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  #1  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2015, 4:29 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is online now
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Reversible centre lane for the Bedford Highway

An article from yesterday in the Chronicle Herald:

http://thechronicleherald.ca/metro/1...way-considered
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  #2  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2015, 12:12 PM
swimmer_spe swimmer_spe is offline
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The real problem is the city is designed for horse and buggy and much less traffic.

In other major cities, they will take a 2 lane road and make it 4.

In Halifax, they take a 2 lane road, and after people whine about trees (Chebucto Road widening), they make it 3 lanes.
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  #3  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2015, 12:31 PM
ILoveHalifax ILoveHalifax is offline
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In another 10 to 15 years they will have to redo the 3 lane highway to expand to 4 or 5 lanes. Why not just do it right now.
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  #4  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2015, 12:34 PM
swimmer_spe swimmer_spe is offline
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Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax View Post
In another 10 to 15 years they will have to redo the 3 lane highway to expand to 4 or 5 lanes. Why not just do it right now.
Because, that is not the Halifax way of doing things.

Name me one road that actually was built with forthinking?
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  #5  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2015, 2:55 PM
ILoveHalifax ILoveHalifax is offline
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Because, that is not the Halifax way of doing things.

Name me one road that actually was built with forthinking?
Robie St from Cunard south
Connaught Av from Windsor St to Jubilee Rd
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  #6  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2015, 8:40 PM
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Robie St from Cunard south
Connaught Av from Windsor St to Jubilee Rd
Robie - What about north, where most of the traffic goes??

Connaught, Ok, I will agree.
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  #7  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2015, 8:44 PM
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Robie - What about north, where most of the traffic goes??

Connaught, Ok, I will agree.

The fact that Robie between North and Almon is still as it was in the 1930s is really all the evidence one needs.
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  #8  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2015, 9:31 PM
ILoveHalifax ILoveHalifax is offline
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Seems to me 12, 13 years ago when I moved to Halifax there was a proposal to widen Robie from Cunard to Almon and big disicussion whether it be 3 lanes or 4 lanes.
All this time later nothing done.
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  #9  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2015, 12:28 AM
worldlyhaligonian worldlyhaligonian is offline
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Seems to me 12, 13 years ago when I moved to Halifax there was a proposal to widen Robie from Cunard to Almon and big disicussion whether it be 3 lanes or 4 lanes.
All this time later nothing done.
That's because everything gets shut down by certain folks... even though all this widening will help the buses be more efficient.
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  #10  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2015, 1:16 PM
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That's because everything gets shut down by certain folks... even though all this widening will help the buses be more efficient.
To pay devil's advocate , everyone so far seems to be ignoring the studies that show that adding lanes is only a short-term. Long-term, those additional lanes only encourage more congestion as more and more cars are drawn to the road.

We need to focus on long-term solutions. Perhaps a commuter rail or ferry?
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  #11  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2015, 8:10 PM
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To pay devil's advocate , everyone so far seems to be ignoring the studies that show that adding lanes is only a short-term. Long-term, those additional lanes only encourage more congestion as more and more cars are drawn to the road.

And as we have debated here previously, those studies are shown to largely be nonsense. According to their logic, the way to eliminate congestion is to ensure all major arteries are 1-lane dirt paths.
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  #12  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2015, 8:46 PM
worldlyhaligonian worldlyhaligonian is offline
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To pay devil's advocate , everyone so far seems to be ignoring the studies that show that adding lanes is only a short-term. Long-term, those additional lanes only encourage more congestion as more and more cars are drawn to the road.

We need to focus on long-term solutions. Perhaps a commuter rail or ferry?
BRT then LRT in the rail cut. Why can't we at least afford a Bombardier tram network.

You don't get the point about buses though. I see what you are trying to say, but buses not only cause alot of congestion... ridership is likely low due to the fact they are so slow due to car congestion. Maybe we need widenings to include dedicated bus lanes?

The argument that widening doesn't solve any of the problem is definitely not true. I'm pro biking and public transit, but Halifax has far too narrow roads in many places.

Height solves sprawl, widening solves congestion. These are truisms. I know it hurts some people to back up on their stance, but how will we ever have effective public transit with very narrow roads and people living in sprawl everywhere?

I also say, raise taxes in the suburbs and lower them in the city. It should financially cost people to live way out there. Where are these studies you speak of?
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  #13  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2015, 9:38 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is online now
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Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian View Post
I also say, raise taxes in the suburbs and lower them in the city. It should financially cost people to live way out there.
You had me right up to that point, then you lost me.

Attempting to 'force' people into living a certain lifestyle by making it tight for them financially shouldn't be a goal of any government in Canada. The urban environment is obviously popular here on this forum (skyscraper... uh yeah...) but that's not how everybody wants to live and the government has no place in forcing people into situations for "the greater good", etc. It can be a slippery slope from there...

Educate - yes. Dictate - no.

That's all I'm going to say about that.
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  #14  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2015, 4:30 AM
worldlyhaligonian worldlyhaligonian is offline
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Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
You had me right up to that point, then you lost me.

Attempting to 'force' people into living a certain lifestyle by making it tight for them financially shouldn't be a goal of any government in Canada. The urban environment is obviously popular here on this forum (skyscraper... uh yeah...) but that's not how everybody wants to live and the government has no place in forcing people into situations for "the greater good", etc. It can be a slippery slope from there...

Educate - yes. Dictate - no.

That's all I'm going to say about that.
I'm not saying force anybody to do anything... but all the people figuring they can evade the taxes of the city, demand the same services and create traffic congestion (while shouting there isn't enough parking downtown... where they have chosen not to live) then their is a problem. This is what policy is.

Why do people on the peninsula pay for the sprawl of others. What is going to happen when oil prices go up again?
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  #15  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2015, 8:27 AM
ILoveHalifax ILoveHalifax is offline
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Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian View Post
I'm not saying force anybody to do anything... but all the people figuring they can evade the taxes of the city, demand the same services and create traffic congestion (while shouting there isn't enough parking downtown... where they have chosen not to live) then their is a problem. This is what policy is.

Why do people on the peninsula pay for the sprawl of others. What is going to happen when oil prices go up again?
Better question, why do people who drive cars subsidize public transit? The real cost of your bus ride is where 8 to 10 $ or higher every time? Time for those who don't like roads to pay up. We should raise the fares and employers would be forced to increase wages because their staff would not be able to get to work on a subsidized bus ticket. Subsidized transit is just more corporate welfare, and the 1 % get richer.

Don't worry about the car driver because the typical budget is house first then the car and gas. It might be bigger or smaller but all else follows the car. One can cut back on groceries, lower the heat, turn off the lights, eat out less or stretch everything else clothing, household repairs, vacations, etc but the car in most cases is a necessity.
There is a freedom to owning and operating a car; it is climate controlled and it goes when and where you want it to.
Society can make car driving as miserable as it wants but the car is still a much better option for most people.
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  #16  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2015, 1:52 PM
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Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
Attempting to 'force' people into living a certain lifestyle by making it tight for them financially shouldn't be a goal of any government in Canada. The urban environment is obviously popular here on this forum (skyscraper... uh yeah...) but that's not how everybody wants to live and the government has no place in forcing people into situations for "the greater good", etc. It can be a slippery slope from there...

Educate - yes. Dictate - no.

That's all I'm going to say about that.
But that's what govts do. This is nothing new.

The tax system has been used as a social policy tool for generations. It subsidizes people who use public transit via a tax credit. It subsidizes families with kids over single folks. Etc etc. This is no different.
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  #17  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2015, 2:32 PM
eastcoastal eastcoastal is offline
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And as we have debated here previously, those studies are shown to largely be nonsense. According to their logic, the way to eliminate congestion is to ensure all major arteries are 1-lane dirt paths.
I believe they usually point to charge for usage to reduce congestion in trouble spots. I haven't done any sort of exhaustive review, but read this recently:

http://www.vox.com/2014/10/23/699415...induced-demand

I found it interesting that the article suggests that transit (in most cases) is not an effective congestion reduction tool either.
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  #18  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2015, 3:27 PM
Metalsales Metalsales is offline
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Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax View Post
Better question, why do people who drive cars subsidize public transit? The real cost of your bus ride is where 8 to 10 $ or higher every time? Time for those who don't like roads to pay up. We should raise the fares and employers would be forced to increase wages because their staff would not be able to get to work on a subsidized bus ticket. Subsidized transit is just more corporate welfare, and the 1 % get richer.

Don't worry about the car driver because the typical budget is house first then the car and gas. It might be bigger or smaller but all else follows the car. One can cut back on groceries, lower the heat, turn off the lights, eat out less or stretch everything else clothing, household repairs, vacations, etc but the car in most cases is a necessity.
There is a freedom to owning and operating a car; it is climate controlled and it goes when and where you want it to.
Society can make car driving as miserable as it wants but the car is still a much better option for most people.
I wish this post had a "like" or "favorite" button.

I am neither pro urban or pro suburban, but I do choose to live in the suburbs. I have a piece of land that affords me not to have neighbors on top of me and this allows privacy. I also have room for my dogs to run.

I see benefits of both lifestyles, and I get to choose which one. you wont hear me whine or complain about public transit, as I do not use it. Traffic sucks but I think we are much better than other areas of Canada.
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  #19  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2015, 3:43 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is online now
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Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian View Post
I'm not saying force anybody to do anything... but all the people figuring they can evade the taxes of the city, demand the same services and create traffic congestion (while shouting there isn't enough parking downtown... where they have chosen not to live) then their is a problem. This is what policy is.

Why do people on the peninsula pay for the sprawl of others. What is going to happen when oil prices go up again?
I don't think people are moving anywhere to "evade" taxes. I think they are choosing where to live based on the lifestyle that they want.

Not everybody looks at highrise living as the absolute pinnacle of existence. To some, being confined to a small apartment with uninvited audible and olfactory glimpses into their neighbors' lives is not how they wish to live. Land on the peninsula is limited and thus expensive. For a household with average income the idea of owning a house on the peninsula with a backyard for their kids to play in or their dog to runabout is not a possibility. So, they choose to live a little further out of the core so they can do just that.

For those choosing to do so, car expenses are a necessity, since for the most part transit is pathetic around here, a thought which has been reinforced with our recent weather - buses on "snow plan", uncleared sidewalks, huge snowbanks to climb over in order to cross the street, etc. (conditions which also made living carless downtown quite miserable as well, I imagine). Not to mention, as has been brought up here numerous times, nobody wants to subsidize transit to the suburbs. In reality cars aren't as expensive as somebody with no experience might think, if the purchase is done sensibly and the buyer takes time to educate themselves on the subject of car ownership, maintenance and repair.

So, what would your solution be? Raise taxes in the suburbs so that the average person can't live in a house with a back yard? Should that only be something that the privileged rich can afford? Do you think that this will make people live in highrises? It would more likely cause people to want to live somewhere else, in another city...

Another aspect that I think you're not taking into account with your assessment, are the difficulties placed on commuting by our geography. Most large cities are not bound like Halifax is, on a peninsula with no real way to get off it, unless you travel back up the peninsula until you can get on a bridge or a highway outbound. Therefore the perils of traffic are magnified somewhat because of geography-imposed bottlenecks. Contrary to popular opinion, if we were to remove those bottlenecks, in building crossings near the downtown (both harbour and arm), this would relieve a lot of the perceived traffic issues. Combine this with a good transit system (by "good" I mean one that is efficient and convenient, to create an attractive alternative to taking their cars) and Bob's your uncle. Then, as if by magic, what is considered "downtown" has just expanded itself beyond the confines of the peninsula, allowing growth in those areas and attracting people away from the suburbs, 'cause who really wants to live there anyways?

Don't hold your breath thinking that rising oil prices will have any effect on car usage, by the way...
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  #20  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2015, 3:46 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is online now
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Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax View Post
Better question, why do people who drive cars subsidize public transit? The real cost of your bus ride is where 8 to 10 $ or higher every time? Time for those who don't like roads to pay up. We should raise the fares and employers would be forced to increase wages because their staff would not be able to get to work on a subsidized bus ticket. Subsidized transit is just more corporate welfare, and the 1 % get richer.

Don't worry about the car driver because the typical budget is house first then the car and gas. It might be bigger or smaller but all else follows the car. One can cut back on groceries, lower the heat, turn off the lights, eat out less or stretch everything else clothing, household repairs, vacations, etc but the car in most cases is a necessity.
There is a freedom to owning and operating a car; it is climate controlled and it goes when and where you want it to.
Society can make car driving as miserable as it wants but the car is still a much better option for most people.
There is much truth in your post.
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