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  #21  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2007, 9:41 PM
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It is a really complicated issue and the specifics vary between cities so it's hard to make exact comparisons, but obviously Halifax's system would have far fewer kms or track and a smaller number of trains. Initially it could be a commuter rail type system with only a few trips per day but that could be expanded to the point where the system were more like, say, subways in terms of frequency.

The small city argument has some weight but then again the HRM's per capita investment in transit is pathetic any way you look at it. The HRM has a larger tax base than many US cities with rail systems, and the ability to coordinate major projects like rail transit was one of the justifications for creating the HRM in the first place. If all council is going to do is discuss cat bylaws then amalgamation was pointless. They could do that in Bedford town hall meetings.

The closest thing I can think of as an apples-to-apples comparison between cities is to look at per capita transit investment. If we want to look at Amsterdam, they have built a 52 station underground system with billions of dollars. People here act as if spending $10M on transit is huge, and yet equivalent spending in Halifax to Amsterdam investment would easily be in the hundreds of millions of dollars.

Closer to home, the Sheppard subway line in Toronto cost just under $1B. Toronto is about 13 times larger than Halifax. When is the last time the transit system here saw 1/13 of a billion, or 77 million dollars in capital investment? The answer to that is never, although maybe the city came close in the 1950s or 1800s.
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  #22  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2007, 1:44 PM
worldlyhaligonian worldlyhaligonian is offline
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52 station underground system?


I'm only counting 48?

As well, this 48 number is really skewed. Many stations are would be considered so close in Halifax terms that I would estimate 50% of these stations wouldn't be needed. I don't know if its because people are lazy here or the metro is so slow, however it doesn't make sense to me. Some stops are literally 3 minute walks from eachother, some are much father apart and therefore relevant to a Halifax comparison. Many bus stops I have to walk to when I'm living in Halifax in the peninsular west end (such as the 52), take me longer to walk to then whole distances between metro stops. Stations are some of the most expensive part of building the network.

Also, there are many more lines than I am proposing, with one of them going to virtually out of Amsterdam itself. I really think following the Toronto model of having like 2-3 lines works best and would signifcantly reduce expenditure, especially the way trains can access the peninsula through the south end. And east-west line maybe as north as Almon would compliment that well.

With regards to the amount spent on the Sheppard Line, its alot longer a distance than I thought it would be when I took it a couple times in the summer. Its a beautiful subway line compared to the most of the old stations on the Bloor-Danforth Line. And the kicker in terms of cost here... the Sheppard Line is underground. A long undeground with several brand new indoor stations is astronomical in cost.

I think that if almost all of the transit was above ground, save maybe key urban areas, with minimalist stations that have connections to buses... this concept is not that infeasible and would definitely help people wanting to come into the city from afar, with outreaching bus lines. Would definitely change the role of Halifax, Dartmouth, and Bedford specifically as a part of the greater HRM.

Does the HRM not own alot of land that they can use with regards to the major parts of this project or to help leverage it? (Imagine the selling of the Cogswell lands leveraged new transportation infrastructure) I don't know, maybe I'm a dreamer, but I think the city council is made up of verrrryyy "downhome" local type people who have their heads in the sand and just produce mountains of studies and worry about cat bylaws. I know one thing, I'm happy I'm living abroad because its difficult to get perspective in Halifax.
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  #23  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2007, 4:49 PM
Halifax Hillbilly Halifax Hillbilly is offline
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I agree in terms of total network, but the city metro here in Amsterdam is exactly how it should work for halifax. I'm not talking about "commuter rail" (as those link all cities in the netherlands) per-se, just a metro that would access dartmouth at one end, bedford at the other, and would therefore be able to service the peninsula and the mainland with like 2 lines and connections. Here in Amsterdam, its almost completely above ground... which is required in Halifax due to our geological formations. Its also a newer metro, with clean stations. The population density isn't crazy here, as there are very few buildings over 3 stories. I think Amsterdam is a perfect case study for halifax.
Amsterdam is VERY much denser than Halifax even though it isn't a tall city. Not a good comparison in my mind.

Density does not equal height and vice versa.
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  #24  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2007, 5:50 PM
worldlyhaligonian worldlyhaligonian is offline
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True, as space is one of the biggest concerns of the Dutch. The entire city isn't significantly dense: there are massive parks such as Vondelpark and Rembrant park and the density drops significantly a short distance out of the center. Also, in the city center there is no height as mentioned, so even though there is a dwelling virtually everywhere that isn't a canal, its all limited.

Regardless, I'm not talking about Halifax specifically right now, but I'm not talking about some far fetched growth for the city either. I think as things develop this is a logical step to transportation, and I think the current state of Amsterdam reflects some points of Halifax's make-up. Metro's also have the habit of increasing growth specifically around stations, which I really witnessed in Toronto over the summer. (Even in the shady neighborhoods, lol.)
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  #25  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2007, 12:40 AM
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Not sure if Toronto would be an appropriate comparison for Halifax, I was thinking something a bit more simpler like Ottawa's O-Train, which only has 1 line and 5 stops. Halifax's stops would be spaced a lot farther apart than Ottawa, Toronto or Amsterdams systems.

And just so you all know what page I'm on, I'm not proposing a subway, or a commuter rail system. I'm in favor of LRT, light rail transit. A perfect example of the size and type of train:

Dallas, TX "DART" LRT train


Some examples of stations:

Ottawa's O-Train Carleton University station

A few shots of Calgary's C-Train stations:
Sidewalk station, would be required in downtown Halifax

Actual station platform, could be used in areas like West End Mall or Mount Saint Vincent
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  #26  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2007, 3:37 AM
Halifax Hillbilly Halifax Hillbilly is offline
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Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian View Post
Regardless, I'm not talking about Halifax specifically right now, but I'm not talking about some far fetched growth for the city either. I think as things develop this is a logical step to transportation, and I think the current state of Amsterdam reflects some points of Halifax's make-up. Metro's also have the habit of increasing growth specifically around stations, which I really witnessed in Toronto over the summer. (Even in the shady neighborhoods, lol.)
I'd love to tap the development potential of light rail in Halifax. If that was the goal than the speed of the system might not be the most important feature, nor would it necessarily reach far into the suburbs. To tap development potential I would run a line along Robie Street, with connections to downtown, Spring Garden, and hospitals/universities. Run it right up Robie, on street but in seperate lanes where possible, than off the peninsula. It's not necessarily the most important route from a transportation point of view but Robie has such huge brownfield opportunities that I'd use LRT to direct growth into that corridor.
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  #27  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2007, 4:24 AM
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worldlyhaligonian aren't you forgetting that Amsterdam also has the densest tram network in the world next to the metro and we aren't even taking into account the busses and the national rail (9 stations in Amsterdam).
I don't see how Amsterdam could be a case study for Halifax.

Also, central Amsterdam is denser than all but two or three similar sized areas in North America (one of which would be Manhattan).

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  #28  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2007, 4:45 AM
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fast ferry? we have unused fast ferries here in BC, we'd gladly sell them to you guys.

they are currently in mint condition, shrink wrapped in plastic in Vancouver harbour.
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  #29  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2007, 4:50 AM
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Oh this thread was about fast ferries?
Amsterdam has those too.

Rail or ferry transit could be posible in Halifax, but I don't think you should look at most European cities as case studies as the build environment is totally different.
Maybe there are some cities up north which would compare? Bergen, Norway?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergen#Transportation
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  #30  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2007, 5:38 AM
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Halifax already has two ferry routes. The third would go out to Bedford and a fourth would be Purcell's Cove. Mostly the reason for the delay comes down to the city wanting other levels of government to fund the project, not concerns over feasibility/ridership.

Whether or not Halifax is comparable to Amsterdam is irrelevant. The bottom line is that the city is underserved by transit. There are 20-30,000 people working downtown, 10-15,000 at the naval dockyard/shipyard/etc, and probably 10-15,000 more at the universities and hospitals. It's hard to imagine demand being insufficient for this kind of situation, and only 4-5 km of rail would be required to link these up within the core. A suburban line would be maybe another 8 km.
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  #31  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2007, 5:16 PM
Halifax Hillbilly Halifax Hillbilly is offline
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Halifax already has two ferry routes. The third would go out to Bedford and a fourth would be Purcell's Cove. Mostly the reason for the delay comes down to the city wanting other levels of government to fund the project, not concerns over feasibility/ridership.

Whether or not Halifax is comparable to Amsterdam is irrelevant. The bottom line is that the city is underserved by transit. There are 20-30,000 people working downtown, 10-15,000 at the naval dockyard/shipyard/etc, and probably 10-15,000 more at the universities and hospitals. It's hard to imagine demand being insufficient for this kind of situation, and only 4-5 km of rail would be required to link these up within the core. A suburban line would be maybe another 8 km.
So 12 km of light rail at $20 million per km = $240 million. And you only have one suburban line. It's probably nearly impossible to get grade separation to increase speed so the trip-time advantage over BRT would be very mininmal. I'm not really sure what you gain by introducing LRT in Halifax in the near future. Long term I think we are best served by developing BRT corridors for much less and keeping the possibility of LRT open by reserving right of ways where possible and structuring streets to accept them where needed.

We're unbelievably underserved by transit but that doesn't mean light rail is the solution.
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  #32  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2007, 6:25 PM
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Has anyone looked into the plans of Bergen, Norway?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bybanen
http://www.bybanen.no/english.html

Perhaps this should be a case study for Halifax.
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  #33  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2007, 8:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Halifax Hillbilly View Post
So 12 km of light rail at $20 million per km = $240 million. And you only have one suburban line. It's probably nearly impossible to get grade separation to increase speed so the trip-time advantage over BRT would be very mininmal. I'm not really sure what you gain by introducing LRT in Halifax in the near future. Long term I think we are best served by developing BRT corridors for much less and keeping the possibility of LRT open by reserving right of ways where possible and structuring streets to accept them where needed.

We're unbelievably underserved by transit but that doesn't mean light rail is the solution.
I think your cost estimates are a little off. Many US systems have incurred costs of less than $20M per *mile*, or about $12.5M per kilometre. Most of those systems have dedicated right of ways. Systems with higher costs normally involved some kind of tunneling, which would not be a part of a light rail system in Halifax.

As for the $240M figure, why is that so unattainable anyway? HRM is spending $300M or more just to build sewage plants that arguably provide less real benefit to the city. There was just a debate about bringing the CWGs here, and the province and city didn't seem to have major problems with providing up to about $750M in funding. It was only when it ballooned past a billion that they decided to call it quits.
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  #34  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2007, 10:20 PM
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That $20M per mile figure sounds more like an appropriate cost for setting up an LRT system starting from scratch, or as someone123 said tunneling. We've got an existing rail system that goes all the way from Windsor Junction (and beyond) straight into our downtown core, passing next to or very close to 3 universities and a shopping mall. It would need some work as far as altering speed limits to make it more competitive with buses, and working out some form of sharing agreement with CN (unless the put back the rail they ripped up a few years back). The major expenses I see (aside from the trains themselves) is in building stations (but even then they don't have to be anything too elaborate) and the downtown leg which would require changes to traffic patterns and laying of rail in the streets.
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  #35  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2007, 6:51 PM
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Much of Toronto's proposed LRT system is on street and is still going to be in the 30 million/km range.

If you want to go diesel on existing rail (like the O-train) you could probably get by in the 5 million/km range. I don't think the existing track in Halifax is a good corridor for transit however. It's too peripheral.
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  #36  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2007, 6:53 PM
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As for the $240M figure, why is that so unattainable anyway? HRM is spending $300M or more just to build sewage plants that arguably provide less real benefit to the city. There was just a debate about bringing the CWGs here, and the province and city didn't seem to have major problems with providing up to about $750M in funding. It was only when it ballooned past a billion that they decided to call it quits.
It's not an unbelievablve figure to spend on transit. I would gladly spend a quarter billion. I think you get much more bang for your buck in Halifax with a BRT system.
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  #37  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2007, 7:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Halifax Hillbilly View Post
It's not an unbelievablve figure to spend on transit. I would gladly spend a quarter billion. I think you get much more bang for your buck in Halifax with a BRT system.
Our road network is too overloaded, obsolete and dysfunctional for any bus-based system to be worthwhile. If the authorities won't spend money on roads, maybe they can be convinced to spend it on LRT.
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  #38  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2007, 9:39 PM
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Most people say the big problem is finding the dedicated ROW for transit, and I don't see how BRT helps there. If anything, it's worse since buses require a lot more space.

The only benefit would be that lines could run directly from neighbourhoods through the bus lanes to other areas but transfers to rail are a minor complication and right now the complexity and inefficiency of current bus routes is a major drawback.
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  #39  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2007, 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Halifax Hillbilly View Post
If you want to go diesel on existing rail (like the O-train) you could probably get by in the 5 million/km range. I don't think the existing track in Halifax is a good corridor for transit however. It's too peripheral.
It's almost a guarantee that any system Halifax might put in place would be diesel, and not electric. Still, nothing wrong with diesel.
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  #40  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2007, 12:55 PM
Halifax Hillbilly Halifax Hillbilly is offline
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I think LRT refers to so many different systems that maybe we're discussing different things sometimes.

What could Halifax have:

Tramway - tramcars running on streets with car traffic. We could definetly have that but it's not going to be any faster than buses. You'd get more capacity and more comfort.

Streetcars with own ROW - you'd gain some speed but again you have to find the right of way. I think Robie or Quinpool would be definite possibilites to find a lane of traffic, or Bayer's Road. Either way you need to take lanes of traffic away from cars. That's a tough sell. So you have the same problem that BRT has, plus you've added a lot of additional cost.

Dedicated LRT ROW - this is the best transit option, whether diesel or electric. The only existing rail is the railcut, and personally I don't think that's a good route. Where else could you put a track in this city? I don't think the corridors are there.

The best option for Halifax is some sort of mix of those ideas. On street downtown, own lanes where possible, possibly some grade seperated right of way to increase the speed.
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