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  #1  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2009, 3:15 AM
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Column: Parking fees in Metro Vancouver to be taxed at 33 per cent when HST comes in

Column: Parking fees in Metro Vancouver to be taxed at 33 per cent when HST comes in

A 21-per-cent sales tax on parking fees in Metro Vancouver, due to kick in Jan. 1, will not go away when the 12-per-cent HST comes into force on July 1.

So the new total rate will be 33 per cent.

This huge hit was by no means obvious when the province announced two weeks ago that the long-standing tax on parking would triple from seven to 21 per cent. After all, this tax is a product of provincial sales-tax legislation, and for years the B.C. government has called it PST.

And the province now has a deal with Ottawa in which it will be paid $1.6 billion to drop all PST and adopt the HST as of July 1.

Up to late Friday, people in the parking industry were telling me they had no idea if the two taxes would be stacked or not. Spokesmen for both TransLink and the B.C. Ministry of Finance also said they didn’t know.

Then Finance Minister Colin Hansen called to say that the tax has been misnamed all these years — it’s really a “transit tax.” And it will be staying at whatever rate TransLink wants, up to 21 per cent, which is the upper limit set by law.

He said he didn’t know if this could be done under existing law, or if it would require an amendment when a package of HST legislation is passed in the spring. But either way it will be done, he said, to honour the province’s promise that TransLink can have the revenue the tax will raise.

full article: http://www.vancouversun.com/health/C...656/story.html
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  #2  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2009, 3:27 AM
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I'm having a hard time figuring out why this was filed as a "Health" article
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  #3  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2009, 10:47 AM
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Argh. Can we find some way of banning politicians and bureaucrats?
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  #4  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2009, 2:45 PM
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Even as a car driver, I can't say this bugs me too much. Parking is still pretty cheap around here compared to a lot of cities.
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  #5  
Old Posted Dec 16, 2009, 8:39 PM
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http://www.vancouversun.com/business...250/story.html

Quote:
So as of Jan. 1, when TransLink is poised to triple the provincial sales tax on parking, the total rate, when combined with the federal GST, will be 27.05 per cent, not 26 per cent as I -- and, not incidentally, as the parking companies who must collect and remit this money--had thought.

And as of July 1, when the five-percent GST becomes the 12-per-cent HST, the hit will rise to 35.52 per cent, not the 33 per cent level that we nongovernment types -- unskilled as we are in the art of gouging--had naively assumed.

The difference is in the math. You get 26 and 33 per cent when you add the two tax rates together. You get the higher values when you apply the GST rate, or HST rate, to not just the cost of parking, but also the 21-per-cent tax imposed under provincial legislation.

At present, the seven-per-cent provincial tax on parking and the GST aren't compounded -- they're merely added together to get a total of 12 per cent.

So why will the two rates be compounded in the future?

According to an e-mail from the provincial Ministry of Finance, "because under the federal Excise Tax Act (the GST legislation) a tax rate that is more than four points above the provincial retail sales tax rate (in B.C. that means 12 per cent or higher) is subject to the GST."

Ditto after the HST kicks in on July 1, the e-mail said.
To me this isn't really an HST issue as parking is already charged PST and HST, this is a transit tax issue. SO bringing up HST like it is the root of all evil in this province just doesn't work for me. The parking tax is thanks in no small part due to Translink and the Mayors of Metro Vancouver.

Also, the high PST on parking would have been subject to the tax on a tax, the GST would be charged on the total of parking and PST. And other provinces already charge their own PST ontop of GST anyway, like Quebec. So really, some people should look up some tax laws before they start to claim that the HST is changing everything. This tax on parking would still be here without the HST.
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Old Posted Dec 16, 2009, 9:42 PM
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Heaven forbid the greenwashers ever succeed in their goal to eliminate cars. How would they ever fund transit without parking taxes, gas taxes etc etc.? Transit riders would actually have to pay the real cost of their trip.
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  #7  
Old Posted Dec 16, 2009, 9:52 PM
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Originally Posted by BCPhil View Post
So really, some people should look up some tax laws before they start to claim that the HST is changing everything. This tax on parking would still be here without the HST.
The anti-HST lobby is pissing me off more each day.

Fitting that the main mouthpiece is Vander Zalm.
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  #8  
Old Posted Dec 16, 2009, 10:54 PM
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Heaven forbid the greenwashers ever succeed in their goal to eliminate cars. How would they ever fund transit without parking taxes, gas taxes etc etc.? Transit riders would actually have to pay the real cost of their trip.
I was thinking this...

Wouldn't it be better for Translink to get revenue from a tax that does not decrease as transit usage increases? :-)
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Old Posted Dec 17, 2009, 12:40 AM
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Heaven forbid the greenwashers ever succeed in their goal to eliminate cars. How would they ever fund transit without parking taxes, gas taxes etc etc.? Transit riders would actually have to pay the real cost of their trip.
No problem. At those levels of use, transit can pay for itself and even make a profit. Just look at Hong Kong, or streetcars in North America 100 years ago.

Anyway, property taxes pay for streets in Vancouver so it is not like drivers pay the full cost. Then there is the health care costs of injuries due to auto crashes that is paid for by everyone.

Even better, lets get rid of socialized roads and let the market take over. Roads could be profit centres that who help fund other priorities rather than be supported by taxpayer dollars.
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  #10  
Old Posted Dec 17, 2009, 1:18 AM
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No problem. At those levels of use, transit can pay for itself and even make a profit. Just look at Hong Kong, or streetcars in North America 100 years ago.
An interesting theory, what other transit systems around the world make money?

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Anyway, property taxes pay for streets in Vancouver so it is not like drivers pay the full cost. Then there is the health care costs of injuries due to auto crashes that is paid for by everyone.
Any idea what percentage of property tax payers have cars? I haven't been able to find that stat.

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Even better, lets get rid of socialized roads and let the market take over. Roads could be profit centres that who help fund other priorities rather than be supported by taxpayer dollars.
Sounds good in theory, but I don't expect citizens would be thrilled with the increase in prices as virtually all consumer goods are delivered by road. Would we also turn sidewalks into profit centres? After all, they do require maintenance.
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  #11  
Old Posted Dec 17, 2009, 3:38 AM
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Sounds good in theory, but I don't expect citizens would be thrilled with the increase in prices as virtually all consumer goods are delivered by road. Would we also turn sidewalks into profit centres? After all, they do require maintenance.

Those are pretty weak arguments against user fees for roads.

The maintenance is paid for by consumers either way, either in the form of taxes or higher prices. Cut taxes appropriately and that would be politically palatable for most people.

Sidewalks aren't comparable. It's far, far easier to charge individual users for road use than it is to charge pedestrians. Also, there's hardly any externalities associated with their use.

That said, I still think it's a bit silly when a gas tax accomplishes nearly the same purpose much more simply.
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  #12  
Old Posted Dec 17, 2009, 4:29 AM
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Those are pretty weak arguments against user fees for roads.

The maintenance is paid for by consumers either way, either in the form of taxes or higher prices. Cut taxes appropriately and that would be politically palatable for most people.

Sidewalks aren't comparable. It's far, far easier to charge individual users for road use than it is to charge pedestrians. Also, there's hardly any externalities associated with their use.

That said, I still think it's a bit silly when a gas tax accomplishes nearly the same purpose much more simply.
How about we also add user fees to Hospitals, Doctor Offices, and Emergency rooms. I'm not sick; there is no reason my hard earned tax money should go to saving people who were foolish enough to get in an automobile accident or get cancer. Maybe if it cost money to take care of yourself while you were sick people would eat right, stay healthy, and stay out of trouble.

[/devils advocate]

Everyone always seems to be all for user pay systems until it's for something they use.

Cheap/free roads and travel are as important, if not more so, to our economy and way of life than cheap/free healthcare.

There is a reason that there is a general tax pool where politicians (and the people) decide what is important enough to spend money on, otherwise we would just be America.
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  #13  
Old Posted Dec 17, 2009, 4:53 AM
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Even better, lets get rid of socialized roads and let the market take over. Roads could be profit centres that who help fund other priorities rather than be supported by taxpayer dollars.
Don't forget to add bicycle lanes to the things to charge for in that case. And in another thread you were railing against big-city urbanness in places like Hong Kong, and now you're for it? lolwat.
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  #14  
Old Posted Dec 17, 2009, 5:06 AM
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Originally Posted by BCPhil View Post
How about we also add user fees to Hospitals, Doctor Offices, and Emergency rooms. I'm not sick; there is no reason my hard earned tax money should go to saving people who were foolish enough to get in an automobile accident or get cancer. Maybe if it cost money to take care of yourself while you were sick people would eat right, stay healthy, and stay out of trouble.

[/devils advocate]
Not a very convincing advocate.

I believe in some form of income redistribution from rich to poor, whether that's through whether that's through directly subsidized/free healthcare, cash transfers or something else.

Roads are an entirely different beast from healthcare. I don't see any reason for the general population to subsidize the heaviest road users (and therefore encourage more road use), do you?

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Cheap/free roads and travel are as important, if not more so, to our economy and way of life than cheap/free healthcare.
Please explain how our economy would be damaged if the costs of road maintenance were shifted from the general population to road-users.

While you're at it, please explain why someone who never drives should have to pay the same amount for road maintenance as someone who drives everywhere.

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There is a reason that there is a general tax pool where politicians (and the people) decide what is important enough to spend money on, otherwise we would just be America.
Ahh, the "but that's how America does it!" non-argument.

Really, is it that offensive to the Canadian way of life to charge road users for the upkeep of the infrastructure they use? Especially when it can be done simply and transparently through a gas tax?
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  #15  
Old Posted Dec 17, 2009, 5:19 AM
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Let's not get so personal. Address statements, not the member.
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  #16  
Old Posted Dec 17, 2009, 5:45 AM
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The reason why we all pay for the services we do not use (or percive we don't use) is that that is a part of the social contract that we all unwillingly signed by being born into the society of our parents. I guess today you don't have much of a choice as you cannot just pickup your things and make a new country/society if you feel oppressed. That sucks I guess...

The arguments were you say I do not use X at all or as much so therefore I should not pay for it are kind of pointless as either sooner or later you will use X, or X is part of a long chain of things that you actually happen to use. For example, roads are used to deliver merchandise which you buy and without which the city life would not be possible. The hospitals, even if you are not sick that often, are likely the place you were born or where your kids will be born and have greater change of being alive. Same goes for schools and other parts of the public infrastructure. Any kind of extreme statement like that are kind of naive at best. I think the best argument you could make is to say that it would be a good idea to SHIFT the cost to the heaviest users. But guess what would happen next - the heaviest users will shift the cost back to you. It's a zero sum game. Just like the taxes.
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  #17  
Old Posted Dec 17, 2009, 6:10 AM
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The arguments were you say I do not use X at all or as much so therefore I should not pay for it are kind of pointless as either sooner or later you will use X, or X is part of a long chain of things that you actually happen to use.
..and with user fees of some sort, you will pay for it (either directly, or indirectly through slightly higher costs for something else). But light users will pay less, and heavy users will pay more. Far more fair than the current system which obviously encourages excessive road use through the free rider problem.

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I think the best argument you could make is to say that it would be a good idea to SHIFT the cost to the heaviest users.
Yes, that's my argument. A gas tax (or however you want to do it) will result in the heaviest users paying more. Note that my definition of "heaviest user" includes people who use the roads indirectly a lot.
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  #18  
Old Posted Dec 17, 2009, 6:36 AM
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It's still easier to have just one tax. There's not really any point in administering 2 taxes, paying the overhead of both axes and adding pointless complexity to our system. As is, even in a decently efficient car your probably paying $.03 /km in tax for gas. If it needs to be more increase the tax on.

I see no problems with boosting the gas tax accordingly. Efficient cars are rewarded, excessive SUVs and guzzlers are punished, electrics gain additional incentive, and no one has to do anything new. No additional overhead. No new bureaucrats. No expensive tolling infrastructure. No GPS in car (oregon's idea). Beautiful.
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Old Posted Dec 17, 2009, 6:10 PM
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Originally Posted by quobobo View Post
Roads are an entirely different beast from healthcare. I don't see any reason for the general population to subsidize the heaviest road users (and therefore encourage more road use), do you?

Please explain how our economy would be damaged if the costs of road maintenance were shifted from the general population to road-users.

While you're at it, please explain why someone who never drives should have to pay the same amount for road maintenance as someone who drives everywhere.

Ahh, the "but that's how America does it!" non-argument.

Really, is it that offensive to the Canadian way of life to charge road users for the upkeep of the infrastructure they use? Especially when it can be done simply and transparently through a gas tax?
How is healthcare a different beast than infrastructure? The average spent on healthcare is over $5000 per person in Canada. I don't know about you, but I definitely don't spend that much on my 1 or 2 doctor visits every few years. I don't know if I've even cost the system that much in the past 10 years. Maybe I would be better off with that $50,000 in my pocket (or more if you consider that is just the average over the whole population). Users of health care could save up money or buy insurance and pay for it themselves.

Roads and transportation are a cornerstone of our civilization. Roads have dominated western culture for over 2000 years. It doesn't matter what you do in life, or how much you do or don't drive. You benefit from roads directly from just being in this country. Roads support our economy. Millions use roads to get to work and to go shopping where they inject money into and fuel the economy.

The reason health care is provided by the state at no cost is so that everyone can afford it. We have decided that it is not right to be disenfranchised on healthcare based on your standing in life. A good decision if you ask me, one of the best we've ever made as a country.

Same goes for roads. Freedom of movement is important to our society, regardless if you are poor or rich. The poor need to get around just as much, if not more, than the rich. What makes a corporate vice president from West Vancouver getting to work downtown more important than thousands of low wage earners getting to their jobs that they have to live far away from because they can't afford to live closer? At the end of the day, in the big picture of the overall economy, everyone is just as important in making the wheels of society turn. That's why we have things like all people being considered equal. On the micro level we're not (some people have more money, skill, athleticism, or education), on the macro level we definitely are, because we all contribute something.

Making people who are struggling to meet ends meet pay for their movement is as harmful as making them pay for their health care. With a general tax base, the rich and wealthy, who amasses their wealth based on the infrastructure provided that they take advantage of, can pay a disproportionate amount compared to what they personally use. You might not drive a lot, but your income and standard of living is dependent on other people being able to get around.

You might live in the building across the street from where you work at the corporate headquarters of a retail chain, you might never use a road or transit, but your job exists solely because other people are able to use roads and transit to get to their job and make money so they can use roads to get to the store and spend their money buying things from the company you work for.

On a personal opinion note, I also think we pay too much for transit in user fees. Transit, like other services provided by the state, should be payed for by the state. The fees on taking a bus are just as harmful on the poor and middle class like expensive tolls on bridges or fees on healthcare are.
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Old Posted Dec 17, 2009, 7:50 PM
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BCPhil, you're essentially saying that free roads are an acceptably efficient way to redistribute wealth (!?!?). Come on, I think we can do better than that. You're also completely ignoring the inefficiencies associated with free roads from the free rider problem.

Your main argument seems to be that user fees for roads are regressive. If they are, that doesn't mean they're inherently bad - just that you should probably compensate for them by using the revenue to lower other regressive taxes.

Quote:
On a personal opinion note, I also think we pay too much for transit in user fees. Transit, like other services provided by the state, should be payed for by the state. The fees on taking a bus are just as harmful on the poor and middle class like expensive tolls on bridges or fees on healthcare are.
Consider just giving people cash (tax refunds, lower taxes on the poor and middle class, whatever) and letting them decide what to do with it.

Seriously, if you're barely scraping by and might not be able to pay rent, what would you prefer?

1) Road access or a bus pass paid for by the state

2) An equivalent amount of cash to spend on whatever you see fit: food, rent, tuition, or maybe even road access

If you actually want to help people you'll choose 2.
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