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  #1  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2013, 4:34 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is online now
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Hendsbee talking about tolls to downtown again.

Heard this in the news again today:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-s...peninsula.html

Sorry if this has already been discussed here - did a quick scan but couldn't find any threads.

Opinions on this?

To me it seems like an ass-backwards way of dealing with the downtown traffic situation. Charging drivers for the honor of driving downtown is ludicrous in my opinion - this appears to be a simple tax grab that will do nothing to keep traffic out of the downtown. It would, however, make the traffic situation much worse by causing backups while people stop to pay tolls. Not to mention that it would simply take money away from people who are already feeling the pinch of the economy.

If it is successful, then I see less people choosing downtown as a potential shopping district and thus having a negative impact on retail business. A lose-lose situation IMHO.

Seems to me the best way to get people to leave their cars at home but still go downtown would be to make it more convenient for them to do so - i.e. improved busing, LRT, etc. etc. Not to mention that it would be an investment into Halifax's future growth as a city.

My god it seems like it's difficult to get somebody in public office here who will use logic and common sense! Am I missing something?

What's next? Curing obesity by charging a toll to get into grocery stores?
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  #2  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2013, 5:20 PM
ILoveHalifax ILoveHalifax is offline
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We only need one toll and that would be about $100.00 to get down Hendsbee's street. Maybe he would fail to show up for council sessions.
There are a lot of reasons why not everyone can take transit, possibly a car full of samples or several brief cases of binders, laptop, etc.
If this is the best idea he can come up with I hope he is not re-elected next time.
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  #3  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2013, 5:21 PM
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Terrible. The tax system is already slanted against the Peninsula and downtown.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax View Post
We only need one toll and that would be about $100.00 to get down Hendsbee's street. Maybe he would fail to show up for council sessions.
Finally some good ideas!
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  #4  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2013, 5:27 PM
Hali87 Hali87 is offline
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This is the underlying concept:

Quote:
To change habits it’s going to have to cost people to do that.
I don't think this is necessarily true. If there were better options on/off the Peninsula, fewer people would drive because it's already costing them (gas $, and particularly, time). The article goes on to clarify that he thinks that the toll would have to come with improved infrastructure etc. which seems reasonable enough. He doesn't seem to consider that with the improved infrastructure the toll might not even be necessary; I guess some people just firmly believe that you can't have a carrot without a stick.

The last couple paragraphs:

Quote:
But not everyone around the council table agrees.

“It’s certainly not an idea that I'm in favour of. I think there's other alternate things we can be looking at express bussing and even perhaps ferry, fast light rail,” said Coun. Brad Johns.

Hendsbee said he expects tolls will be part of several public transit discussions in HRM over the upcoming months.

Still, he said tolls are at least a decade away.
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  #5  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2013, 5:27 PM
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This is a ludicrous suggestion on Councillor Hendsbee's part.

The solution to Halifax's downtown congestion and commuter woes is improved regional transit (commuter rail and perhaps high speed ferries) not restrictive tolls!

If realistic transit options existed, people would use them. I know if I still lived in Halifax, and was commuting from the burbs to downtown for work that I would absolutely use commuter rail.

Build it and they will come!!!

Tolls are a complete non starter. They use them in London England (where they are not popular), but Halifax is not London. If your intent is to kill the remaining retail in the city centre and the pub/restaurant scene, then by all means institute a congestion toll. If your intent is a more realistic solution to the problem then by all means do not re-elect Hendsbee in the next civic election......

I guess the next election is about three years away, right?
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  #6  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2013, 5:28 PM
Drybrain Drybrain is offline
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Congestion pricing like this can be a really great way to promote alternative forms of transport. But that's in cities like London, NYC, etc. Halifax does not have the traffic problems those cities have, and I think this might deter downtown visitors—this is an idea to keep in our back pocket, for a few decades down the road.

(That said, if it was a teeny-tiny toll, and the money were all to go toward building a rail-based transit system, I might feel differently.)
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  #7  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2013, 5:39 PM
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London has the tube, New York has the subway. Halifax has the Bus and a ferry .

No comparison.
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  #8  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2013, 7:34 PM
worldlyhaligonian worldlyhaligonian is offline
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Here's a novel idea... people have to pay to go to the burbs. If these people can afford cars and to live out there, they are the ones that are the problem.

Not only are the suburbs being subsidized by everybody who pays higher taxes on the peninsula, it also leads to more sprawl.

There is no logic here. Why is council full of such morons? I'd like to think there are smart people who have common sense in Halifax/
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  #9  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2013, 8:09 PM
ILoveHalifax ILoveHalifax is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian View Post
Here's a novel idea... people have to pay to go to the burbs. If these people can afford cars and to live out there, they are the ones that are the problem.

Not only are the suburbs being subsidized by everybody who pays higher taxes on the peninsula, it also leads to more sprawl.

There is no logic here. Why is council full of such morons? I'd like to think there are smart people who have common sense in Halifax/
Good thought and maybe we should have a zone system on public transit as well. Those who live way out should pay more to get into town on buses than those who live in town who only travel a few miles.
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  #10  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2013, 8:15 PM
worldlyhaligonian worldlyhaligonian is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax View Post
Good thought and maybe we should have a zone system on public transit as well. Those who live way out should pay more to get into town on buses than those who live in town who only travel a few miles.
In the case of Halifax, this would only target the poor. I think it needs to be more tied to those who can afford cars.

All the people who can afford cars should really live in apartments/houses on the peninsula and use transit in general.
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  #11  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2013, 9:12 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian View Post
In the case of Halifax, this would only target the poor. I think it needs to be more tied to those who can afford cars.

All the people who can afford cars should really live in apartments/houses on the peninsula and use transit in general.
There is very little discernible logic in this statement.
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  #12  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2013, 9:30 PM
worldlyhaligonian worldlyhaligonian is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
There is very little discernible logic in this statement.
Its just a judgement call I'm making on what it costs to own an automobile per year versus what the rent differential is for peninsula versus off peninsula. Furthermore, the anti-development camps have reduced the amount of potential apartment units on the peninsula

If somebody lives in the burbs and DOESN'T drive a car... they are likely looking for a better rent and shouldn't have to pay more to go work on the peninsula.

Do you get my logic? Why should people have to pay more for bad transit service they have to take long distances because rent is artificially higher on the peninsula due to a lack of density. All those with cars who live in the burbs are paying for their cars with the reduced rent... they could likely afford to not have a car and live in walkable or short bus distances.

Much of it has to do with the HRM concept.
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  #13  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2013, 9:33 PM
worldlyhaligonian worldlyhaligonian is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
There is very little discernible logic in this statement.
By tied to affording cars, I mean that if you drive home to your place in the burbs every day you have to pay... i.e. the opposite. From an economics perspective it would make the burbs less attractive in every sense.

Those taking the transit service shouldn't pay extra to live out there when taking the bus (if they can't even afford a car or choose not to own one...) this would increase ridership and put pressure on transit to be better.
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  #14  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2013, 10:12 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian View Post
All the people who can afford cars should really live in apartments/houses on the peninsula and use transit in general.
Sorry, I should not have quoted the first part of your statement as I do not disagree with it. Also, I should have explained my point a little further:

- Owning a car doesn't mean you are rich. For example, a 10 year old Hyundai can be quite cheap to buy and maintain. However, many people (esp. with families) do require the utility of a car and therefore should not be penalized or berated because of it.

- Those that need to own a car, or choose to own a car might not be able to afford to live on the peninsula, or they may not want to live on the peninsula.

- Therefore it's somewhat nonsensical to suggest that anybody who can afford a car should live in a location that may not fit their needs or wants.

However, I do agree that good transit options should be made available to all citizens of HRM, regardless of whether they live on the peninsula or not. That's not to say that every suburb should have a bus snaking through every street, but efficient transit with common pickup points (i.e. a LRT station with sufficient parking area) would do wonders in reducing traffic downtown.

I also agree that HRM should increase population density to the peninsula area to make it more affordable to those who choose this lifestyle. Peninsula living should not only be affordable to the rich. I believe the free market would likely determine the saturation point.

I hope this helps explain my position a little better.
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  #15  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2013, 10:13 PM
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If Hendsbee's position is as stated, it is ludicrous to impose a toll for getting on to the peninsula. If you need to go from Dartmouth to, say, Tantallon, you need to transit across the peninsula. There is no other way to get there. Why pay a toll for that - unless you are trying to penalize people who want to go to Tantallon.
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  #16  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2013, 10:52 PM
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This quote is illuminating:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Councillor Hendsbee
Right now, people on the eastern side of the harbour pay to get into the peninsula over the bridges, but traffic from the western side of the municipality pay nothing so if there's going to be traffic on the peninsula why doesn't all the residents pay for it in some form or fashion? So there would be a user fee.
People in Dartmouth pay more because they need bridges to get across and the bridges need to be paid for. The western side has a natural advantage in terms of getting onto the peninsula (which is reflected in the fact that you can buy a cheaper house in Dartmouth), but this seems unfair to Hendsbee -- everywhere must be equally penalized.

Is it any wonder why Halifax's transportation system is such a disaster when this is the kind of stuff councillors are saying? In most cities people want to fix travel problems with new infrastructure. In Halifax, at least one councillor likes to go off on wild tangents and try to think of ways to make it harder to get around.
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  #17  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2013, 11:01 PM
worldlyhaligonian worldlyhaligonian is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
Sorry, I should not have quoted the first part of your statement as I do not disagree with it. Also, I should have explained my point a little further:

- Owning a car doesn't mean you are rich. For example, a 10 year old Hyundai can be quite cheap to buy and maintain. However, many people (esp. with families) do require the utility of a car and therefore should not be penalized or berated because of it.

- Those that need to own a car, or choose to own a car might not be able to afford to live on the peninsula, or they may not want to live on the peninsula.

- Therefore it's somewhat nonsensical to suggest that anybody who can afford a car should live in a location that may not fit their needs or wants.

However, I do agree that good transit options should be made available to all citizens of HRM, regardless of whether they live on the peninsula or not. That's not to say that every suburb should have a bus snaking through every street, but efficient transit with common pickup points (i.e. a LRT station with sufficient parking area) would do wonders in reducing traffic downtown.

I also agree that HRM should increase population density to the peninsula area to make it more affordable to those who choose this lifestyle. Peninsula living should not only be affordable to the rich. I believe the free market would likely determine the saturation point.

I hope this helps explain my position a little better.
Purchase price is the smallest factor though. Owning a car is actually very expensive in NS on an annualized basis. If you took that price and placed it on top of the rent differential of the north end or parts of the west end it would probably make living in the suburbs much more expensive.
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  #18  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2013, 11:04 PM
Hali87 Hali87 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith P. View Post
If Hendsbee's position is as stated, it is ludicrous to impose a toll for getting on to the peninsula. If you need to go from Dartmouth to, say, Tantallon, you need to transit across the peninsula. There is no other way to get there. Why pay a toll for that - unless you are trying to penalize people who want to go to Tantallon.
How often do you think the average Dartmouthian needs to go to Tantallon?
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  #19  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2013, 11:07 PM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
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We had the Toronto Transit Commission Chair Karen Stintz in Calgary for a talk on public transit and she, along with former Chief Planner Paul Bedford talked about all of the taxation options available to raise money to help fund transit.

While toll roads was considered one, what interested me more was a sales tax. If HRM had the power to levy a 1% sales tax on all purchases, I can't imagine how much money that would raise. Just looking back at the Toronto stats, I seem to recall that it was somewhere in the $2 billion range, at 1%. Looking at the economy of scale principle, that would likely be somewhere around $500 million in HRM I'm guessing, but would rise over time? But the key was the tax could not be used for anything other than public transit - which a recent pole showed 67% of GTAA residents would support. I suspect you would get a similar response in HRM if they saw that it was going to support new rapid transit (LRT, high speed ferry, etc.).

The issue I have with congestion charging and looking at the London example is that while it did reduce the traffic volumes, eventually they came back to the same levels pre-tax. PBS's series E squared did an episode on it and I was shocked by this because I expected, it would've actually stayed low but it didn't. My concern would be we'd be charging this 'toll' and if the goal was to reduce traffic - would we actually see that in say 10 years after everyone got used to it or would it be like London and eventually people just paid it and the amount of traffic went back to the way it was?

Although I do agree with Hensbee's comment about fairness and that the people on the Mainland do have it easy because their access isn't subject to a charge/fee. If that's the case, then maybe we should look at some sort of access charge there too? But I wouldn't go overboard - make it the same as the bridge. I suspect this fairness issue might reduce/be eliminated if a NW arm crossing was built, since it would be under the control of the HDBC and they would definitely tool it.

But I don't think road tolls exclusively will solve the traffic/transit issue in HRM. It has to be a multi-phased approach. They also raised the issue of additional taxation on surfacing parking lots throughout Toronto as a way to raise money (such as major shopping centres) which was really interesting too. I don't have the presentation here, but when I get home I'll post what they talked about as it was quite an extensive list of taxation and fee tools they were looking at (including re-instituting the municipal vehicle registration charge; which Ford had struck down).

For me; the key to all this is where the money goes. If you want people to support paying it and the intention is for traffic improvements through constructing new transit - that is where it has to go. It can't just go into general revenues and then be used to repave a street in god knows where. It must be designated for transit and only used for that purpose.
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  #20  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2013, 11:09 PM
Hali87 Hali87 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian View Post
All the people who can afford cars should really live in apartments/houses on the peninsula and use transit in general.
There are more reasons to live in the suburbs than simple economic ones. I get the feeling that most of the people on this site would prefer to live in a high-density urban area, use public transit, etc. Not everyone wants this though.

Consider that the peninsula is in the process of densifying. It's probably relatively hard to find a single-family home with a backyard and some privacy on the Peninsula as it is, and it will be even harder the more developed the Peninsula becomes. Many families with young kids, or even just people with dogs etc, would probably want to live in a house with a yard that belongs just to them, not to them + 40 other families. So while the dense, walkable-bikable-transit-friendly apartment-dwelling crowd should be attracted to the Peninsula, it's not really fair to say that anyone who can afford a car should live on the Peninsula and use public transit because they could easily afford to if they didn't have a car.
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