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  #1  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2015, 1:17 PM
Metalsales Metalsales is offline
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Condo Construction- Workmanship

I'm surprised no one else has posted this yet.

Very interesting. There are many factors causing these woes from workmanship, to sub-par materials....

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-s...lems-1.3302025
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  #2  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2015, 1:22 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is online now
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Oops... I also posted this in the General Updates and News thread. I'll paste it here to keep the responses in this thread:

Heard this on the radio this morning:

Quote:
Nova Scotia condos hurt by widespread workmanship woes: leaked report

Article at the link:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-s...lems-1.3302025

Anecdotally, my MIL was renting a condo in a newish building (around 4 years old at the time) a few years back and I heard through the condo owners that many units had water leak issues among other things and several of them had to spend in the vicinity of 10 grand to fix the issues. I would be wild, I have to say, to have just made the biggest purchase of my life and then have to spend more money due to the fact that the building wasn't built correctly! And, realistically, I don't know how a prospective condo owner would have any way of knowing in advance if they were going to face this problem or not.

This would really make me reconsider the purchase of a condo. Hopefully it will not affect sales of the new buildings going up in Halifax.

It makes me wonder how this could have gone on for so many years with no accountability process for builders and developers.

So is this just a Nova Scotia thing, or is it happening elsewhere as well?
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  #3  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2015, 3:05 PM
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Ziobrop Ziobrop is offline
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Vancouver had big issues with leaking condos. there are a number of documented cases in Toronto as well.

the repairs are generally the responsibility of the condo corp - but a 4 year old condo corp usually doesnt have the reserves to cover the repairs. - that leads to the cost of the work being divided up between all the owners and a special assessment being levied. Owners also get screwed, because they often dont even have enough built in equity to sell, pay the assessment and break even.

the people running the condo corp often arn't qualified to operate a building, so they may also get questionable advice on repair/ignore the problem till it gets much worse.

I think the blame lies with the city and province. they require certified trades people, supervising their apprentices. they impose building codes,and charge for permits, and offer inspections - but seeming pass this shoddy work.

the city needs to ensure inspections are proper, and red seal trades need to start loosing licenses if they cant do work to code, or ensure their apprentices are.
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Old Posted Nov 4, 2015, 3:46 PM
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Keith P. Keith P. is offline
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This has been a problem for a long time. Back in the late '80s/early '90s a friend who had bought new at Waterfront Place on Lower Water St was hit with a 5-figure assessment for their share of the cost to do repairs to the building's sprinkler system. The building was perhaps 6 years old at the time, if that. No excuse.
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  #5  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2015, 4:22 PM
Metalsales Metalsales is offline
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I can only speak on behalf of the envelope of these buildings, but it would scare you to know how many new buildings(less than 5 years old) are routinely looked at because of water leaks and bad installation.

Some of this is due to cheap products being used that are not designed to operate in our climate. Some developers are swoon by the lower prices that they can get, but in the end, the system does not perform and costs more to have fixed.

You then get a lot of labour installing systems that are not qualified. Take Glazing for example. There is no certified training system locally that trains the workers on what they should be doing. Companies rely on experienced guys(I do not mean experts) who show the new guys. This usually results in handed down information that is wrong.

The nearest formal training is in Alberta, where this is a certified trade.

Luckily, there is a local branch of the National Building Envelope Council(NBEC) that is trying to bring education to a lot of these problems. Info can be found here: ecbec.ca
They often put on seminars hat cover a wide variety of topics and problems.
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  #6  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2015, 4:57 PM
Drybrain Drybrain is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post

This would really make me reconsider the purchase of a condo. Hopefully it will not affect sales of the new buildings going up in Halifax.

It makes me wonder how this could have gone on for so many years with no accountability process for builders and developers.

So is this just a Nova Scotia thing, or is it happening elsewhere as well?
Everywhere (or at least Toronto, Alberta, and Vancouver (and Vancouver again).

Leakage seems to be the main issue, though in the past few summers, glass panes in Toronto condo towers have frequently popped out of their fittings on hot days and plummeted to the street below.

Given that condos in these cities, and increasingly in Halifax, are the last reasonably affordable home ownership option for non-wealthy people in inner-city areas, it's a real problem if these homes are second-rate. (Though I bet some of these problems also plague lower end suburban starter homes.)
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Old Posted Nov 4, 2015, 4:58 PM
eastcoastal eastcoastal is offline
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I hear Q lofts is partially occupied. Still no heat. Developer has provided space heaters and a $5/day rebate until heat is up and running - no date set for that to happen.
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  #8  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2015, 5:35 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drybrain View Post
Everywhere (or at least Toronto, Alberta, and Vancouver (and Vancouver again).

Leakage seems to be the main issue, though in the past few summers, glass panes in Toronto condo towers have frequently popped out of their fittings on hot days and plummeted to the street below.

Given that condos in these cities, and increasingly in Halifax, are the last reasonably affordable home ownership option for non-wealthy people in inner-city areas, it's a real problem if these homes are second-rate. (Though I bet some of these problems also plague lower end suburban starter homes.)
Wow! Panes of glass falling on pedestrians below!

Looks like plenty of cases of it out there:
http://news.nationalpost.com/tag/falling-glass


Also, relevant to the thread topic:
http://www.bnn.ca/News/2014/10/14/Ex...rban-slum.aspx


Regarding suburban starter homes, I recall during the building boom in Halifax, hearing many stories of poor quality workmanship and other problems with homes built by some of the companies who were basically mass-producing them at the time. I even heard that some of these larger companies would start smaller companies to bang up a bunch of houses and then fold them before the complaints started rolling in. Not sure how much truth there was to those claims, as it was all word-of-mouth.
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  #9  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2015, 6:02 PM
Drybrain Drybrain is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
Wow! Panes of glass falling on pedestrians below!

Looks like plenty of cases of it out there:
http://news.nationalpost.com/tag/falling-glass


Also, relevant to the thread topic:
http://www.bnn.ca/News/2014/10/14/Ex...rban-slum.aspx
As that BNN story says, there's some concern that the highrises in Toronto and Vancouver that have shop up in the past decade are in for enormous repair bills in another 20 year or so as the glass window walls, which have a limited lifespan, start to fail and need replacing. (Among other issues).

Glass looks cool, but it's not energy efficient, and it has enormous implications for ongoing building maintenance. We have problems with a large stock of run-down buildings from a century or two ago, but some of these new buildings might be similarly rundown in only a couple of decades, and they might be just as pricey to fix, if not moreso.
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  #10  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2015, 6:35 PM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
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Glass curtain walls are getting better and better with energy efficiency - particularly on projects that aim for LEED certification. The catch with that is that because no City mandates the building achieve any environmental level of sustainability - cheap will always rule the day (unless it's a builder that has a good reputation for quality and makes the choice of better quality materials - but the cost still gets passed on to the buyer).

I know Toronto's CBO (Chief Building Official) and some of the stuff I've heard about falling glass and things is...well, frightening. For me; if the CBO of Canada's largest City is concerned - then I'm concerned as a planner.

Part of the reality of the inspection process (as I understand it) is resourcing. I don't think there is a city yet that has figured out the inspection process so that a builder can get to a certain point; get an inspector out to check and then continue to proceed. That's how it should be (in theory); but in practice it can be quite difficult. Plus; it's usually one inspector who goes out (not saying this is the way HRM does it) to do a specific type of inspection. I know here in Calgary we've tried teams of inspectors for large scale projects - not sure how well that works. But can you imagine the pressure on the building inspector to do an inspection for a 30 storey building? That person might have to do 25 other inspections that day! So at most might be able to look over the building in an hour...maybe two?

One thing I've thought might be the solution to this issue (and could help pay for extra inspection staff) was to make the building permit costs reflect the true cost of staff time plus 20%. In Calgary; that's how our building permit fees work - the permit fees you pay fund the building inspectors and I believe that's the way it works in most Ontario communities under Provincial Building Code law (the fees fund the staff). So if the question is resourcing - why not make the fees higher to pay for additional staff?
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  #11  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2015, 6:41 PM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
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This was one of the issues my building went through recently out here in Calgary. Keep in mind it's an older building - but the City went after the firm and managed to get a conviction.
http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/ca...762/story.html
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  #12  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2015, 7:06 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drybrain View Post
As that BNN story says, there's some concern that the highrises in Toronto and Vancouver that have shop up in the past decade are in for enormous repair bills in another 20 year or so as the glass window walls, which have a limited lifespan, start to fail and need replacing. (Among other issues).

Glass looks cool, but it's not energy efficient, and it has enormous implications for ongoing building maintenance. We have problems with a large stock of run-down buildings from a century or two ago, but some of these new buildings might be similarly rundown in only a couple of decades, and they might be just as pricey to fix, if not moreso.
Good points.

Man, I've said tongue-in-cheek before that the new buildings will only last a few decades, but my god it looks like it's closer to truth than fiction.

They have to get the falling glass situation under control forthright. There will probably be fatalities from this sooner or later. Unacceptable!
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Old Posted Nov 4, 2015, 7:17 PM
Drybrain Drybrain is offline
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Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
Good points.

Man, I've said tongue-in-cheek before that the new buildings will only last a few decades, but my god it looks like it's closer to truth than fiction.
I'm guessing there is a big gulf in quality from lower to higher end. Something like Theatre Lofts or Harris East (bear in mind I'm judging purely by how they look and feel) may well be in visibly bad shape in a relatively short time.

Something like the Roy or YMCA or even the Vic, I hope we can expect more longevity from.
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  #14  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2015, 8:03 PM
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I could see there being a different level of care from the builder (developer) if its condo vs rental. Assuming the developer will keep the rental building for 25 years, its in their best interest to spend money upfront so there aren't quality and maintenance issues over the term of owning the building as they pay the repair bill. Condos on the other hand would just have to last through the warranty period and then the developer is off the hook with repair being taken on by the condo corp.
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  #15  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2015, 8:35 PM
DigitalNinja DigitalNinja is offline
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This is despicable. I knew that there were problems with condos but I didn't realize that they were this prevalent. Some of these builders are just in it to make a quick buck then leave the province with the profits.

I think that the builders should have to put up a certain amount of money per unit in a building to the condo corp and the money stays with the corp for a certain number of years to cover any workmanship issues. If after that time period is up there were no issues/money left over it would go back to the builder. Only problem with this is that some builders close up shop so often it wouldn't be feasible.

This problem doesn't just affect condos though either. The building I work in is barely 2 years old and all last winter we had roof leaks all over the place. I could see maybe one or two due to something not being 100% right but there were like 15-20 leaks in the building.
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  #16  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2015, 4:52 PM
Metalsales Metalsales is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drybrain View Post
I'm guessing there is a big gulf in quality from lower to higher end. Something like Theatre Lofts or Harris East (bear in mind I'm judging purely by how they look and feel) may well be in visibly bad shape in a relatively short time.

Something like the Roy or YMCA or even the Vic, I hope we can expect more longevity from.

Don't be so sure on that last sentence. There is a major difference in comparing Window-wall and Curtainwall. Window wall, as far as I can gather, is the one with many leak issues and glass falling out. Curtainwall is a much more robust system, and though it can still leak, is designed to drain.

A lot of these new developments(Roy, Maple, ICon Bay) are all using window wall. There may be a few areas using curtainwall, but it is small area comparably.

I noticed Francis Fares responded in the news today about yesterdays article. Funny as I know one of the buildings at Kings Wharf are already leaking.
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  #17  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2015, 4:50 PM
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Jonovision Jonovision is offline
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Originally Posted by Metalsales View Post
A lot of these new developments(Roy, Maple, ICon Bay) are all using window wall. There may be a few areas using curtainwall, but it is small area comparably.
Maybe I've not had a chance to look close enough but I thought Icon Bay was curtainwall?
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  #18  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2015, 3:03 PM
Metalsales Metalsales is offline
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No, it is window wall. The cost difference between these systems is the major factor, but in the long run, cheaper is not better.

The other thing you will notice with window wall is the it is very constrained design-wise. That is why a lot of these buildings look the same as each other.
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  #19  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2015, 7:13 PM
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i wasent sure the difference, so i looked it up

From: http://news.buzzbuzzhome.com/2011/11...lls-brian.html
Quote:
Case Study: Curtain Walls vs. Window Walls

For residential condo construction, condos built with glass are usually built using a window wall design; in contrast, office buildings and hotels normally use curtain wall design. Window wall systems are installed between the concrete slabs of a building and use caulking and taping to create a seal that prevents moisture from entering the building. The two advantages for window walls systems are, first, they can be installed quickly and easily and are relatively cheap, which keeps individual condo units affordable. Second, they compartmentalize issues between floors. If spot repairs are required, they can be carried out with minimal disturbance. The compartmentalization also decreases sound transmission between floors.

One disadvantage of window walls is that, over time (and in the worst-case scenario, with poor installation,in as little as five years), the seals can dry out and crack, causing water to leak into the building, which will result in expensive repairs to reseal the entire building. A second disadvantage is that, due to the weaker structural integrity of the glazing in a window wall design, the system has to be built with more pieces (mullions) and joints. This construction makes the building look less smooth aesthetically and, due to the number of joints, increases the risk of failure.

Curtain walls, which have been used mainly in commercial buildings, hang off the front of the building and are anchored on the concrete slabs using metal plates. Curtain walls are much more resistant to moisture, wind, heat and earthquakes and require less maintenance (again, if installed correctly).

Curtain walls also have stronger structural integrity, meaning fewer mullions and joints; as a result, the buildings can look more aesthetically pleasing. On the downside, curtain wall systems can be anywhere from double to triple the cost of window wall design, and are typically found only in more luxury projects. Another disadvantage to a curtain wall system is sound conduction. Noise can be easily transmitted throughout the entire building as it’s conducted through the wall system.
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  #20  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2015, 9:35 PM
Colin May Colin May is offline
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Bottom line : Build for sale and build cheap. When the sales don't materialise the developer has builders remorse as tenants complain.
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