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  #581  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2017, 3:19 AM
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On a personal note I am thrilled to see the Bikeways Connector project be approved! Though I don't use the bridge bikeway much anymore I can see me using it a lot more in the future once this system gets built.
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  #582  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2017, 11:59 AM
IanWatson IanWatson is offline
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I road across the bridge bikeway for the first time on Friday night (Dartmouth to Gottingen and back). A few thoughts, in sequence of my ride:

1) The Windmill approach is terrible. There is no reasonable way for a cyclist to get to the bikeway from the street. Luckily the bridge was closed to car traffic, so I had more flexibility to be a little creative.

2) It was very cool to be able to watch from the bikeway as the workers installed the expansion joint.

3) Having to go down to Barrington didn't bother me tooooo much.

4) Getting off the bikeway at Barrington is also a huge mess. All of a sudden you're just dumped onto a sidewalk (illegal?) and there's no legal way to get back on the street to ride up North that doesn't involve going way out of your way and taking a bunch of crosswalks. I ended up just breaking the law (Keith, you may now dismiss this post as the rantings of the usual law-breaking cyclist).

5) On the way back, the fact that I had to go down to Barrington from Gottingen to get back up to the bridge REALLY bothered me. It was the end of the night, I was tired, and I was a little less enthusiastic about everything. I very much understood why people are turned off by the unnecessary hill.

6) Biking at night is awesome.

Is the flyover expensive? Yes, though not really in the grand scheme of any type of transportation infrastructure. Is it worth it? I'd say so. The bridge is a crucial cycling link, especially when the ferry isn't running. The hill isn't impossible, but it's a big roadblock for casual cyclists (you know, the kind that aren't clad in lycra). The flyover is a clear sign that this city is getting serious about cycling, and that's a good thing.
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  #583  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2017, 2:18 PM
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Keith P. Keith P. is offline
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Originally Posted by IanWatson View Post
I road across the bridge bikeway for the first time on Friday night (Dartmouth to Gottingen and back). A few thoughts, in sequence of my ride:

1) The Windmill approach is terrible. There is no reasonable way for a cyclist to get to the bikeway from the street. Luckily the bridge was closed to car traffic, so I had more flexibility to be a little creative.

2) It was very cool to be able to watch from the bikeway as the workers installed the expansion joint.

3) Having to go down to Barrington didn't bother me tooooo much.

4) Getting off the bikeway at Barrington is also a huge mess. All of a sudden you're just dumped onto a sidewalk (illegal?) and there's no legal way to get back on the street to ride up North that doesn't involve going way out of your way and taking a bunch of crosswalks. I ended up just breaking the law (Keith, you may now dismiss this post as the rantings of the usual law-breaking cyclist).

5) On the way back, the fact that I had to go down to Barrington from Gottingen to get back up to the bridge REALLY bothered me. It was the end of the night, I was tired, and I was a little less enthusiastic about everything. I very much understood why people are turned off by the unnecessary hill.

6) Biking at night is awesome.

Is the flyover expensive? Yes, though not really in the grand scheme of any type of transportation infrastructure. Is it worth it? I'd say so. The bridge is a crucial cycling link, especially when the ferry isn't running. The hill isn't impossible, but it's a big roadblock for casual cyclists (you know, the kind that aren't clad in lycra). The flyover is a clear sign that this city is getting serious about cycling, and that's a good thing.

You might be surprised to find that I agree with you about the existing setup there. No way should that have been built the way it is with the entry/exit at Barrington and the lack of any practical way to exit into the roadway. It was a disaster from day one.

But none of that makes a $10 million ramp justifiable in any way. Fixing the setup at the Halifax end of the bridge would be easy with a controlled signal there. There are not enough cyclists to disrupt traffic any more than the existing pedestrian crossing would, which could be synched with the signal for cyclists. Easy fix, we save many millions, and much more useful things could be built with that money.

No, this is a massive gift to the HCC, who seem to have obtained significant leverage with City Hall for mysterious reasons.
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  #584  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2017, 2:27 PM
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You might be surprised to find that I agree with you about the existing setup there. No way should that have been built the way it is with the entry/exit at Barrington and the lack of any practical way to exit into the roadway. It was a disaster from day one.

But none of that makes a $10 million ramp justifiable in any way. Fixing the setup at the Halifax end of the bridge would be easy with a controlled signal there. There are not enough cyclists to disrupt traffic any more than the existing pedestrian crossing would, which could be synched with the signal for cyclists. Easy fix, we save many millions, and much more useful things could be built with that money.

No, this is a massive gift to the HCC, who seem to have obtained significant leverage with City Hall for mysterious reasons.
The mysterious reason is that cycing is good. It is good for the people riding as it promotes a healthy lifestyle. It is good for transit as it lessens the load on the buses. And, it is good on the automobile traffic as one more cyclist equals one less car sitting in traffic.

How would you fix the mess that is present at the Halifax side of the bridge? How much do you think that would cost?
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  #585  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2017, 4:13 PM
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How would you fix the mess that is present at the Halifax side of the bridge? How much do you think that would cost?
I already told you that in my initial comment.
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  #586  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2017, 5:47 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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I just stumbled upon this video about winter cycling in Halifax that was actually done a couple of years ago. It is somewhat timely as we are overdue for our first moderate to major snowstorm of the year - I'm feeling that we should be getting one soon...

IMHO, the video seems to portray the situation fairly, but I would be interested to see how some of the more dedicated cyclists feel about it.

Personally, I'd love to see the city do a better job of clearing sidewalks and bike lanes, yet each year you hear the same dialogue mid-winter about running out of snow-clearing budget for the somewhat inadequate job that is typically done already.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Em9FslOvuiQ
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  #587  
Old Posted Dec 14, 2017, 6:57 PM
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The first 20 seconds is all you need to watch.

The entire question is really not much different than one asking why we do not do more to allow snowmobiles to be used all summer long. A bicycle is about as poorly-suited to winter conditions as any machine you could devise.
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  #588  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2017, 1:54 AM
Colin May Colin May is offline
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Originally Posted by Keith P. View Post
The first 20 seconds is all you need to watch.

The entire question is really not much different than one asking why we do not do more to allow snowmobiles to be used all summer long. A bicycle is about as poorly-suited to winter conditions as any machine you could devise.
Yes the city should spend a large amount of money to clear the roads for a small number of cyclists. I note the lack of comment on the snow covered sidewalks in the video. Money really does grow on trees...in Halifax.
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  #589  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2017, 8:50 PM
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I believe it's less about spending large amounts of money for the minority of cyclists that choose to do so in the winter time, but making it more appealing for those that would like to do so but feel that they can't because of the snow. I firmly believe the city shouldn’t be spending exuberant amounts of money on something a minimal number of people do in the wintertime. But, if they focussed on key routes, keeping cost down, there may be an increase in cycling traffic and once it has proven worthy of the investment then moving forward with expanding snow clearing on other cycling routes. That way encouraging more people to cycle and reducing car traffic in the wintertime which everyone knows in wintertime can be horrible.

Edit: The hypothetical argument that snowmobiles should be used in the summer time isn't parallel to cycling in the winter. The reason cycling isn't meant for wintertime in Halifax is because the infrastructure that is already present is not maintained for wintertime. Whereas, snowmobiling can't be done in summertime because there isn't any snow. There are still roads in the winter time.

I do think the city's mismanagment of sidewalk clearing in the wintertime is also something that the city needs to invest in a lot more, but the video wasn't focussing on that issue.
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  #590  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2017, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by englishmanabroad View Post
I believe it's less about spending large amounts of money for the minority of cyclists that choose to do so in the winter time, but making it more appealing for those that would like to do so but feel that they can't because of the snow. I firmly believe the city shouldn’t be spending exuberant amounts of money on something a minimal number of people do in the wintertime. But, if they focussed on key routes, keeping cost down, there may be an increase in cycling traffic and once it has proven worthy of the investment then moving forward with expanding snow clearing on other cycling routes. That way encouraging more people to cycle and reducing car traffic in the wintertime which everyone knows in wintertime can be horrible.

Edit: The hypothetical argument that snowmobiles should be used in the summer time isn't parallel to cycling in the winter. The reason cycling isn't meant for wintertime in Halifax is because the infrastructure that is already present is not maintained for wintertime. Whereas, snowmobiling can't be done in summertime because there isn't any snow. There are still roads in the winter time.

I do think the city's mismanagment of sidewalk clearing in the wintertime is also something that the city needs to invest in a lot more, but the video wasn't focussing on that issue.

Bicycles are inherently dangerous even in ideal conditions, but they are lethal in winter regardless of how well any govt tries to maintain the roads. We really should consider a winter biking ban during snow events the way we do with parking.
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  #591  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2017, 10:14 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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Yes the city should spend a large amount of money to clear the roads for a small number of cyclists. I note the lack of comment on the snow covered sidewalks in the video. Money really does grow on trees...in Halifax.
I can't attest to how much extra budget it would take to clear the part of the road that has bicycle lanes on it, but I will say that doing so will benefit more than the bicycling community.

Even if it is only done on the main roads, and I'm assuming it would take a snowblower and dump truck to cut back the snowbanks, opening up those lanes will make it safer and more efficient for the car traffic that is otherwise held up by and scared to death of hitting bicyclists, plus gives buses and/or delivery trucks a place to pull off to avoid holding up traffic.

Plus, for the next snow storm it is easier for the snow clearing crews to have room there to push off the snow and thus be able to get the lanes clear again more quickly.

So, while it may be a benefit for cyclists, it really benefits car traffic as much or more. Not a cut and dried issue, IMHO.

Sidewalks are another issue as icy sidewalks are a problem for everybody, but especially for the elderly and people with mobility issues, in wheelchairs/scooters, etc. etc. I don't think anybody expects perfection, but we are quite far from that, so no danger of being perfect. It may cost money, but sometimes you just have to pay it - everything costs money but the priorities are not always in the right place, IMHO.

Just my ...
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  #592  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2017, 11:26 PM
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Bicycles are inherently dangerous even in ideal conditions, but they are lethal in winter regardless of how well any govt tries to maintain the roads. We really should consider a winter biking ban during snow events the way we do with parking.
Cars are inherently dangerous even in ideal conditions, but they are lethal in winter regardless of how well any govt tries to maintain the roads. We really should consider a winter driving ban during snow events the way we do with parking.
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  #593  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2017, 11:51 PM
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Cars are inherently dangerous even in ideal conditions, but they are lethal in winter regardless of how well any govt tries to maintain the roads. We really should consider a winter driving ban during snow events the way we do with parking.
Makes the most sense.

I mean, really, when was the last time a bike accident closed a highway?
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  #594  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2017, 11:53 PM
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Cars are inherently dangerous even in ideal conditions, but they are lethal in winter regardless of how well any govt tries to maintain the roads. We really should consider a winter driving ban during snow events the way we do with parking.
L'absurdité.
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  #595  
Old Posted Dec 22, 2017, 12:37 AM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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Honestly, guys...

Life is inherently dangerous, in fact I can confidently say that we will all die someday, and there is nobody on this forum or on this planet who can dispute that fact.

Everything is a risk, and everybody constantly balances risk vs reward, whether they are aware of it or not.

So whether you drive a car or a bicycle, every time you go out on that journey you decide to take that risk, and you are usually rewarded with arriving at your destination in the way that you prefer to travel, unscathed.

Nothing wrong with trying to improve safety for everybody, but really I want to say "Can't we all just get along". I mean, everybody is just trying to live their lives, doing what they need to do, and getting where they need to go. Car drivers are not trying (or wanting) to hurt cyclists, they are just trying to go somewhere. All the framing of 'evil car drivers trying to intimidate innocent bike riders' is really just smoke and mirrors. We all have our challenges and our threats, and we all need to do whatever we can do to be safe.

But, the reality of physics doesn't give anybody a break - it just is what it is. A train can destroy an 18-wheeler, which can make mincemeat out of a 5-ton straight truck, which can flatten a pickup or SUV, which can inflict severe damage on a car, which can severely injure a motorcyclist, which can do likewise to a cyclist, which can seriously hurt a pedestrian, and so on. Mix and match all the combinations and you find that moving about is... dangerous.

So, how about a dose of reality and level-headedness and do your best to protect yourself, manage your risks, look out for those who are not looking out for you... or themselves. Try to be safe.

That's all.

Last edited by OldDartmouthMark; Dec 22, 2017 at 12:52 AM. Reason: Corrected typo... Life 'is'... not 'in'...
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  #596  
Old Posted Dec 22, 2017, 1:30 AM
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But the very act of cycling amidst all of those bigger, faster, and much heavier vehicles is always a huge risk. Add winter conditions and the risk goes off the charts. I submit that our municipal govt is inviting citizens to put themselves in harms way by suggesting that cycling year round is perfectly OK to do. I suppose someone could decide to skydive into the office without a parachute as well but I would not recommend it as a commuting mechanism.
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  #597  
Old Posted Dec 22, 2017, 2:02 AM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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But the very act of cycling amidst all of those bigger, faster, and much heavier vehicles is always a huge risk. Add winter conditions and the risk goes off the charts. I submit that our municipal govt is inviting citizens to put themselves in harms way by suggesting that cycling year round is perfectly OK to do. I suppose someone could decide to skydive into the office without a parachute as well but I would not recommend it as a commuting mechanism.
I don't disagree, but I'm sure cyclists are well aware of the risks that they are taking, which is probably why the more hard-core of them are continually lobbying to remove cars from the roads. They are reasoning that their safety should be considered to be more important than the desire (and necessity) of people driving their cars (and motorcycles, and delivery trucks, and...).

I guess I'm a little old-school in that I don't believe in over-regulating people's desire to take risks. Let people do what they want to do, as long as they understand the risks of their circumstances. If cyclists want to ride in the winter and they understand the risks, then have at it!

Same with motorcyclists. I know many people for which it is a way of life - they enjoy their motorcycles so much they wouldn't have it any other way, but they know that a collision with a larger vehicle would be really hazardous to them.

Cars have their risks as well. Statistically you are more likely to die in a car accident than many other forms of transportation, but I don't want deny people their option to drive a car as they have so many beneficial aspects to people's lives. They are a risk, but they pay off with rewards of convenience, speed, and freedom.

When we want to take away these modes of transportation on the basis that somebody may hurt themselves, then where to we stop? Do we ban sports because people are likely to become injured from playing them? Do we legislate people to not walk or shovel snow in the winter because they may become injured or die while doing so? Maybe we ban skyscrapers because they are high and somebody could fall off? Large trucks are dangerous to everybody that uses our roadways - do we ban large trucks and find a way to live without the goods that they are transporting?

In fact, if skydiving into the office was practical and an individual wanted to commute that way, then I don't see a problem with it.

It always comes down to risk vs reward - and we all need to find a way to balance them in our lives.

Of course, obviously we have to have limits, and I suppose the crux of the conversation is based on where do we draw those lines in the sand as we all have different ideas on how it should be done...
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  #598  
Old Posted Dec 22, 2017, 2:05 AM
englishmanabroad englishmanabroad is offline
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But the reason it is so much more dangerous is because there isn't the infrastructure for it. If you place just a marked bike lane, not separated via median, on a street it hugely improves the safety hazards associated with biking on the road, simply because there is less interaction with those dangerous heavier and faster vehicles.
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  #599  
Old Posted Dec 22, 2017, 12:34 PM
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But the reason it is so much more dangerous is because there isn't the infrastructure for it. If you place just a marked bike lane, not separated via median, on a street it hugely improves the safety hazards associated with biking on the road, simply because there is less interaction with those dangerous heavier and faster vehicles.
And the reason there is a lack of infrastructure for it is that cyclists constitute a tiny minority and there is not an unlimited supply of public funds (although HRM is apparently an exception to that general rule). Those funds should quite rightly be spent on higher priorities. A $10 million bike flyover lane is a huge waste of money that could be far better spent on other transportation improvements that would benefit far more citizens.
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  #600  
Old Posted Dec 22, 2017, 8:09 PM
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Why is there such a common assumption that cyclists want cars off the roads? Making room for cycling (ie making it safer) may or may not come at the expense of drivers, but it's absolutely ridiculous how many people spin borderline-conspiracy-level theories as if there's some bicycle mafia who'll stop at nothing to ban personal vehicle use.
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