Surrey Langley Skytrain - Expo Line Extension | Proposed

[Express691]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

It would be worse for other forms of rapid transit that rely on rail adhesion for propulsion and braking.

With skytrain, they have more flexibility with the slopes; they can just cut through and tunnel through any given land if a grade is too steep.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by Express691

With skytrain, they have more flexibility with the slopes; they can just cut through and tunnel through any given land if a grade is too steep.

Yeah, I imagine they'd do something like at Nanaimo, where west of the station the tracks are above the ground, and east they're along the ground.

[CurtisVerbatim]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

Yeah, I imagine they'd do something like at Nanaimo, where west of the station the tracks are above the ground, and east they're along the ground.

either that or make it a more gradual slope by bringing it further from the ground at the bottom and closer to the ground at the top

[officedweller]

The hills on Lougheed Highway made for a undulating Millennium Line - and some stations like Production Way, because of the slope and the need to span the roadway on the west side and the long level platform, ended up being fairly high up on the east side.


https://www.flickr.com/photos/bobkh/3121424974

[scryer]

An interesting little article about Edmonton's issues with their LRT:

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-co...ases-emissions

Obviously the article has some biases to it but all in all, I do think that the system that they are using is similar to the one that is being shoved down our throats for Surrey.

[Kisai]

Nothing new:
http://www.surreyleader.com/opinion/...364925301.html

Daryl and Malcom appear on the same page for once.

That said, all three of the letters are against Surrey's LRT.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Kisai

Nothing new:
http://www.surreyleader.com/opinion/...364925301.html

Daryl and Malcom appear on the same page for once.

That said, all three of the letters are against Surrey's LRT.

Hmm the top letter is using the youtube video I sent to Surrey (and posted on here) as an example of why this LRT plan is terrible. The more that video makes the rounds, the better.

Malcolm's letter is a little weird, as he still manages to bash Skytrain. Although I guess some people might think it's not him if he doesn't...

[BCPhil]

Malcom sure does use a lot of words without actually communicating anything.

So what if Skytrain is only used in 7 places. That's like saying because I listen to music by localy developed band We Are the City, that I am and Idiot because it is not in the top 40. Doesn't actually prove anything.

Then he goes on to talk about how wages are the biggest cost to a transit system, then goes on to say "SkyTrain does not see this kind of fiscal economy." He just uses fancy words in an insulting manner in place of rhetorical reasoning.

Even his argument AGAINST LRT in Surrey has no reasoning behind it except insults levied against politicians and bureaucrats.

[Metro-One]

He use to say "used nowhere else" at least now he acknowledges there are 7 other cities.

And sometimes what is used less often can actually be the superior system!

For example, there are fewer top brand luxury cars than there are economy class vehicles

Also, isn't Hawaii currently constructing skytrain as well? The only American city to be building a new grade separated true Metro-System.

[Sheba]

I was going to walk away from this, despite the humor Malcolm provides - but then he replied to someone...

In response to someone advocating for Skytrain over LRT:

Kris, why is no one building with SkyTrain anymore? Why SkyTrain is not allowed to compete against LRT for a transit line? Why is Bombardier going to discontinue production of SkyTrain within the year?

Your arguments have no merit and are based on nonsesne. Oh by the way, more people are killed annually on SkyTrain than on comparable light rail systems.

As SkyTrain costs up to 10 times more to build than LRT, what schools and hospitals are you going to close to fund SkyTrain expansion?

Only 7 skytrain systems built since the late 1970's compared with over 200 new LRT lines, tells the ral story, no one builds with SkyTrain anymore.

What's best for Surrey: LRT or SkyTrain?

[Metro-One]

Someone please write a good reply for that

Show the costs of Ottawa's new LRT, the new LRT line in Toronto, the most recent Calgary LRT lines, and of course, the 600 million dollar expansion on Edmonton's LRT, and compare them to the cost of the Evergreen Line per KM constructed... up to 10 times more expensive, hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

And where on earth does he get the idea that Skytrain kills more people... when has skytrain ever killed someone outside of a suicide???

Also, didn't Dubai just open the worlds longest elevated automated train system (essentially skytrain) and isn't Hawaii building skytrain now... o new systems my ass!

Seriously, what world does this guy live in.

I would life to respond to it myself but i need to go to work (yes, Saturday...Japan, hehe)

Someone please put a bunch of sourced facts and figures together.

And be sure to mention that those LRT systems are selected because they are also in Canada and they are likely the ones he will cite for ridership / performance (while citing the cheapest built one possible in the world for cost, he always does that trick).

[xd_1771]

I'm certain to be ignored/pushed aside if I comment on the post again, but train models don't get "discontinued" because there's no demand for particular models. Technically, there probably aren't even any "particular models".

This was pointed out by Michael Scabas, now with the Neptis foundation, who was one of the original ICTS developers with UTDC back in the '80s:

We question some of the assumptions in the Scarborough LRT BCA:

It is stated that as the ALRT Mark 1 vehicles “are no longer manufactured,” the line must be rebuilt to accommodate the larger Mark 2 vehicles. This is not correct. Transit cars are all “built to order,” and while there can be cost synergies in combining with another order, trains are not build on continuous assembly lines like cars or planes. Toronto’s replacement streetcars are a special design, to match the geometry of Toronto’s tracks. Certainly, TTC could procure replacement cars of the size and performance of the Mark 1 cars, if it wished to avoid the cost of rebuilding stations and curves. The cost per car would probably be higher, but total project cost might well be less. There is no evidence TTC or Metrolinx has considered this option, or enquired with Bombardier whether they would be prepared to build additional cars to the Mark 1 dimensions.

(From the Neptis Foundation's Review of Metrolinx's Big Move)

The only country I could think of with such a scale in its railway vehicle economy that manufacturers justify standardizing the designs is Japan. Maybe some European countries. But my point is there probably aren't even standardized designs at all.

The rolling stock brands you hear about (Alstom Metropolis, Bombardier MOVIA, etc.) are probably just existent for portfolio and marketing purposes. Even these product lines have to be modified extensively for each train order. As an example, Bombardier calls some of their London Underground vehicles "MOVIA" metro trains, and yet they look nothing like the MOVIA vehicles in service in other cities like - say - Singapore; if the Underground cars weren't designed from scratch, than the original "MOVIA" designs required extensive modification to work on London's systems. Even ART has had this sort of thing happen - JFK AirTrain, Everline and Beijing ordered wider cars than the Mark IIs we see here on SkyTrain.

I can't say I know exactly how this works myself, but it's pretty clear that DMJ isn't even partly working off of any real knowledge - he's making up everything he says online. He reminds me of another popular "Donald" character with a last name of "Trump" - neither ever seem to have any facts or information on-hand. Donald Malcolm Johnston is the Donald Trump of Metro Vancouver's transit issues.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

I'm certain to be ignored/pushed aside if I comment on the post again, but train models don't get "discontinued" because there's no demand for particular models. Technically, there probably aren't even any "particular models".

This was pointed out by Michael Scabas, now with the Neptis foundation, who was one of the original ICTS developers with UTDC back in the '80s:


The only country I could think of with such a scale in its railway vehicle economy that manufacturers justify standardizing the designs is Japan. Maybe some European countries. But my point is there probably aren't even standardized designs at all.

The rolling stock brands you hear about (Alstom Metropolis, Bombardier MOVIA, etc.) are probably just existent for portfolio and marketing purposes. Even these product lines have to be modified extensively for each train order. As an example, Bombardier calls some of their London Underground vehicles "MOVIA" metro trains, and yet they look nothing like the MOVIA vehicles in service in other cities like - say - Singapore; if the Underground cars weren't designed from scratch, than the original "MOVIA" designs required extensive modification to work on London's systems. Even ART has had this sort of thing happen - JFK AirTrain, Everline and Beijing ordered wider cars than the Mark IIs we see here on SkyTrain.

I can't say I know exactly how this works myself, but it's pretty clear that DMJ isn't even partly working off of any real knowledge - he's making up everything he says online. He reminds me of another popular "Donald" character with a last name of "Trump" - neither ever seem to have any facts or information on-hand. Donald Malcolm Johnston is the Donald Trump of Metro Vancouver's transit issues.

DMJ just spams the very exact same reply, every time, to everyone. I think his goal is to SEO spam those phrases "nobody builds" and "skytrain" or something. Jokes on him though. Skytrain is a (arguably genericized) Trademark for Elevated Rail, not a specific to Bombardier at all. Only Vancouver's Skytrain is called "Skytrain" AND Vancouver's system isn't identical to Bombardier's turn-key Innovia system.

Alstom markets something identical to the Innovia on conventional rotary motors, and I'm absolutely sure I read a Siemens marketing document on one of their Light Rail systems that was also identical.

The trouble is for people like DMJ, anything that isn't a Streetcar on the old Interurban is a "bad" thing. His ideas are taking Patrick Condon's idea of streetcars replacing buses and destroying mobility to the most expensive and least useful possible application.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Kisai

DMJ just spams the very exact same reply, every time, to everyone. I think his goal is to SEO spam those phrases "nobody builds" and "skytrain" or something. Jokes on him though.

...and the more he spams, the more people see him as the fool. Whenever an article that he's part of / comments on is posted here, I see people calling him out in the comments - and I doubt it's people here doing it every time. Another "Donald" he reminds me of is Donald Duck.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by Sheba

...and the more he spams, the more people see him as the fool. Whenever an article that he's part of / comments on is posted here, I see people calling him out in the comments - and I doubt it's people here doing it every time. Another "Donald" he reminds me of is Donald Duck.

Speaking of other threads, from twitter:
https://twitter.com/fraseropolis/sta...34767141507073

Another Nathan Pachal piece:
https://pricetags.wordpress.com/2016...-go-in-surrey/

BTW, BRT in Bogota Colombia, 41,000pphpd

TransMilenio carries very high passenger volumes of up to 41,000 pphpd. This is made possible
by a variety of system design features:
– high capacity articulated vehicles (160 passengers) with multiple doors
– high average bus occupancies (TransMilenio buses carry an average of 1,600 pax per day)
– exclusive runningways unaffected by traffic congestion, with double lanes allowing express buses to overtake local buses
– high capacity station design featuring level boarding and off-board fare payment
– centralized control of bus operations, which coordinate local and express services, reduce
bunching, and improve reliability
– high service frequency (280 buses per hour per direction on busy trunk sections, resulting in a combined headway 13 seconds at busy stations)

and 13 second headway. Next time someone chimes in about LRT being better than BRT, ask them what they think of TransMilenio's Subway class BRT.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Kisai

Next time someone chimes in about LRT being better than BRT, ask them what they think of TransMilenio's Subway class BRT.

Another example of why it's not the technology that matters, it's the grade separation.

[Bdawe]

Pachal's article is not actually a pro-LRT piece, it's merely a history of the issue.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by Bdawe

Pachal's article is not actually a pro-LRT piece, it's merely a history of the issue.

Which you wouldn't get from the subject of the article. The article doesn't really have anything to do with the subject in that it doesn't explain why LRT is right for Surrey. It's a nice history, but that's about it.

[BCPhil]

A new poll is in.

http://www.voiceonline.com/80-of-sur...rk-ipsos-poll/

AN Ipsos telephone poll conducted on behalf of the City of Surrey, shows high levels of public support for plans to bring LRT into service in Surrey. Eight-in-ten residents (80%) say they strongly support or somewhat support LRT. Fewer than two-in ten residents (17%) are strongly opposed or somewhat opposed to LRT. Three percent are undecided.

First thing, of course 80% are going to like something over nothing. It doesn't really indicate any preference for LRT over Skytrain, or even BRT.

Second, I find it shocking that only 58% of people have heard of the LRT plans, considering how much they've been in the media during the civic election and during the transit plebiscite.

Which brings me to question just how familiar people are with the concept of LRT to begin with. Can you really rely on their "top of mind benefits"? How can you say "increased convenience / efficiency" and "reduced traffic congestion" would actually happen if you don't know what the plan is.

And the other thing is, they are also benefits that Skytrain brings. And the biggest concern is still funding (41%). And 12% are worried about negative traffic impacts and 8% concerned about the construction timeline.

Yes, LRT would bring benefits, but I wonder how many people would actually chose one plan over the other if given the choice.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

A new poll is in.

http://www.voiceonline.com/80-of-sur...rk-ipsos-poll/

First thing, of course 80% are going to like something over nothing. It doesn't really indicate any preference for LRT over Skytrain, or even BRT.

Second, I find it shocking that only 58% of people have heard of the LRT plans, considering how much they've been in the media during the civic election and during the transit plebiscite.

Which brings me to question just how familiar people are with the concept of LRT to begin with. Can you really rely on their "top of mind benefits"? How can you say "increased convenience / efficiency" and "reduced traffic congestion" would actually happen if you don't know what the plan is.

And the other thing is, they are also benefits that Skytrain brings. And the biggest concern is still funding (41%). And 12% are worried about negative traffic impacts and 8% concerned about the construction timeline.

Yes, LRT would bring benefits, but I wonder how many people would actually chose one plan over the other if given the choice.

That poll is just as dishonest as Surrey's "business case" they presented that spoke entirely of job creation and nothing else.

I had looked up how much it would cost to send a mailer to every Surrey resident and CPC's quote was around the 30,000$ range. Meanwhile a phone or online poll is exceptionally cheap by comparison. One person can call 600 people in a week.