Roads/Bridges projects/issues

[lrt's friend]

“Instead of building an unnecessary bridge, these funds could help extend the line and deliver light rail transit further east, west and south even sooner,” he said in the statement.

I think this says it all, or what it doesn't say. What it doesn't say is 'north'. Who is exactly doing some overall planning for the metropolitan area as a whole? Without the NCC, nobody is doing anything. It is for this exact reason that we have masses of truck traffic inefficiently running through the centre of the city. It is for this reason that the Prince of Wales Bridge sits unused. It is for this reason that Gatineau is building a busway while Ottawa is moving towards rail to serve downtown.

All I see are politicians with vested interests. The mayor wanting to move money to light rail in Ottawa only from an interprovincial project. Politicians screaming for their local constituents. We haven't built a bridge in 40 years and the city has grown substantially. It is time for our politicians to serve the greater good and suck it up and do their job and work together productively.

Bah!

[JM1]

I think you are being unfair to the mayor. I think he would probably support light rail to Gatineau. The problem is, Gatineau has decided against light rail in Gatineau and doesn't seem supportive of a connection across the Prince of Wales. Gatineau is stuck with its own political issues and fears that if you make commuting to Ottawa too easy, everyone will just go to Ottawa to shop, etc...

Personally, I don't believe this. I think if you integrated public transit between Ottawa and Gatineau, you would actuall serve both communities. Imagine a light rail circulator that ran on Ottawa's LRT line between Bayview and Rideau, then tunnelled underground along Rideau and King Edward (cut and cover) to the MacDonald Cartier Bridge, along Allumetieres, to the Rapidbus line, and then back to Bayview along the rail right of way.

I would much rather money be spent on something like this than a stupid bridge. And I think the mayor would be supportive of that too (although he might place it as a secondary priority to extending light rail to his own suburbs, which are home to his constituents).

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I think this says it all, or what it doesn't say. What it doesn't say is 'north'. Who is exactly doing some overall planning for the metropolitan area as a whole? Without the NCC, nobody is doing anything. It is for this exact reason that we have masses of truck traffic inefficiently running through the centre of the city. It is for this reason that the Prince of Wales Bridge sits unused. It is for this reason that Gatineau is building a busway while Ottawa is moving towards rail to serve downtown.

All I see are politicians with vested interests. The mayor wanting to move money to light rail in Ottawa only from an interprovincial project. Politicians screaming for their local constituents. We haven't built a bridge in 40 years and the city has grown substantially. It is time for our politicians to serve the greater good and suck it up and do their job and work together productively.

Bah!

[Capital Shaun]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I think this says it all, or what it doesn't say. What it doesn't say is 'north'. Who is exactly doing some overall planning for the metropolitan area as a whole? Without the NCC, nobody is doing anything. It is for this exact reason that we have masses of truck traffic inefficiently running through the centre of the city. It is for this reason that the Prince of Wales Bridge sits unused. It is for this reason that Gatineau is building a busway while Ottawa is moving towards rail to serve downtown.

All I see are politicians with vested interests. The mayor wanting to move money to light rail in Ottawa only from an interprovincial project. Politicians screaming for their local constituents. We haven't built a bridge in 40 years and the city has grown substantially. It is time for our politicians to serve the greater good and suck it up and do their job and work together productively.

Bah!

I agree. Watson isn't proposing an alternative to the bridge. Even if we build LRT to Orleans and even if the Rapibus was LRT, you would still have poor connections between East Gatineau and East Ottawa and all the traffic (car/truck/bus/bike/ped/LRT...) between those two areas would still go through Lower Town.

[JM1]

My point is that we should fix the poor transit connections between the two cities downtown. That is where the demand is -- not between Gatineau East and Ottawa East.

Originally Posted by Capital Shaun

I agree. Watson isn't proposing an alternative to the bridge. Even if we build LRT to Orleans and even if the Rapibus was LRT, you would still have poor connections between East Gatineau and East Ottawa and all the traffic (car/truck/bus/bike/ped/LRT...) between those two areas would still go through Lower Town.

[NOWINYOW]

Originally Posted by JM1

...The problem is, Gatineau has decided against light rail in Gatineau and doesn't seem supportive of a connection across the Prince of Wales....

Gatineau is simply working within it's means financially.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by NOWINYOW

Gatineau is simply working within it's means financially.

Very true. It's also working with the stage of advancement (bad translation I know) that its urban development pattern is at right now.

[JM1]

There may be a small demand line between Gatineau East and Ottawa East, but the traffic studies show that the traffic to the downtowns is because that is where the bulk of demand is. Lowertown is downtown, so...

Don't get me wrong, I would like to reduce traffic in lower town. But the way to do this is not by encouraging more people to get in their cars. Even if they cross a bridge in the East End, they will likely end up in downtown Ottawa (either by coming across St Patrick or Rideau or up Nicholas().

Better LRT connections between the downtowns might actually encourage more people to get out of their cars -- something taht an East End Bridge won't do.

And for those who say there will be buses or transit across the East End bridge, please tell me how that will help people to get downtown. My guess is that that few people will use it because that line doesn't connect employment centres to population centres -- simple as that.

Originally Posted by Capital Shaun

I agree. Watson isn't proposing an alternative to the bridge. Even if we build LRT to Orleans and even if the Rapibus was LRT, you would still have poor connections between East Gatineau and East Ottawa and all the traffic (car/truck/bus/bike/ped/LRT...) between those two areas would still go through Lower Town.

[Capital Shaun]

Originally Posted by JM1

My point is that we should fix the poor transit connections between the two cities downtown. That is where the demand is -- not between Gatineau East and Ottawa East.

The mayor is asking for the bridge funding (benefits both Ottawa & Gatineau) to be redirected to our LRT (benefits only Ottawa). I don't view this as an either or proposition like the mayor does. I support an East end bridge as much as I support LRT and better transit.

[Capital Shaun]

Originally Posted by JM1

There may be a small demand line between Gatineau East and Ottawa East, but the traffic studies show that the traffic to the downtowns is because that is where the bulk of demand is. Lowertown is downtown, so...

Don't get me wrong, I would like to reduce traffic in lower town. But the way to do this is not by encouraging more people to get in their cars. Even if they cross a bridge in the East End, they will likely end up in downtown Ottawa (either by coming across St Patrick or Rideau or up Nicholas().

Better LRT connections between the downtowns might actually encourage more people to get out of their cars -- something taht an East End Bridge won't do.

And for those who say there will be buses or transit across the East End bridge, please tell me how that will help people to get downtown. My guess is that that few people will use it because that line doesn't connect employment centres to population centres -- simple as that.

I support the east end bridge because it will improve connections between both cities. In the long run as the cities continue to grow, downtown will likely still be clogged with traffic. I agree that improved transit is crucial for overall traffic reduction downtown.

But as it pertains to interprovincial transit, we need the two city governments to start admitting the other exists before we can seriously start talking about spending money.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by JM1

My point is that we should fix the poor transit connections between the two cities downtown. That is where the demand is -- not between Gatineau East and Ottawa East.

I doubt there are very many downtown to downtown trips. The main source of demand is from suburban Gatineau to downtown Ottawa, and to a lesser extent to suburban Ottawa.

I do agree with you that a better (rail?) link from Downtown to Downtown would improve all transit trips.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I doubt there are very many downtown to downtown trips. The main source of demand is from suburban Gatineau to downtown Ottawa, and to a lesser extent to suburban Ottawa.

I do agree with you that a better (rail?) link from Downtown to Downtown would improve all transit trips.

True that commuter rips to downtown Ottawa are a main pressure point (in addition to trucks), but a major secondary destination is commuting to inner east end Ottawa. I live in Gatineau east of the Gatineau River (the former city) and lots of people here also work at government offices in Vanier, French-language schools and school board offices, CMHC, CSIS, NRC, La Cité collégiale, Montfort, industrial areas around Innes and 417 (Bantree, Sheffield, Lancaster, etc.), St. Laurent shopping centre area, etc.

A Kettle Island bridge would allow these people to stop travelling through Lowertown to get to to work. There is a reason why St Patrick and Vanier Parkway and Rockcliffe Parkway are so busy.

[Dado]

Originally Posted by NOWINYOW

Gatineau is simply working within it's means financially.

Originally Posted by Acajack

Very true. It's also working with the stage of advancement (bad translation I know) that its urban development pattern is at right now.

Gatineau could easily have afforded to build an O-Train extension along the Rapibus corridor and had plenty of funds left over given the budget for the Rapibus project. As it is, the project has ended up relocating the railway for most of the corridor anyway; they could definitely have afforded to basically twin the tracks everywhere but the Gatineau River crossing.

If they had purchased the dual-mode light rail vehicles that the Mayor's Task Force recommended for the entire region they would be set up to head into downtown Ottawa however Ottawa decided to proceed.

They could even have brought the tracks right to the Portage Bridge and still stayed within the Rapibus budget.

Let's not excuse Gatineau's own poor transportation planning decisions on the basis of red herring financial arguments. Converting extant railway corridors to busway corridors with a view to converting the same corridor to light rail in the future is never going to be a smart financial move.

[Capital Shaun]

Originally Posted by Acajack

True that commuter rips to downtown Ottawa are a main pressure point (in addition to trucks), but a major secondary destination is commuting to inner east end Ottawa. I live in Gatineau east of the Gatineau River (the former city) and lots of people here also work at government offices in Vanier, French-language schools and school board offices, CMHC, CSIS, NRC, La Cité collégiale, Montfort, industrial areas around Innes and 417 (Bantree, Sheffield, Lancaster, etc.), St. Laurent shopping centre area, etc.

A Kettle Island bridge would allow these people to stop travelling through Lowertown to get to to work. There is a reason why St Patrick and Vanier Parkway and Rockcliffe Parkway are so busy.

As someone who has commuted to/from school/work/home in Ottawa East since '97 I can attest to a large number of QC plates in those employers' parking lots.

[Capital Shaun]

Originally Posted by Dado

Gatineau could easily have afforded to build an O-Train extension along the Rapibus corridor and had plenty of funds left over given the budget for the Rapibus project. As it is, the project has ended up relocating the railway for most of the corridor anyway; they could definitely have afforded to basically twin the tracks everywhere but the Gatineau River crossing.

If they had purchased the dual-mode light rail vehicles that the Mayor's Task Force recommended for the entire region they would be set up to head into downtown Ottawa however Ottawa decided to proceed.

They could even have brought the tracks right to the Portage Bridge and still stayed within the Rapibus budget.

Let's not excuse Gatineau's own poor transportation planning decisions on the basis of red herring financial arguments. Converting extant railway corridors to busway corridors with a view to converting the same corridor to light rail in the future is never going to be a smart financial move.

That's my biggest gripe about the Rapibus. They should have invested in LRT and skip the bus phaze entirely. They could have learned from Ottawa's mistakes but instead they're looking at repeating them.

[J.OT13]

You all know my position; not against Kettle Island Bridge, would prefer King Ed's Tunnel.

But can't start splitting the money between the cities for transit an alternative to the bridge because it's not an either-or situation. In fact, there is no money to speak of at all. Kettle Island is the preferred alternative, but no one has even started to consider funding this project and I don't think it will happen anytime soon.

[NOWINYOW]

Originally Posted by Dado

Let's not excuse Gatineau's own poor transportation planning decisions on the basis of red herring financial arguments. Converting extant railway corridors to busway corridors with a view to converting the same corridor to light rail in the future is never going to be a smart financial move.

I'm not intimate with the City of Gatineau finances. Your costs reflection simply represent the build process, with a lot of assumptions. This speaks nothing of day to day future maintenance costs associated with having two modes of public transit. There are higher costs involved; larger "parts" inventory, multiple maintenance facilities, more maintenance support staff, higher cost outlay for LRT vehicles, etc etc etc etc.....

I'm sure Gatineau at least discussed LRT. But remember, at the time they would have been in the discussion stage, Ottawa wasn't on board with LRT either.

[NOWINYOW]

Originally Posted by Capital Shaun

That's my biggest gripe about the Rapibus. They should have invested in LRT and skip the bus phaze entirely. They could have learned from Ottawa's mistakes but instead they're looking at repeating them.

BRT was NOT a mistake made by Ottawa. The mistake was not building the downtown tunnel back in the 80's. The mistakes go back even further; ripping up the electric street cars, not fully protesting the Feds to stop the move of the downtown train station...the list goes on.

Money doesn't grow on trees, nor does the taxpayer have an unlimited amount of cash to consistently hand over to the various levels of gov'ts to fund their pet projects. Moving gas plants, forcing windmill farms (when the wind was blowing full steam a week or two ago, Windmills weren't even getting close to 2% of the load required) not to mention hiring friends under the guise of Ont Health; E-Health, Ornge etc. And lets not forget the politicians from all political sides sucking at the teet to line their own pockets through junkets, fraud on expenses etc etc etc.

BRT was the right decision back in the '70's/'80's. I'm not convinced LRT is the right decision now.

I hope I'm proved wrong.

[Capital Shaun]

Originally Posted by NOWINYOW

I'm not intimate with the City of Gatineau finances. Your costs reflection simply represent the build process, with a lot of assumptions. This speaks nothing of day to day future maintenance costs associated with having two modes of public transit. There are higher costs involved; larger "parts" inventory, multiple maintenance facilities, more maintenance support staff, higher cost outlay for LRT vehicles, etc etc etc etc.....

I'm sure Gatineau at least discussed LRT. But remember, at the time they would have been in the discussion stage, Ottawa wasn't on board with LRT either.

And to think, if Ottawa & Gatineau had jointly planned & implemented the LRT system together, money could have been saved on shared technologies & shared maintenance facilities.

[NOWINYOW]

Originally Posted by Capital Shaun

And to think, if Ottawa & Gatineau had jointly planned & implemented the LRT system together, money could have been saved on shared technologies & shared maintenance facilities.

Ok, let's assume that. Which side gets the maintenance facilities and the associated jobs? Ottawa? Why not Gatineau? Who's to decide? Ottawa bought their LRT trains from Europe, Quebec might insist on Bombardier. What do we buy so we can share resources?

We don't even have a fair system that allows construction labour and contractors to EQUALLY work on both sides of the river. I highly doubt the two sides could come together over a shared transportation system.

Money could be saved on far more things than just transportation. Unfortunately politicians seek only the solutions that serve to get them re-elected, not what's right or could be perceived as a correct measure.

I agree, in a perfect world things would be perfect. But things aren't perfect. Imperfect people are making imperfect decisions. Gatineau did what they felt was right for their residents. Ottawa is doing what they feel is right for their residents.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by NOWINYOW

Ok, let's assume that. Which side gets the maintenance facilities and the associated jobs? Ottawa? Why not Gatineau? Who's to decide? Ottawa bought their LRT trains from Europe, Quebec might insist on Bombardier. What do we buy so we can share resources?

We don't even have a fair system that allows construction labour and contractors to EQUALLY work on both sides of the river. I highly doubt the two sides could come together over a shared transportation system.

Money could be saved on far more things than just transportation. Unfortunately politicians seek only the solutions that serve to get them re-elected, not what's right or could be perceived as a correct measure.

I agree, in a perfect world things would be perfect. But things aren't perfect. Imperfect people are making imperfect decisions. Gatineau did what they felt was right for their residents. Ottawa is doing what they feel is right for their residents.

Good analysis. Hate to bring this up but what would be the operating language of the system? Would unilingual English or even unilingual French locals be eligible for employment with the transit operation?