[Saint John] Port Development

[cdnguys]

Exactly 1/3 larger than Saint John Costco

[DyAm00394]

This was shared over on Retail Talk & Share NB. A notice that was sent out about the cold storage facility.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

• Video Link

Prime Minister Trudeau has recently been pushing for housing to be built on federal owned lands and existing properties, including federal owned port lands. Needless to say, there's all kinds of opportunities for such developments here in the Saint John Region, especially within the core of Saint John.



Not quite everything shaded in in this map is federally owned, but most of it is.

There's quite a lot of room to build some mid rises and high rises on federal owned Port SJ land on both sides of the harbour, more at Barack Green Armoury, and HMCS Brunswicker land.



Better yet, imagine if Saint John could get back one of the soon to be retired Halifax class frigates that were built at Saint John Shipbuilding to "come back" to Saint John replace and the "ship on land" portion of the HMCS Brunswicker, clearing up even more room for housing to be built on that site. It would be quite a sight to behold to see a ship like that tied up at Saint John Harbour, and even more amazing to see it out on the harbour being used as a training ship.

This would be a more long term project of course, but still full achievable within a decade.

In terms of places right now that should be looked at, part of the Lower Cove Terminal is perhaps the best candidate for being utilized to build housing.



The second best place is probably the AIM site.



Some mid and high rises at the former AIM site and on a portion of the Lower Cove Terminal land would be the perfect opportunity and reason to bring back the Saint John Harbour Ferry. Perfect place to live as a port worker, or for someone who works Uptown. Perfect opportunity for Trudeau to do something about the housing crisis with some bold, outside the box thinking... the type of solutions we need to utilize in order to solve the housing crisis!




It would be such a positive transformation for the city (and West Side especially) to go from AIM's filthy operation, to some stunning, modern residential towers, connected by a ferry service to the other side at Lower Cove Terminal where some neo-art deco residential towers be erected, it would be a symbolic link between Saint John's historic past, and a brighter, modern future.

Have to admit, I was pleasantly surprised that JT actually suggested something so outside the out the box! If Wayne Long was smart, he'd pounce on this opportunity to get some housing built on federally owned property, while he's still in office. Saint Johners should contact their MP, and other relevant federal, provincial, and municipal officials to get something done on this front. We have more federally owned land than most cities in Canada... we should be pushing for something to be done in this regard, especially since the Prime Minister seems to thinks it's a good idea... and at least he knows where Port Saint John is.

[cdnguys]

The low hanging fruit would be the underused Customs building on corner of Duke and Prince William. I’m sure you could get at least 65 apartments in there. From what I understand it’s mostly used for storage.

[bridgeoftea]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

The low hanging fruit would be the underused Customs building on corner of Duke and Prince William. I’m sure you could get at least 65 apartments in there. From what I understand it’s mostly used for storage.

It's a shame 10 Sydney is linked to Irving. As that building would be a good apartment spot as well.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

The low hanging fruit would be the underused Customs building on corner of Duke and Prince William. I’m sure you could get at least 65 apartments in there. From what I understand it’s mostly used for storage.

And the parking lot beside it.

Seems like the idea has been kicking around for nearly 10 years.....

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-b...fall-1.3116245

[adamuptownsj]

I hate having to rehash 'the port and its operator will not and should not turn over hundreds of thousands of square feet of strategically important logistics land for housing' every few months, I really do. Saint John has a mind-boggling amount of disused brownfield in the PDA-- and along transit routes, at that-- which is severely undertaxed. We also have a port that's booming and receiving investment for the first time in my life. It would be downright malevolent to jam housing into the ONLY PLACE THE PORT CAN REALISTICALLY EXPAND INTO.

Does this account not want a working port? It treats federal land that's key to our city's relevance like a cul-de-sac off Heather Way. 'Housing' packed between the ocean, a container terminal, a rail line, and a 60' warehouse is totally quixotic and would castrate a key industry.

Would it be cool to eventually develop Long Wharf and Lower Cove? Yes. Emphasis on eventually.

Repurposing the Customs building is absolutely interesting, of course. Standard concerns about the office-oriented floor plate apply.

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by bridgeoftea

It's a shame 10 Sydney is linked to Irving. As that building would be a good apartment spot as well.

AFAIK most of IOL's 'green energy' business unit is based there. It's mostly occupied. It had been vacant for a bit following IOL HQ completion but no longer.

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by bridgeoftea

It's a shame 10 Sydney is linked to Irving. As that building would be a good apartment spot as well.

That building is now occupied as lab/research for future of fuels - not sitting empty. Also, apparently it’s owned by the JDI part of Irving family.

[darkharbour]

I think the bigger potential on Water Street isn’t the Customs Building itself but the huge parking lot next to it. Move that parking underground and build 10+ storeys on top.

Also, the federal Barrack Green site won’t be utilized forever, that’s been openly discussed for years. That is a massive site and could have a lot of potential to subdivide as development land moving forward.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by darkharbour

I think the bigger potential on Water Street isn’t the Customs Building itself but the huge parking lot next to it. Move that parking underground and build 10+ storeys on top.

Also, the federal Barrack Green site won’t be utilized forever, that’s been openly discussed for years. That is a massive site and could have a lot of potential to subdivide as development land moving forward.

I agree. Sad when you think what once stood there and the fact that it's been just a parking lot for over 60 years.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-b...park-1.5139929

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

I hate having to rehash 'the port and its operator will not and should not turn over hundreds of thousands of square feet of strategically important logistics land for housing' every few months, I really do. Saint John has a mind-boggling amount of disused brownfield in the PDA-- and along transit routes, at that-- which is severely undertaxed. We also have a port that's booming and receiving investment for the first time in my life. It would be downright malevolent to jam housing into the ONLY PLACE THE PORT CAN REALISTICALLY EXPAND INTO.

Does this account not want a working port? It treats federal land that's key to our city's relevance like a cul-de-sac off Heather Way. 'Housing' packed between the ocean, a container terminal, a rail line, and a 60' warehouse is totally quixotic and would castrate a key industry.

Would it be cool to eventually develop Long Wharf and Lower Cove? Yes. Emphasis on eventually.

Repurposing the Customs building is absolutely interesting, of course. Standard concerns about the office-oriented floor plate apply.

Is hyperbolic your only mode? Because it’s utter hyperbole to suggest building some apartment buildings on the former AIM site, and squeezing a few in at Lower Cove would “castrate” the port It’s not binary, the port can remain highly productive AND squeeze in some housing on under-utilized port land. And really, every few months? Trudeau hadn’t been suggesting build housing at federally owned port lands until recently. Haven’t seen many people suggest it on here either…

Both AIM and Lower Cove terminal take up a huge amount of prime, oceanfront real estate to house giant piles of scrap and raw materials. It’s not the greatest land use to put it mildly.

Lower Cove terminal could still be productive if it gave up some land for some mid rise apartments to go up between the cruise terminal, and directly along the harbour frontage. Some mid rises along the Lower Cove harbour front would do a good job hiding the giant piles of raw materials that currently create an ugly juxtaposition between the cruise ship terminal and the giant piles of raw materials. It certainly wouldn’t shut down the site or “castrate” the port… like come on man

As for the AIM site… it’s absurd to suggest there couldn’t be some mid and high rise residential buildings built there, while surrendering a majority of the site back to the port for their operations. And yes, such developments on both sides of the harbour could be the impetus for bringing back a harbour ferry.

It seems your biggest problem with this idea, is that it might actually convince some people that Trudeau and the federal Liberals are actually doing something about housing, which might hurt PP’s chance at winning a majority in 2025. I’ve read your previous posts relating to politics, and it’s clear you’re quite the conservative partisan.

You didn’t even mention possibly the best idea that I “floated” either, that being the one to bring back one of the Halifax class frigates that were built here in Saint John to replace the ship on land part of the HMCS Brunswicker, freeing up more space to build some housing on that pretty sizeable piece of federally owned land. Plus, it’s kind of lame that the HMCS Brunswicker isn’t even a real ship… let’s fix that.

I’m sure even you and Sailor would love to see one of the frigates tied up in Saint John harbour… even if y’all both seem to automatically disagree with anything I suggest!

[CharlotteCountyLogan]

My opinion on housing at the AIM site is that not many people want to live next door to a working port and the proposed new cold storage warehouse. Also that land is probably very polluted and may cost a unknown amount of money to make it suitable for residential housing if at all. I can agree on housing at lower cove and perhaps long wharf but housing at the AIM site is in my opinion never going to happen.

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Is hyperbolic your only mode? Because it’s utter hyperbole to suggest building some apartment buildings on the former AIM site, and squeezing a few in at Lower Cove would “castrate” the port It’s not binary, the port can remain highly productive AND squeeze in some housing on under-utilized port land. And really, every few months? Trudeau hadn’t been suggesting build housing at federally owned port lands until recently. Haven’t seen many people suggest it on here either…

Both AIM and Lower Cove terminal take up a huge amount of prime, oceanfront real estate to house giant piles of scrap and raw materials. It’s not the greatest land use to put it mildly.

Lower Cove terminal could still be productive if it gave up some land for some mid rise apartments to go up between the cruise terminal, and directly along the harbour frontage. Some mid rises along the Lower Cove harbour front would do a good job hiding the giant piles of raw materials that currently create an ugly juxtaposition between the cruise ship terminal and the giant piles of raw materials. It certainly wouldn’t shut down the site or “castrate” the port… like come on man

As for the AIM site… it’s absurd to suggest there couldn’t be some mid and high rise residential buildings built there, while surrendering a majority of the site back to the port for their operations. And yes, such developments on both sides of the harbour could be the impetus for bringing back a harbour ferry.

It seems your biggest problem with this idea, is that it might actually convince some people that Trudeau and the federal Liberals are actually doing something about housing, which might hurt PP’s chance at winning a majority in 2025. I’ve read your previous posts relating to politics, and it’s clear you’re quite the conservative partisan.

You didn’t even mention possibly the best idea that I “floated” either, that being the one to bring back one of the Halifax class frigates that were built here in Saint John to replace the ship on land part of the HMCS Brunswicker, freeing up more space to build some housing on that pretty sizeable piece of federally owned land. Plus, it’s kind of lame that the HMCS Brunswicker isn’t even a real ship… let’s fix that.

I’m sure even you and Sailor would love to see one of the frigates tied up in Saint John harbour… even if y’all both seem to automatically disagree with anything I suggest!

HMCS Brunswicker is a reserve unit that requires a lot of space, including a parade square inside. ALL 24 naval reserve units across Canada are buildings so it’s not like Saint John is odd duck out, and they all take the moniker HMCS. Frigates are part of the regular force navy on rotation that would never be tied up long term, especially for the reason you mention. My fondest memories are being in the naval reserves when we occupied the Ordinance Building on Sydney Street by tin can beach. And nothing special having a ship made in Saint John - quality wise they are (or were) inferior to the ones made in Quebec, from slanted engines to sloppily wrapped pipes. It’s better to build on the vast tracs of “unpolluted” lands such as Long Wharf and Smythe Street.

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Is hyperbolic your only mode? Because it’s utter hyperbole to suggest building some apartment buildings on the former AIM site, and squeezing a few in at Lower Cove would “castrate” the port It’s not binary, the port can remain highly productive AND squeeze in some housing on under-utilized port land. And really, every few months? Trudeau hadn’t been suggesting build housing at federally owned port lands until recently. Haven’t seen many people suggest it on here either…

Both AIM and Lower Cove terminal take up a huge amount of prime, oceanfront real estate to house giant piles of scrap and raw materials. It’s not the greatest land use to put it mildly.

Lower Cove terminal could still be productive if it gave up some land for some mid rise apartments to go up between the cruise terminal, and directly along the harbour frontage. Some mid rises along the Lower Cove harbour front would do a good job hiding the giant piles of raw materials that currently create an ugly juxtaposition between the cruise ship terminal and the giant piles of raw materials. It certainly wouldn’t shut down the site or “castrate” the port… like come on man

As for the AIM site… it’s absurd to suggest there couldn’t be some mid and high rise residential buildings built there, while surrendering a majority of the site back to the port for their operations. And yes, such developments on both sides of the harbour could be the impetus for bringing back a harbour ferry.

It seems your biggest problem with this idea, is that it might actually convince some people that Trudeau and the federal Liberals are actually doing something about housing, which might hurt PP’s chance at winning a majority in 2025. I’ve read your previous posts relating to politics, and it’s clear you’re quite the conservative partisan.

You didn’t even mention possibly the best idea that I “floated” either, that being the one to bring back one of the Halifax class frigates that were built here in Saint John to replace the ship on land part of the HMCS Brunswicker, freeing up more space to build some housing on that pretty sizeable piece of federally owned land. Plus, it’s kind of lame that the HMCS Brunswicker isn’t even a real ship… let’s fix that.

I’m sure even you and Sailor would love to see one of the frigates tied up in Saint John harbour… even if y’all both seem to automatically disagree with anything I suggest!

OK lol you didn't even read my post. Building at the AIM site, which is almost explicitly targeted for a RoRo terminal and additional cranes, would indeed neuter the port. How would people even get in and out? an overpass from Queen St. West? I could not have been more clear that Lower Cove could probably be developed once AIM is gone and the port can use that space. You have this bizarre pipe dream of the port not really working or growing, and affordable housing replacing strategic federal land in a city with thousands of acres of undeveloped, serviced, PDA land. Even if waterfront opens up, by the value of it alone, it should be for mostly market housing.

Don't get me started on Trudeau. It's his fault in the first place. 'Doing something on housing' would start with not importing millions of people in less than a decade, not raising capital gains taxes to the moon, and not implementing expensive environmental standards above and beyond the 2020 building code to unlock 'federal housing money'. If you believe a Q2 2024 announcement that the port will be turned into 5-and-1s at some indeterminate point will make us mentally go back to 2015, you're totally mistaken. Trudeau made the mess. He can't buy his way out of it with Albertan taxpayer money at this point. And don't think I care about Poilievre, all he's good for is taking taxes back down to Harper level and nuking the CBC.

I am totally opposed to the boat lol. The Canadian military is a futile venture that hasn't won a war since Korea. Why do we need a rusty old boat clogging up the harbour to be used as cadet office space? The Brunswicker is a serviceable facility. There is no race to declare every federal facility in the city surplus. Why not just buy or expropriate Brideau's 15% of the Old North End at FMV and build there, where there's already schools, sewers, and streets, if the feds are going to get into residential construction?

There's dozens of posts on here about finding a better use for Lower Cove and for Long Wharf. I've made many of them. Nothing is going to happen until the port can make use of AIM's site, and for the city to make serious progress on Fundy Quay.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Is hyperbolic your only mode? Because it’s utter hyperbole to suggest building some apartment buildings on the former AIM site, and squeezing a few in at Lower Cove would “castrate” the port It’s not binary, the port can remain highly productive AND squeeze in some housing on under-utilized port land. And really, every few months? Trudeau hadn’t been suggesting build housing at federally owned port lands until recently. Haven’t seen many people suggest it on here either…

Both AIM and Lower Cove terminal take up a huge amount of prime, oceanfront real estate to house giant piles of scrap and raw materials. It’s not the greatest land use to put it mildly.

Lower Cove terminal could still be productive if it gave up some land for some mid rise apartments to go up between the cruise terminal, and directly along the harbour frontage. Some mid rises along the Lower Cove harbour front would do a good job hiding the giant piles of raw materials that currently create an ugly juxtaposition between the cruise ship terminal and the giant piles of raw materials. It certainly wouldn’t shut down the site or “castrate” the port… like come on man

As for the AIM site… it’s absurd to suggest there couldn’t be some mid and high rise residential buildings built there, while surrendering a majority of the site back to the port for their operations. And yes, such developments on both sides of the harbour could be the impetus for bringing back a harbour ferry.

It seems your biggest problem with this idea, is that it might actually convince some people that Trudeau and the federal Liberals are actually doing something about housing, which might hurt PP’s chance at winning a majority in 2025. I’ve read your previous posts relating to politics, and it’s clear you’re quite the conservative partisan.

You didn’t even mention possibly the best idea that I “floated” either, that being the one to bring back one of the Halifax class frigates that were built here in Saint John to replace the ship on land part of the HMCS Brunswicker, freeing up more space to build some housing on that pretty sizeable piece of federally owned land. Plus, it’s kind of lame that the HMCS Brunswicker isn’t even a real ship… let’s fix that.

I’m sure even you and Sailor would love to see one of the frigates tied up in Saint John harbour… even if y’all both seem to automatically disagree with anything I suggest!

I don't automatically disagree with anything you suggest.........Just the suggestions that are wildly unrealistic and nonsensical......oh wait.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by CharlotteCountyLogan

My opinion on housing at the AIM site is that not many people want to live next door to a working port and the proposed new cold storage warehouse. Also that land is probably very polluted and may cost a unknown amount of money to make it suitable for residential housing if at all. I can agree on housing at lower cove and perhaps long wharf but housing at the AIM site is in my opinion never going to happen.

There's already all kinds of people that live beside the port, and already all kinds of people that live directly beside AIM (Blue Rock Court) and AIM is about 1000 times more disruptive than container shipping operations at the port, or the cold storage operations will be in the future.

Not sure how much the pollution in the ground at AIM would impact people living in 10-15+ storey buildings with underground parking. They don't need to have gardens for food surrounding the buildings or something, right?

I'd love to live there, personally... the views of the ocean would be incredible, and the birds eye view you'd have of the port and giant ships coming in every day would be even more amazing. With AIM shut down, I doubt it would be any more of a disruptive in terms of noise than those half a million dollar homes on Sea Street beside the Bayshore train-yard. It would be nothing in terms of noise compared to any big city like Toronto, Montreal, let alone New York.

It would be a great place for people who work at the Port or the new cold storage facility to rent or buy an apartment or condo... but also a great place for people to live who work Uptown, especially it it was part of the impetus for bringing back the cross harbour ferry to connect the lower west and central peninsula.



There's ample room for the port to expand their operations into the AIM site AND building some housing in the form of mid and high rise towers.

Long Wharf and Lower Cove are no brainers for some mid rise and high rise residential, but part of the AIM could definitely be made to work, too, it just takes some outside the box thinking and solutions to make them accessible locations to the public. It would be a gigantic improvement over what exists there now within the yellow outlined area, and quite a cool place to live in a high rise.

[CharlotteCountyLogan]

I'm inclined to agree with Adam that there are much better federal sites to build housing on and that building housing on port lands would negativity impact future growth at the port but everybody has their own opinions. Cheers.

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

There's already all kinds of people that live beside the port, and already all kinds of people that live directly beside AIM (Blue Rock Court) and AIM is about 1000 times more disruptive than container shipping operations at the port, or the cold storage operations will be in the future.

Not sure how much the pollution in the ground at AIM would impact people living in 10-15+ storey buildings with underground parking. They don't need to have gardens for food surrounding the buildings or something, right?

I'd love to live there, personally... the views of the ocean would be incredible, and the birds eye view you'd have of the port and giant ships coming in every day would be even more amazing. With AIM shut down, I doubt it would be any more of a disruptive in terms of noise than those half a million dollar homes on Sea Street beside the Bayshore train-yard. It would be nothing in terms of noise compared to any big city like Toronto, Montreal, let alone New York.

It would be a great place for people who work at the Port or the new cold storage facility to rent or buy an apartment or condo... but also a great place for people to live who work Uptown, especially it it was part of the impetus for bringing back the cross harbour ferry to connect the lower west and central peninsula.



There's ample room for the port to expand their operations into the AIM site AND building some housing in the form of mid and high rise towers.

Long Wharf and Lower Cove are no brainers for some mid rise and high rise residential, but part of the AIM could definitely be made to work, too, it just takes some outside the box thinking and solutions to make them accessible locations to the public. It would be a gigantic improvement over what exists there now within the yellow outlined area, and quite a cool place to live in a high rise.

You’re not allowed to build residential on polluted sites, even if buried under concrete.

[JakeNB]

Saint John does not suffer from lack of land for potential housing development. For example, if the demand was there Fundy Quay could be built out in 5 years rather than 10. The Leinster/Crown site could be developed, the Landmark, and others. Not to mention the Baxter Dairys site, sugar refinery, etc.