HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Atlantic Provinces > Halifax > Transportation & Infrastructure


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #21  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2016, 9:35 PM
someone123's Avatar
someone123 someone123 is offline
hähnchenbrüstfiletstüc
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 33,673
Quote:
Originally Posted by portapetey View Post
I'm with transit, and not just buses. Something innovative or at least different from the same old stuck-in-traffic buses. If rail is the answer, then rail, but something reasonable and useful - two or three short corridors.
I was back in Portland again and again was struck by how nice the streetcars are (in a bunch of qualitative ways) and how compatible they seem like they would be with Halifax.

Portland, OR is a much larger city but its scale is for the most part pretty comparable to Halifax. Many of the corridors there have a similar vibe in terms of the amount of people and how built up they are (actually highrise apartments and the like may be more popular in Halifax). It is not like, say, NYC, where there are huge throngs of people and completely different transportation solutions are needed. The Portland streetcars themselves are often just in one direction along a single street. There are two-lane streets that have been converted over to one lane for streetcars and one lane for other traffic. This type of setup is affordable, and for bottlenecks you can use a mix of signal priority, elevated sections, and tunnels. Streetcars could go over the bridges too, while larger vehicles probably could not.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.52526...!6m1!1e1?hl=en

The streetcars could connect up with the ferries and MetroLink at a real downtown multi-modal terminal. They could also link up to terminals like Mumford or Lacewood which could be the start of BRT routes for the suburbs. Streets like Barrington and Spring Garden, assuming streetscaping and a switch from buses to streetcars, would be dramatically nicer places to walk around and shop.

Last edited by someone123; Jul 4, 2016 at 9:47 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #22  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2016, 11:04 PM
Colin May Colin May is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,480
Quote:
Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
$40M only works out to 1% or so of the budget that regional council gets to play with during a normal four-year term. Something can be done with that chunk of change for sure but it's not really a huge "issue" for the city; the annual budget exercise is a much bigger deal.
In 2015/16 all HRM business units had a budget of $558 million.
Policing cost $108 million
Fire cost $59 million
Transit cost $112 million

A $40 million windfall is a substantial amount, enough for one significant project. Almost equivalent to building and equipping a central library.
A significant amount towards the cost of a streetcar project.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #23  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2016, 12:08 AM
beyeas beyeas is offline
Fizzix geek
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: South End, Hali
Posts: 1,303
Quote:
Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
I was back in Portland again and again was struck by how nice the streetcars are (in a bunch of qualitative ways) and how compatible they seem like they would be with Halifax.

Portland, OR is a much larger city but its scale is for the most part pretty comparable to Halifax. Many of the corridors there have a similar vibe in terms of the amount of people and how built up they are (actually highrise apartments and the like may be more popular in Halifax). It is not like, say, NYC, where there are huge throngs of people and completely different transportation solutions are needed. The Portland streetcars themselves are often just in one direction along a single street. There are two-lane streets that have been converted over to one lane for streetcars and one lane for other traffic. This type of setup is affordable, and for bottlenecks you can use a mix of signal priority, elevated sections, and tunnels. Streetcars could go over the bridges too, while larger vehicles probably could not.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.52526...!6m1!1e1?hl=en

The streetcars could connect up with the ferries and MetroLink at a real downtown multi-modal terminal. They could also link up to terminals like Mumford or Lacewood which could be the start of BRT routes for the suburbs. Streets like Barrington and Spring Garden, assuming streetscaping and a switch from buses to streetcars, would be dramatically nicer places to walk around and shop.
I agree, and I see a real opportunity here, given that we are simultaneously developing a Centre Plan. My fear is that the city will not be forward thinking enough to think big picture here. To have a truly successful streetcar route will take deciding that there needs to be a coherent route with sufficient density. What seems to happen in Halifax more often is that we decide that since we don't need something tomorrow we won't begin the process of active planning for it, and then when all of a sudden the day is here and there are matching funds available we are too far behind to catch up, and the moment passes by.

We should be looking at this as one big coherent opportunity, that has dropped into our laps as a convergence of a Centre Plan being developed, $40M windfall, and a federal government favourable to infrastructure mating funds for public transit. Let's figure out as a city what a street car line could and should look like in terms of routing. Let's then build into the centre plan that we are looking to build density along that route, and maybe even add density bonuses for developers willing to contribute to infrastructure that would support streetcars, and then take our $40M and go to the Liberals and say "We have a plan". I worry that if the moment passes us, which I fear will be true given that transportation planning and development planning seem to be islands in this city, that we will miss the boat... er, streetcar.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #24  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2016, 12:37 AM
Keith P.'s Avatar
Keith P. Keith P. is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,964
In that case, finally stop with EAC and obstructionist whining and widen Bayers Road all the way up to Windsor St. including buying the houses at the start of the 102 ramps that constrict flow there. Replace the ancient railway cut overpasses at the same time.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #25  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2016, 2:26 AM
someone123's Avatar
someone123 someone123 is offline
hähnchenbrüstfiletstüc
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 33,673
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyeas View Post
I worry that if the moment passes us, which I fear will be true given that transportation planning and development planning seem to be islands in this city, that we will miss the boat... er, streetcar.
I don't think that transportation planning in the city will be fixed for a while but if a streetcar plan gets to council and it gets a bit of traction like commuter rail it could happen. One nice aspect of a simple streetcar plan is that there aren't the same external factors to worry about. Commuter rail is complicated because of CN and Transport Canada's safety rules around mixing passenger trains and freight trains. Ferries had issues with wake and max speeds that would have resulted in a service much worse than what was originally touted. These problems are a big part of why the projects have moved so slowly. In a city without strong planning and leadership there's something to be said for choosing modest projects that have a higher likelihood of being implemented.

Here's a (proposed streetcar system (from 2009, maybe should be tweaked based on Centre Plan areas of focus): http://www.slideshare.net/cresthalif...ax-nova-scotia

One important aspect of the plan which you already mentioned that gets missed is that a huge part of the payoff comes from encouraging transit-oriented development. A new transit line or system has to be thought of in terms of serving a couple of existing trips plus TOD potential. No system and certainly no single route is going to be all things to all people in the metro area. Halifax also needs to get over the fear of providing better levels of service downtown compared to outlying areas. More people use these services, the needs are different, and people and businesses in the core pay a higher level of taxes. A good transit system serving the core would generate benefits for everybody in the region, even if trains aren't stopping near their doorstep.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #26  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2016, 12:54 PM
IanWatson IanWatson is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,220
Did Clayton ever give a price tag for the Purcells Cove Backlands? Seems like that could be a good use of some of the money.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #27  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2016, 3:43 PM
Colin May Colin May is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,480
Quote:
Originally Posted by IanWatson View Post
Did Clayton ever give a price tag for the Purcells Cove Backlands? Seems like that could be a good use of some of the money.
Clayton paid $4.7 million in August 2011 for 3 parcels of 389 acres
I'm sure the people of Williams Lake Conservation Company would be happy for HRM to quickly come to an agreement.
http://www.williamslakecc.org/

And spend the remaining windfall on the other portion of the backlands, Shaw Group is a willing seller, and the Blue Mountain area.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #28  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2016, 4:30 PM
Dmajackson's Avatar
Dmajackson Dmajackson is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: B3K Halifax, NS
Posts: 9,294
Last I heard $5 million would build out a full on-street bicycle network on the peninsula so that is priority #1.

$15 million could be put towards land purchasing for conservation (Purcell Backlands, Birch Cove, some in Sackville).

The remaining $20 million should be spent on transit improvements. Complete all planned TDM's, upgrade bus stops on key routes in the Regional Centre, and install a bus-only lane on Gottingen.
__________________
NEW!!!Halifax Developments Blog

- DJ
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #29  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2016, 4:46 PM
JET JET is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,811
Use the $ to provide more low cost bus passes, 500 passes is embarrassing.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #30  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2016, 5:58 PM
Keith P.'s Avatar
Keith P. Keith P. is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,964
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmajackson View Post
Last I heard $5 million would build out a full on-street bicycle network on the peninsula so that is priority #1.
That should be priority last. Widening streets beforehand to prepare for the space bike lanes consume should be #1.

Quote:
$15 million could be put towards land purchasing for conservation (Purcell Backlands, Birch Cove, some in Sackville).
How much unused/underused parkland do we need? This is a city, not a nature preserve.

Quote:
The remaining $20 million should be spent on transit improvements. Complete all planned TDM's, upgrade bus stops on key routes in the Regional Centre, and install a bus-only lane on Gottingen.
No real argument there except I would spend part of it on blowing up Metro Transit management and getting some people in high places who know something other than buses/slow ferries.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #31  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2016, 4:21 PM
scryer scryer is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,927
Be careful about glorifying Portland's transit system.... Most of it is grade integrated if I remember correctly; and it is frequently used as a bench-mark for what Vancouver doesn't want because it isn't a fast system.

You don't want to invest in an expensive transit system only to realize 5 or 10 years later that your city actually needed grade-separated technology.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #32  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2016, 4:43 PM
Jstaleness's Avatar
Jstaleness Jstaleness is offline
Jelly Bean Sandwich
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Dartmouth
Posts: 1,672
My goodness I would be happy if they would paint the bloody lines and arrows on our street network. Having just come back from Toronto our lanes are almost indistinguishable. You would think something that makes our streets safer would carry more priority. It's July FFS.
__________________
I can't hear you with my eyes closed
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #33  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2016, 4:49 PM
someone123's Avatar
someone123 someone123 is offline
hähnchenbrüstfiletstüc
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 33,673
Quote:
Originally Posted by scryer View Post
Be careful about glorifying Portland's transit system.... Most of it is grade integrated if I remember correctly; and it is frequently used as a bench-mark for what Vancouver doesn't want because it isn't a fast system.
Vancouver's system is vastly superior (if you happen to live near a station, which a lot of people do) but also more expensive to build. Each SkyTrain line cost the equivalent of $1B+ in today's dollars. Halifax could maybe pay for one or two lines like this but not a comprehensive system, and the $1-2B expense would starve a lot of other infrastructure projects.

Grade-integrated transit can also be fixed piecemeal. Many cities have small tunnels for streetcars, etc. It's true that the max speed of the streetcars is lower than conventional subways or SkyTrain but I don't think that is as important for Halifax.

Halifax's situation is somewhat different because it is smaller and distances are shorter. Most of the inner suburbs that are dense enough to be served with higher-order transit are only 5 km from downtown. In Vancouver or Portland the equivalent neighbourhoods are perhaps 15 km away. Even if you can do an average of only 30 or 40 km/h your 5 km commute will be pretty good. 100 km/h travel speeds that you can get with SkyTrain are not really important. You just need to make sure that, if you have streetcars, they are able to move around.

You could probably get really good service in Halifax with some dedicated lanes, signal priority, and maybe some small tunnels or overpasses to circumvent the really bad bottlenecks. You could also do okay by adding these things for buses.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #34  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2016, 7:42 PM
IanWatson IanWatson is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith P. View Post
How much unused/underused parkland do we need? This is a city, not a nature preserve.
I'm sure Central Park seemed like a lot of unnecessary land at the time or, more locally, Point Pleasant Park. We don't need to put any money into developing it for park space now, just acquiring the land. Once the land is developed for buildings, it's gone.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #35  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2016, 9:01 PM
Keith P.'s Avatar
Keith P. Keith P. is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,964
It is an interesting contrast when you use Central Park as a comparator. That is a remarkable park with all kind of uses. Fields for playing sports, or playing fetch with Fido, rowboats to rent, lots of walking paths with benches and water fountains and amenities, all sorts of things. PPP here has the paths and a few fields but is mostly scrub now that the trees were blown down in the hurricane. The one place to eat was taken over by the theater people and so there are few amenities at all, typical of Halifax. The people advocating for Blue Mountain want it as a nature preserve which means almost no amenities whatsoever and thus very limited use by most of the general public who are not avid backwoods types. I really do not support that. If we are going to spend money on parks they need to be usable spaces for most citizens.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #36  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2016, 9:35 PM
someone123's Avatar
someone123 someone123 is offline
hähnchenbrüstfiletstüc
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 33,673
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith P. View Post
The people advocating for Blue Mountain want it as a nature preserve which means almost no amenities whatsoever and thus very limited use by most of the general public who are not avid backwoods types. I really do not support that. If we are going to spend money on parks they need to be usable spaces for most citizens.
I essentially agree with this. I think there is a valid ecological argument to do with limiting sprawl and encouraging good land use but that is a completely separate question from having the city purchase tracts of land.

Often, setting aside land is worse for the environment because it means development spreads out even farther and people have to travel greater distances. Development of the land also doesn't preclude preserving the lake system or its recreational use. Some of the most heavily-developed lakes in the city also see the most recreational use. If the debate is really about land use then talk about requiring better development. If it's about recreation, then let's see what infrastructure improvements would actually benefit the largest number of people.

If this were a unique habitat that would be a more valid argument but most of the Chebucto peninsula is undeveloped, to say nothing of the rest of NS. Part of Blue Mountain is already preserved and there are preserves around Long Lake and Terence Bay. This sounds, to me, mostly like people wanting the city to pay to preserve their favourite spots, or a misguided attempt to redirect sprawl that might actually be a net negative as far as the environment is concerned.
Reply With Quote
     
     
End
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Atlantic Provinces > Halifax > Transportation & Infrastructure
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 9:12 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.