Roads/Bridges projects/issues

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by danishh

after stage 2, iris - tremblay/hurdman will be quick.

I don't think OTownandDown is trying to get to iris, but rather was highlighting the slowest section of the commute.

i think the best way to think about transportation in ottawa right now is that it is in transition and will not be sensible until phase 2, and maybe phase 3 for Barrhaven, is complete.

I would argue that Stage 3 to Kanata will be even more important for suburban to suburban transit. Currently the fastest way to commute from Stittsville (or much of Kanata), to the Kanata North Business Park is to take a Connexion bus east to Moodie and then transfer to route 64 (or maybe 66) and backtrack west to Kanata North. Its better now than before Moodie station opened (when the transfer was at Bayshore), but still not good.

After Stage 3, a transfer at Eagleson should be possible, though you might have to transfer to the Confederation Line to get there.

[OTSkyline]

Originally Posted by Acajack

If you look at the Paris region which has 13 million people the average to-and-from commute time isn't four or five hours per day. It's 1 hour and 25 minutes.

Paris also has a very extensive underground metro system, which we do not. So I don't think we can expect a proportionate commute.

Let's face it, unfortunately we won't have unlimited budget to expand our LRT forever. We can't expand the 417 to 10 lanes each direction to try to make it easy for commuters who live on the outskirts to reach the city centre asap.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

That depends on the origin, destination, and purpose of the trip. None of these phases solve the truly urban transportation problems, for which the city has tried nothing and is all out of ideas.

How true! LRT can never address the 'last mile' problem. This can only be accomplished with fast, frequent local service. Sorry, 15 minute frequency is not going to cut it. You can drive a long distance in 15 minutes.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

How true! LRT can never address the 'last mile' problem. This can only accomplished with fast, frequent local service. Sorry, 15 minute frequency is not going to cut it. You can drive a long distance in 15 minutes.

I agree. People pushing to have LRT within walking distance of their single family home is ridiculous.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I agree. People pushing to have LRT within walking distance of their single family home is ridiculous.

Who's doing that?

[eltodesukane]

Originally Posted by OTSkyline

Paris also has a very extensive underground metro system, which we do not.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OTSkyline

Paris also has a very extensive underground metro system, which we do not. So I don't think we can expect a proportionate commute.

Let's face it, unfortunately we won't have unlimited budget to expand our LRT forever. We can't expand the 417 to 10 lanes each direction to try to make it easy for commuters who live on the outskirts to reach the city centre asap.

I understand all of this but it still points to a failing of the transportation system or transportation planning.

You don't need to be a gold star student, but even by simply being "not dumb" a city the size of Ottawa should at a minimum have average commute times roughly similar to a city like Paris, and probably even a bit shorter.

Not saying it does or doesn't BTW. I have not checked the numbers. But just saying that "Ottawa's a big city now so it's going to take a long time to get around, c'est la vie" is admitting failure and making excuses.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Who's doing that?

Many suburban residents.

[danishh]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I don't think OTownandDown is trying to get to iris, but rather was highlighting the slowest section of the commute.



I would argue that Stage 3 to Kanata will be even more important for suburban to suburban transit. Currently the fastest way to commute from Stittsville (or much of Kanata), to the Kanata North Business Park is to take a Connexion bus east to Moodie and then transfer to route 64 (or maybe 66) and backtrack west to Kanata North. Its better now than before Moodie station opened (when the transfer was at Bayshore), but still not good.

After Stage 3, a transfer at Eagleson should be possible, though you might have to transfer to the Confederation Line to get there.

i generally take the point of view that travel within an individual exurb, while obviously not well served by transit, is sufficiently served by road capacity. The reason stage 3 to Barrhaven is important is that the south simply doesnt have the road capacity to get the entire population to its downtown workplaces efficiently, whereas orleans and kanata are better served by the 417.

I do think Stage 3 to Kanata is a pre-requisite for tolling the 417, so that's a plus.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by danishh

i generally take the point of view that travel within an individual exurb, while obviously not well served by transit, is sufficiently served by road capacity. The reason stage 3 to Barrhaven is important is that the south simply doesnt have the road capacity to get the entire population to its downtown workplaces efficiently, whereas orleans and kanata are better served by the 417.

I do think Stage 3 to Kanata is a pre-requisite for tolling the 417, so that's a plus.

Tolling is politically impossible to occur.

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Tolling is politically impossible to occur.

Now, I agree, but maybe not in 15-20 years.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Tolling is politically impossible to occur.

The 417 is a provincial highway and Toronto doesn't really care what people in Ottawa think.

[Acajack]

The 417 through Ottawa is not at all the type of highway that would normally be tolled in Ontario, or anywhere in North America really.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by roger1818

The 417 is a provincial highway and Toronto doesn't really care what people in Ottawa think.

Which means the province (or a corporation the province leases the highway to) collects the money. Can’t see where the advantage is for the city. How about just not widening it in the first place? Oh wait, the suburban voters will vote in a government that will.

[Aylmer]

I think that it's not as politically impossible as we make it out to be. It can be sold, even to suburban drivers. Think about it - if someone told you that, for 2 or 3 dollars at the height of rush hour, you could cut congestion *in half*, wouldn't you take it? What if it also meant you had smoother roads, more bus service, and/or lower taxes to offset anything you do pay?

That seems like a pretty sellable deal if anyone wanted to make it. Certainly a whole lot better than "I'll raise your taxes to add a lane to reduce travel times by 2% for 3-5 years."

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

I think that it's not as politically impossible as we make it out to be. It can be sold, even to suburban drivers. Think about it - if someone told you that, for 2 or 3 dollars at the height of rush hour, you could cut congestion *in half*, wouldn't you take it? What if it also meant you had smoother roads, more bus service, and/or lower taxes to offset anything you do pay?

That seems like a pretty sellable deal if anyone wanted to make it. Certainly a whole lot better than "I'll raise your taxes to add a lane to reduce travel times by 2% for 3-5 years."

If ever any type of tolling were implemented on the 417, I can only see perhaps one lane in each direction being an express toll lane.

Sort of like this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Califo..._Express_Lanes

[lrt's friend]

It will take an enormous change of policy to turn Highway 417 into a toll road and enormous change in infrastructure as well to collect tolls. Considering there is no alternate highway crossing Ottawa, how does this work? Highway 407 only worked because they installed infrastructure from day one and it supplemented existing Highway 401. There was an alternative. If we toll the highway, we will need to bolster public transit a great deal and the C-Line will likely not be enough. Not everybody is going downtown who is using Highway 417. This also amounts to a download of provincial costs to the city to move people formerly travelling on a provincial highway. The provincial government (or private corporation) collects the tolls but the city has to move more people by transit. Also, consider that Highway 417 is part of the Trans-Canada Highway. I just don't see this being practical any time in the foreseeable future.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

It will take an enormous change of policy to turn Highway 417 into a toll road and enormous change in infrastructure as well to collect tolls. Considering there is no alternate highway crossing Ottawa, how does this work? Highway 407 only worked because they installed infrastructure from day one and it supplemented existing Highway 401. There was an alternative. If we toll the highway, we will need to bolster public transit a great deal and the C-Line will likely not be enough. Not everybody is going downtown who is using Highway 417. This also amounts to a download of provincial costs to the city to move people formerly travelling on a provincial highway. The provincial government (or private corporation) collects the tolls but the city has to move more people by transit. Also, consider that Highway 417 is part of the Trans-Canada Highway. I just don't see this being practical any time in the foreseeable future.

Exactly.

If they built a ring road (expressway standard) to the south of Ottawa, then you might have some rationale for tolling one of the two.

[daud]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Exactly.

If they built a ring road (expressway standard) to the south of Ottawa, then you might have some rationale for tolling one of the two.

This is the only way I see any tolling ever happening in our region.

Highway 407B

[OTownandDown]

I can't really link the laughable route on the traffic planner, but lets just say under no circumstances will I be taking OC Transpo to work and back. Here's the morning, hour and a half proposed commute via public transit. As much as I love doing circular loops on a bus, that's just too many loops and not enough travelling to my destination.

No, public transit hasn't been useful for my particular commute in 10 years. 25kms for 1.5 hours, I can bike faster than that...

I DID take the bus once, and I was able to take a 95 all the way and walk at the beginning and end, and I think it was shorter than 1.5 hours.

Here's a rough example:

Friday, November 08, 2019
1h22 min
(Walking 16 min)
8:00Walk Origin
Farm Boy, Industrial Avenue, Ottawa, ON
Walk to stop CORONATION / RUSSELL (7147) (8 min).
8:08Bus46 Stop
CORONATION / RUSSELL - (7147)
Bus route 46 direction Hurdman (11 min).
8:19Walk Stop
HURDMAN B - (3023)
Walk to station HURDMAN O-TRAIN WEST / OUEST (3023) (2 min).
8:22Train1 Stop
HURDMAN O-TRAIN WEST / OUEST - (3023)
Train route 1 direction Tunney's Pasture (15 min).
8:37Walk Stop
TUNNEY'S PASTURE O-TRAIN - (3011)
Walk to station TUNNEY'S PASTURE B (3011) (2 min).
8:40Bus62 Stop
TUNNEY'S PASTURE B - (3011)
Bus route 62 direction Stittsville (38 min).
9:18Walk Stop
PALLADIUM / SILVER SEVEN - (0514)
Walk to destination (4 min).
9:22 Destination
Altitude Gym, Palladium Drive, Kanata, ON