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  #1  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2007, 7:58 PM
worldlyhaligonian worldlyhaligonian is offline
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Fast Ferry

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  #2  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2007, 8:00 PM
worldlyhaligonian worldlyhaligonian is offline
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Link: http://www.halifax.ca/metrotransit/FastFerry.html

Halifax/Bedford Fast Ferry Project Update
Monday, February 26, 2007


HRM has recently completed the Halifax/Bedford Fast Ferry Cultivation Study. The study included a market analysis, economic analysis, wake-wash assessment, and stakeholder consultations. The study recommends the design and construction of two high-speed vessels to operate the service.

Halifax Regional Council has approved the project in principle subject to funding.

Staff is continuing with the project and are presently carrying out consultations with other harbour stakeholders to lay out operating criteria.




Fast Ferry Preview - Friday, October 28th 2005
On Friday, October 29th and Saturday, October 30th 2005, HRM chartered the vessel, Whaling City Express, for sea trials and data collection as part of the investigation into the feasibility of fast ferry service between Bedford and downtown Halifax. This catamaran ferry is based in New Bedford MA and is similar to the vessel being considered for operation in Halifax Harbour.

A comprehensive Ferry Cultivation Study is expected to be completed in December 2005 and will be recommended to Regional Council for further consideration and action.

As part of the sea trial component of the study now underway, HRM invited the public on board the fast ferry on Saturday, October 29th. A total of 150 passengers were accommodated per trip on a first come, first serve basis. A round trip was made between Bedford and Halifax, but did not stop in Halifax. The fast ferry trip is approximately 20 minutes each way.

Download the HRM Regional Plan on Transportation (PDF)
Stay tuned for more information as it becomes available!



It really shouldn't be taking this long to figure out whether or not this is feasible.
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  #3  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2007, 8:11 PM
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Everything involving the city or province takes longer than it should, although in many cases there are complicating factors that aren't really described in these articles.

From a demand point of view, the ferries are a no brainer. The issues are reliability and the wake generated by the vessels, plus of course the city has to pay for them and they have to come from somewhere. I guess they would dock at Convoy Quay in Bedford and maybe Purdy's Wharf in Halifax?
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  #4  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2007, 10:33 PM
hfx_chris hfx_chris is offline
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For downtown it would make sense to incorporate it into the existing terminal area, possibly a redevelopment of that little park behind the law courts.

As far as the ferries being a no brainer... I think light rail is a no brainer, but we see where that's going


Oh by the way, what a great photo, really shows the ass ugly polka-dot patchwork of a paint job on the MacKay Bridge...
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  #5  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2007, 10:53 PM
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Light Rail will never work in this city, we don't have enough space, density, or population. I was at a lecture by dave mccusker, hrms transportation planner. And he brought up some good point about light rail. because the tracks are owned by cn and the nature of the area they pass through, most of the time they aren't allowed to go at any sort of speed. thus making the trip in from bedford no more faster then it would be by car or bus. Also, because of the nature of the tracks they have to use heavy rail cars instead of light rail, so they couldnt switch onto a embedded rail system. And one last point, the train station is on the opposite end of the downtown then most of the offices that people would be commuting too anyway. I'm pretty sure mccusker said that the fast ferry would be faster than the light rail because of circumstances.
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  #6  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2007, 11:40 PM
hfx_chris hfx_chris is offline
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I don't understand Dave McCusker, he's so anti-light rail it hurts me.

It's very doable in Halifax. CN may own the lines, but it would be easy enough to share them. Or rather it might have been before HRM allowed CN to pull up the second rail line through the cut in the west end. The argument about not being able to use light rail trains is BS. Ottawa's O-Train, travels on the same rail lines the freight trains used to take, and in fact they were sharing the line for a number of years before CN decided they didn't need them anymore and the city of Ottawa bought them.
Yes the train station is at the south end, but that's the Via rail station. Build Halifax's light rail station in the downtown core. If they ever destroy that Cogswell interchange, that would be a perfect spot for a light rail and bus terminal, with connections to the pedway system.
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  #7  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2007, 11:44 PM
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I wouldn't expect anything less from McCusker.... he is a burned-out bureaucrat who is totally at a loss for ideas other than traffic chicanes and speed bumps.

Consider this: the Cogswell interchange is going away sometime soon. Make that a site for a downtown rail terminus. The line then goes north thru the Dockyard (plenty of room there) along the old rail cut that parallels Barrington and towards Ceres at the Basin. That would be a new purpose built rail line since there are none suitable there now. When you get to the Basin you either adapt an existing line or build a new one parallel to those. No need to share with CN, they are only using single-track there beyond the marshalling yard now anyway as I understand it. You could have a station at the end of Hammonds Plains Rd. If you built a dedicated spur line you could have the main terminus on the site of the old rifle range. Problem solved.
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  #8  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2007, 3:43 AM
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Yes, I think that an integrated transit terminal linking to a rail line around the Cogswell site would be great.

When did light rail become limited to *only* running cars along the existing CN-owned rail cut route? All kinds of options are available. I don't disagree that that alternative has serious problems, but the fact that one might not work does not invalidate a whole array of potential transit possibilities.

To me it seems really worrisome that our politicians and city staff spend so much of their time arguing against ideas and present so few creative solutions.
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  #9  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2007, 1:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
When did light rail become limited to *only* running cars along the existing CN-owned rail cut route? All kinds of options are available. I don't disagree that that alternative has serious problems, but the fact that one might not work does not invalidate a whole array of potential transit possibilities.
Oh certainly there are other options, but using existing infrastructure just makes the most sense. It's basically the longest uninterrupted stretch into downtown; no traffic lights, no intersections, etc.
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  #10  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2007, 3:18 PM
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I still argue against light rail. You need good density along the line to get good ridership in order to make any project feasible. Those conditions do not exist in HRM right now and I don't see them being available within the next 25 years either. We just don't have the population to support it. What other cities around the world have light rail with a population under 500,000?
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  #11  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2007, 4:03 PM
hfx_chris hfx_chris is offline
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Trenton, NJ (83,923)
Salt Lake City, Utah (178,858)
Tacoma, Washington (201,700)
Jersey City, NJ (241,791)
Buffalo, NY (279,745)
Newark, NJ (281,402)
Pittsburgh, PA (312,819)
St. Louis, MO (353,837)
Minneapolis, MN (387,970)
Sacramento, CA (467,343)
Cleveland, Ohio (478,403)

Close:
Portland, Oregon (562,690)
Denver, Colorado (566,974)
Boston, MA (590,763)

And that's just the United States. If you want I can go through Europe and Asia as well.


And yes I realize HRM is a lot larger geographically than a lot of the examples I've given above, and that a lot of the ones given above are populations for the city proper.. but it still gives a good idea that light rail can work in a lot of places of similar sizes to Halifax.
Oh, and all of the cities I've listed above have light rapid transit systems, not trollycoaches or streetcars.
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  #12  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2007, 4:04 PM
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As far as density along the line, you do not need that, you just need density in certain areas along the line, with one station in each area - a station in the Timberlea/Beechville area, one in Beaver Bank, one in Fall River/Windsor Junction area.
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  #13  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2007, 4:18 PM
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Some of those aren't really small cities, but there are some rail lines in truly small NA cities like Kenosha, WI, and all kinds of rail systems in comparable European cities. Furthermore, many of those systems listed serve areas less densely populated than the parts of Halifax that the Bedford Hwy line passes through.

That being said, why can't Halifax be the first city of a certain size to build something like light rail? Obviously it has to be carefully considered first but I've never gotten the feeling that the idea has been given a fair shake.
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  #14  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2007, 5:01 PM
terrynorthend terrynorthend is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hfx_chris View Post
Trenton, NJ (83,923)
Salt Lake City, Utah (178,858)
Tacoma, Washington (201,700)
Jersey City, NJ (241,791)
Buffalo, NY (279,745)
Newark, NJ (281,402)
Pittsburgh, PA (312,819)
St. Louis, MO (353,837)
Minneapolis, MN (387,970)
Sacramento, CA (467,343)
Cleveland, Ohio (478,403)

Close:
Portland, Oregon (562,690)
Denver, Colorado (566,974)
Boston, MA (590,763)
These population numbers are municipal proper. All those cities have much larger metropolitan populations.
for example..

Salt Lake City, UT (1,018,826)
Pittsburgh, PA (2,370,776)
Boston, MA (4,455,217)

That's why Salt Lake City was able to host the Olympics and Pittsburgh and Boston can support multiple major league sports teams, and precisely the reason they need commuter rail.
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  #15  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2007, 5:29 PM
hfx_chris hfx_chris is offline
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Originally Posted by terrynorthend View Post
These population numbers are municipal proper. All those cities have much larger metropolitan populations.
I said that didn't I?
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  #16  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2007, 5:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hfx_chris View Post
I said that didn't I?
Yes you did, but the Metro area is so much larger from the municipal proper, that the point you were trying to make is moot really. Some of the cities you listed are 10x the size of HRM in population. Their rail systems don't just service the urban core.

Regardless, I don't see a rail system in Halifax as that far-fetched.
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  #17  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2007, 5:38 PM
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And also if you want to look at Europe you have to take into account that population density overall, within whatever country is much greater. You have entire towns along railways that now serve as commuter neighbourhoods for larger metro areas like london. Nova Scotia doesn't even come close to being able to supporting something like the network you see in England, or the netherlands.
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  #18  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2007, 8:20 PM
hfx_chris hfx_chris is offline
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That's why nobody here is saying we- oh forget it. Obviously you're anti-rail for some reason.
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  #19  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2007, 8:58 PM
worldlyhaligonian worldlyhaligonian is offline
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Originally Posted by Jonovision View Post
And also if you want to look at Europe you have to take into account that population density overall, within whatever country is much greater. You have entire towns along railways that now serve as commuter neighbourhoods for larger metro areas like london. Nova Scotia doesn't even come close to being able to supporting something like the network you see in England, or the netherlands.
I agree in terms of total network, but the city metro here in Amsterdam is exactly how it should work for halifax. I'm not talking about "commuter rail" (as those link all cities in the netherlands) per-se, just a metro that would access dartmouth at one end, bedford at the other, and would therefore be able to service the peninsula and the mainland with like 2 lines and connections. Here in Amsterdam, its almost completely above ground... which is required in Halifax due to our geological formations. Its also a newer metro, with clean stations. The population density isn't crazy here, as there are very few buildings over 3 stories. I think Amsterdam is a perfect case study for halifax.

I don't think that using the existing rail network in halifax is feasible, but the path it follows could easily be incorporated for a peninsula route. I'm talking like a station at westend mall area, quinpool, south end, downtown.

I would like to see a metro and a high speed ferry, they are two different options that would serve different groups. A metro reaching as far as bedford would be good for everyday people traffic whereas the ferry would be more for the workers commuting specifically to downtown.

Overall, Halifax has terrible public transportation and something needs to be done. I feel as though when I don't have access to a car that I can't get anywhere, especially when considering developments like DC or Bayer's Lake. I love cars, but we have to take a realistic approach to transportation and stop being such a rural feeling city.
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  #20  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2007, 9:00 PM
worldlyhaligonian worldlyhaligonian is offline
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Also, I can walk most of the length of some of the subway lines here in about 1.5 or 2 hours. The distances are shorter than any metro I have ever encountered.
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