at 7 a.m.

Another advantage of the second train, beyond the increase in service, is it would be an extension of an existing service between Seattle and Portland.

That would let travelers remain on one train between Portland and Vancouver, B.C., avoiding the train changes and long waits now required for such a trip.

Kristin Jackson: kjackson@seattletimes.com or 206-464-2271.

article


This annoys me. Is this a case of Ottawa's meddling? I wonder if there is a charge for cross-border trains back east?

[Mininari]

Curious... how did discussion of the train to Seattle end up in the Evergreen Line Rapid Transit section? I mean, its a great topic (and a sincere JOKE how poor and slow the train service to seattle is), but I think maybe it deserves its own thread?

[DKaz]

I dunno, I just got caught up in this off-topicness. Perhaps we're just trying to kill time before construction of the Evergreen Line actually starts, then we'll have designs and construction progress photos to oggle over.

[twoNeurons]

Okay, after some thought, I decided to create a new thread.

This thread will be centered around:

Commuter Rail:

• West-Coast Express Expansions
• New "Fraser Valley Express" (Commuter Rail to Surrey, Langley and Beyond)
• Commuter Rail to Squamish or Whistler

Heavy Rail (Regular and High-speed):

• BC Rail
• Via Rail
• Rocky Mountaineer
• Amtrak to Seattle
• Snow Trains (Winter service to Whistler)

Short distance planes/helicopter:

• Heli-jet to Victoria
• Short hops to other cities/areas

Cars & Buses:

• Highway Improvements/Changes that enhance transportation between cities.
• New Intercity Bus Services, or changes/enhancements to existing services. Vancouver to Victoria, Chilliwack/Abbotsford to Metro Vancouver, Vancouver - Seattle

And of course Intercity Water transport:

• Vancouver - Squamish
• Vancouver - Victoria/Nanaimo
• Vancouver - Prince Rupert

I'll start with a link to WSDOT's long-term plan for Amtrak Cascades.

The plan, on page 15 says the goal is 2:37 between Vancouver - Seattle by 2023. It goes on to say what is needed to meet that goal.

I'll add some more ideas that I have when I get some time.

Where do you think Vancouver could use the MOST improvement in intercity travel?

[twoNeurons]

Okay: More info I gathered from the WSDOT's Long-term plan:
Page 46:

Currently (2006) from Bellingham:

To Seattle: 2:25 ( ~170km of rail )
To Vancouver: 1:48 (~100km of rail)

Mid-point Goal:
To Seattle: 1:59 (26 minute improvement)
To Vancouver: 1:39 (46 minute improvement)

2023 Goal:
To Seattle: 1:44 ( 41 min. improvement total)
To Vancouver: 0:50 ( 58 min. improvement total)

Average Speeds:
BEL - VAC:
Now: 56km/h
Mid: 60km/h
2023: 120km/h

BEL-SEA
Now: 70km/h
Mid: 85km/h
2023: ~100km/h (this includes station stops)


These speeds are average, and obviously VAC - BEL will be faster as there is only the border.

The planned maximum speed is ~175km/h (110mph)

Currently, trains are legally limited to ~127km/h (79mph)

Without building dedicated tracks, that's probably the best we'll do, but as you can see, most of the upgrading would appear to be on the North side of the border.

The biggest improvements coming after building a White Rock By-pass and Colesbrook - Brownsville High-speed track(Surrey) [p. 105], which, combined with Improvement south of the border in Mt. Vernon, Bellingham, Blaine and Everett, will shave 50 minutes off the trip length.

[electricron]

Originally Posted by tintinium

Okay: More info I gathered from the WSDOT's Long-term plan:
Page 46:

Currently (2006) from Bellingham:

To Seattle: 2:25 ( ~170km of rail )
To Vancouver: 1:48 (~100km of rail)

Mid-point Goal:
To Seattle: 1:59 (26 minute improvement)
To Vancouver: 1:39 (46 minute improvement)

2023 Goal:
To Seattle: 1:44 ( 41 min. improvement total)
To Vancouver: 0:50 ( 58 min. improvement total)

Average Speeds:
BEL - VAC:
Now: 56km/h
Mid: 60km/h
2023: 120km/h

BEL-SEA
Now: 70km/h
Mid: 85km/h
2023: ~100km/h (this includes station stops)


These speeds are average, and obviously VAC - BEL will be faster as there is only the border.

The planned maximum speed is ~175km/h (110mph)

Currently, trains are legally limited to ~127km/h (79mph)

Without building dedicated tracks, that's probably the best we'll do, but as you can see, most of the upgrading would appear to be on the North side of the border.

The biggest improvements coming after building a White Rock By-pass and Colesbrook - Brownsville High-speed track(Surrey) [p. 105], which, combined with Improvement south of the border in Mt. Vernon, Bellingham, Blaine and Everett, will shave 50 minutes off the trip length.

WSDOT has made a great long range plan. Too bad they can't find the cash to accelerate it. The plan overall is not that expensive, and saving 50 minutes will make this train more competitive sooner.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by electricron

WSDOT has made a great long range plan. Too bad they can't find the cash to accelerate it. The plan overall is not that expensive, and saving 50 minutes will make this train more competitive sooner.

Not to mention making White Rock Residents happy by not having a train on their waterfront.